AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: George F. on June 09, 2009, 10:56:33 PM
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I see there has been some talk about stocking woods, ash was mentioned today, I saw on the "other site" pecan, the walnuts, even apple I heard once, pear, persimion, cherry, I heard someone tried oak, but was extremely hard to work, and my guess, heavy. I guess your everyday domestic woods. I know mahogany isn't a domestic wood, but I have never heard it mentioned. Any opinions? ...Geo.
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Soft and brash. Probably dimensionally stable though. Nice grain and color but not much figure except crotch grain.
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I used to wonder the same thing, but have never ever seen a gun stocked in mahogany. For one thing, it's not a terribly hard wood. For another, the original mahogany (old growth, rain forest) that would have been obtained in the 18th century is now nearly unobtainable on the market. Most of what remains is in small pieces for the luxury guitar trade. The "mahogany" that is commonly available is a lighter, softer wood, as different from the original as cherry is from walnut. It's cheap and available - if you want a slab 4" thick by 10 feet long you can find one. I wouldn't waste my time.
Most of the fruit woods mentioned that sometimes get snickers (apple, etc.) are actually very high quality woods that would be very suitable for stocking, if you could get a piece large enough for a stock blank. Apple is wonderfully dense.
Wallace Gusler showed me a piece of holly just big enough to make a jaeger out of - it was insanely curled, and probably more than 100 years old. It was from a huge, old neglected holly bush he found. Good luck finding anything like that ever again. It would have made a splendid ivory-hard stock that would carve like a dream.
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I have a Remington 1100 20 gauge lightweight made in the 60's or 70's with a factory mahogany stock. It holds two shots only, its light in weight but the wood is unimpressive. I put a figured walnut stock on it. It now looks and shoots good.
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I've made a few electric guitars out of very old pieces of old-growth Honduran mahogany culled from scrapped antique furniture/doors. The newer stuff, which is not terribly hard to get but is pricey (as Ryan mentioned above, due to the Gibson cult ;D) is nothing like the old wood and frankly I'd never want to stock a rifle in even old tight-grained south american mahogany. Too stringy, chippy, light etc. You can get big pieces of Sapele (African 'mahogany') pretty easily, wacky ribbon figure but stinky, bad for your lungs and very unpredictable as to quality of grain, or crappy philippine 'mahogany' (Luan) or various other mahoganies which may or may not be real mahogany. You'd be 1000% better off with a piece of walnut, and I hate walnut, but at least it's hard and it kind of looks like mahogany.
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There was a discussion about mahogany a while back. I have an ugly percussion pistol, made around 1850, that is stocked in mahogany. But, I've never seen a rifle using that wood. I don't think it would be a wise choice.
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I have seen pistols stocked in Ebony.
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A pistol stocked in ebony must of been butt heavy, or just heavy I would think. ...Geo.
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ok so i have some chunks of what i thought was mahogany, but light and soft are the exact opposite of what these are heavy and hard and he11, what do they look like to you all?
dry
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi253.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh45%2Findeediamhe%2Fstuff013.jpg&hash=95b8f45c09b9e06d7feff83f59e576af2ede3b1f)
with some olive oil rubbed on
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi253.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh45%2Findeediamhe%2Fstuff014.jpg&hash=81cf593cba29a816e0f5d85a1187e890fa068408)
second picture shows truer color
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Looks like true mahogany. A great boat building wood and wonderful for furniture too. Seems like it would make a heavy stock . Almost impossible to get now anyway. The stuff sold as mahogany today has a resemblance to the real wood but is softer not very rot resistant. Sometimes you'll see Spanish cedar sold as mahogany but it isn't. Probably isn't really cedar either.
Sort of on the same subject, has anyone run across a wood called mountain mahogany. I believe it grows in the western part of the country and was sometimes used as gunstock wood?
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I’m familiar with Mountain Mahogany. It’s more of a large shrub than an actual tree. I’ve never seen anything remotely big enough to make a rifle stock, but maybe somewhere there are giant Mountain Mahoganys. Mountain Mahogany is in the Family Rosaceae, as are apples and pears. These are good hardwoods, so perhaps Mountain Mahogany is similar.
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To me it looks like Luan, which is kinda brownish. ...Geo.
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I’m familiar with Mountain Mahogany. It’s more of a large shrub than an actual tree. I’ve never seen anything remotely big enough to make a rifle stock, but maybe somewhere there are giant Mountain Mahoganys. Mountain Mahogany is in the Family Rosaceae, as are apples and pears. These are good hardwoods, so perhaps Mountain Mahogany is similar.
There was an old timer some years ago that had a rifle he said was stocked with mountain mahogany. It did look a little bit like mahogany only he had put a dark stain on it so it had to out in bright sun light to see the grain. Very hard wood as I recall.
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Could be luan I guess. There are several woods that mimic mahogany. That's how some people get away with calling various woods mahogany and adding a descriptive to give themselves some wiggle room. That bottom photo does look like it could be real though.
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Zack,
Possibly Lyptus. Normally it's in the red to rust colors but occasionally found in amber, pink & brown. Normally it's fairly straight grained but occasionally you can find it with some curl. Density 40#/ft3, stable & hard.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptusred.jpg&hash=e21aadb71cfb1bb072d3407b41d1e604e8db171b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptusrust.jpg&hash=8871531d815783dbc728bec7f96872d1d10b591c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptusbrown.jpg&hash=3af3e7adb2915d3300ca94805cdf53405de84f9f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptusamber.jpg&hash=999722c3982f2834be18eee415b949accd88f2ce)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptuspink.jpg&hash=92ce90c1d13b199b0bd903414e048010f698b81a)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2Fmarkkw%2FWood%2FLyptuscurly.jpg&hash=f271e1bda358776c96027f0f22becbb44a936041)
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Zack,
Could that teak? I have small pieces left over from a boat repair that someone gave me. I never saw any large pieces.
Bill
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i suppose it could be teak or lyptus, what that piece of board is is the trim piece from coffin wood, a local rendezvous gets chunks like that for firewood, mostly that stuff and walnut, i would hate to have to carry the coffin made out of whatever this piece of wood is (other than as much as it would mean someone i care for is in it) is that that wood already weighs more that a similar sized piece of oak
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Goex, I remember reading somewhere that early furniture makers would call our native cherry "mountain mahogany". Probably trying to make it sound more exotic, good marketing.
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If I'm not mistaken, Herter's used to offer rifle stocks out of mahogany. It was advertised as not being your run of the mill stuff, but strong enough and dense enough for stocks. I have a friend with a ML shotgun stocked in mahogany by Arthur Huscusson in Franklin, NC. I have a ML 12 ga. shotgun finished by him to, but in walnut.
James Levy
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If it's being used by coffin manufacturers, it's being tree-farmed someplace. Many wood importers outright own or have an interest in tree farms in countries like Costa Rica or Brazil. As dense as these 'mahogany-like' woods are (i.e. kumaru) you need to keep your tweezers handy for splinters... don't ask me how I know. :P
If you're looking for sectional density, for firearms stock making, hard maple is your choice. Surely hundreds of years of professional selection and use, for this purpose, should tell us something.
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I have an original 1820's-30's English export fowler, halfstock, stocked in mahogany. This piece seems about the same density as average black walnut. It shrunk considerably over the years, but everything is still solid.
At an antique fair last month I picked up a piece of figured wood, about 14" x 36" by 2". It has amazing figure, but I can't tell what kind of wood it is. I first thought it was mahogany, but the person selling it said it was about 40 years old, cut from a tree in the lower midwest, and stored in a barn until now. Whatever it is, it's dense, more red than american walnut. Any ideas?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy98%2FHelmsDown%2FStock%2520wood%2FIMGP6709.jpg&hash=093d2b1752e6f1abf485aa1bfc6659fc452cae57)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy98%2FHelmsDown%2FStock%2520wood%2FIMGP6711.jpg&hash=9e6432161d0ae5fc7f05db25b3e78de4b4d3c3f3)
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I don't know Eric, It looks like a burl. I see a sap line, like evidence of some damage from a lightning strike at one time. As to species, haven't a clue. ..Geo.
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Eric, I've never seen it that figured, but the bottom photo has qualities that remind me of osage orange. Is it real hard?
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Goex, I remember reading somewhere that early furniture makers would call our native cherry "mountain mahogany". Probably trying to make it sound more exotic, good marketing.
I'll bet that's the answer! Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
Dan
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If I'm not mistaken, Herter's used to offer rifle stocks out of mahogany. It was advertised as not being your run of the mill stuff, but strong enough and dense enough for stocks. I have a friend with a ML shotgun stocked in mahogany by Arthur Huscusson in Franklin, NC. I have a ML 12 ga. shotgun finished by him to, but in walnut.
James Levy
True mahogany, like we used for planking boats was a dense and hard wood. It was available in long clear lengths and a number of thicknesses. Once seasoned it was dimensionally stable and was considered a fine wood for boat building. I have no doubt that this wood could be used for a gunstock, but it would be heavy as sin.
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well i have determined my wood isnt teak, not enough natural oils in it the closest swatch to he grain structure mine has that i can find on the interweb is referred to as african mahogany, whatever that means, no explanation or scientific info just the name
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I'm pretty sure it's not osage orange, the grain feels much more like walnut or (a very twisted) mahogany. Mahogany doesn't fit into the story that it was cut in the US though.
The crack is a drying crack, and fortunately isn't too severe. If I lay two halfstocks in opposite directions, it clears the crack entirely. It'll be beautiful to finish, but a PITA to inlet.
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Hi Folks,
The great furniture wood in the late 18th and early 19th centuries was Cuban mahogany (Swetenia mahogoni). It is dense, hard wood that works well and finsihes beautifully. Unfortunately, it was virtually logged into extinction. You can still get small quantites from places like the island of Palau, where European colonists grew it in plantations. Cuban mahogany would probably make a pretty strong stock and work fairly well (although not nearly as well as English walnut). Wood marketed today as mahogany may be Honduras mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) or wood of closely related genera from Africa and Asia. None can replace Cuban mahogany but you can still find lumber that is dense and hard, even from plantation grown trees. I am using plantation grown Honduras mahogany to build a case for pistols. The wood is wonderful to work and finish. The figure and color are gorgeous, but the wood is fairly soft (like beech) and would not make a good stock. However, it is not junk and for my purposes is entirely satisfactory.
dave
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If Hondurus Mahogany is soft, can it be softer than domestic cherry? ...Geo.
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Around here, beech is very hard and makes great plane bodies and other wood working tools. Too heavy for a gunstock though.
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Goex, where is "around here"? not trying to invade your privacy, just curious about what region beech would be too heavy for a rifle stock
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Eric V - my 2 cents - Looks like stump or crotch cherry to me....................Lynn
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GOEX4fg,
You are right. I was thinking of butternut and basswood, not beech. In fact, many military gunstocks in Europe were beech. The mahogany I am working with reminds me mostly of working with butternut. Both have similar density.
dave
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Western Massachusetts--Connecticut River Valley. Beech trees that I've seen here are hard and heavy. They grow slowly and have thick trunks. When it's seasoned and ready for use, you need to use sharp tools to work it. If you check the better tool catalogues, many of the wooden planes have beechwood bodies.
I suppose that there could be several types of beech trees throughout the country with different qualities stemming from soil conditions, rainfall etc.
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Hickory, black locust, osage orange and beech are rated the heaviest American hardwoods. They all weigh 56 pounds per cubic foot of seasoned wood. Beech has long been used as a stockwood in Europe, especially for military weapons, because it was less costly than some other woods. But I'm not sure of the density of European beech, it may be lighter than ours. Northern European birch was popular to and often has some figure to it.
Dan
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Hi Fellas!.... When I started this, I had no idea there would be such a great response. Some more questions and talk about other woods, which I think are great talking points. It' great to know, that I'm not the only one thinking about such matters. ..Geo.