AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dennis Glazener on December 01, 2018, 08:37:38 PM

Title: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Dennis Glazener on December 01, 2018, 08:37:38 PM
Below are photos of what remains of a southern mountain rifle. It is signed and I hope someone will recognize the initials and/or the folk art markings. If you look at the lock mortise you can see that it was made for a flint rifle but the lock with the rifle now is percussion, assumption is it was converted to percussion. Barrel is approximately .40 - .41 Caliber and is 46.5" long.

Below are the photos that I have.
Dennis

(https://i.ibb.co/Qcx8gwW/1small.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hMTX6zG)

(https://i.ibb.co/LZHw5cb/1gsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FDCvVyN)

(https://i.ibb.co/1rCRyV4/1asmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m9nhZsP)

(https://i.ibb.co/n6fmnSD/1bsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cmv8MFn)

(https://i.ibb.co/QHKhtQm/1csmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2MkRHhK)

(https://i.ibb.co/xmkB9pH/1dsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M8vtwY6)

(https://i.ibb.co/wLcFMTp/1esmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcmwGSk)

(https://i.ibb.co/b2fjZd6/1fsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRm68X1)

(https://i.ibb.co/wdBpN20/1hsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNdgnxf)

(https://i.ibb.co/CBw1VQ8/1ismall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6hx8z3)

(https://i.ibb.co/1Z5SsH8/1jsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xh04mVJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/d5GhHYb/1ksmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FDgPdTs)

(https://i.ibb.co/yXWmfVC/1lsmall.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wRMZ0Yq)

Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: mountainman70 on December 01, 2018, 08:52:18 PM
What an interesting ol warhorse,Dennis. I have nothing to offer cept congrats on rescueing it. The folk art on the barrel would be a nice touch to add to our renditions of these old classics. Was fullstock? You gonna restore? Looks like fun,have a goodun, Dave F 8) 8)
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Hlbly on December 01, 2018, 09:32:18 PM
One possibility is John Whiteside, Abingdon, VA. It would be one of his earlier guns.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: bgf on December 01, 2018, 09:45:06 PM
Also thinking maybe John Wilson ("Botetourt" County, Va, acc. to Noble).  Was the first one I thought of when I saw the buttstock and cheekpiece, but I can't locate any pictures of his rifle right now.

Any decorations on muzzle?
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: David R. Pennington on December 01, 2018, 10:21:53 PM
From here looks like 3 initials. Maybe J W L ?
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Dennis Glazener on December 01, 2018, 10:24:53 PM
Quote from: Hlbly on December 01, 2018, 09:32:18 PM
One possibility is John Whiteside, Abingdon, VA. It would be one of his earlier guns.

I thought about him but I once owned a John Whiteside flint and the only thing similiar was the buttplate. The front trigger on mine was round, the guard was different and it had a beaver-tail cheekrest.  Its the only Whiteside rifle I can remember seeing.

If you look close at the initials they are J. W. and what looks like a crude G, not sure if that was meant to be a letter or?

This gun spent many of its latter years with a family in western NC.

Dennis
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on December 01, 2018, 11:18:03 PM
Dennis, I recall seeing a gun with similar decorating at the Norris Show. Ian was there and may recall who had it. It may have been David Byrd. Let me dig through my notes and see what I can come up with.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Molly on December 02, 2018, 12:28:28 AM
I have a hard time thinking Wilson would have done all that "art work" on the barrel.  But then it might also have been a personalization by an owner following it being made.  One of my trusted experts tells me Wilson's rear sights were unique and "always the same".  There is no similarity in that rear sight to what Wilson's were supposed to be.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Hlbly on December 02, 2018, 12:34:04 AM
Yep.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on December 02, 2018, 01:11:22 AM
Dennis, could it have been made by a Lewis? The rifle I mentioned was made by a Lewis, but I didn’t note which one.
Bill
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Shreckmeister on December 02, 2018, 01:46:15 AM
I agree that it’s JWL. Maybe Ambrose Lawings relative
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Dennis Glazener on December 02, 2018, 03:07:49 AM
Quote from: Sequatchie Rifle on December 02, 2018, 01:11:22 AM
Dennis, could it have been made by a Lewis? The rifle I mentioned was made by a Lewis, but I didn’t note which one.
Bill
Thanks Bill I will check with Ian and see w hat he remembers.
Dennis
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Mark Elliott on December 02, 2018, 03:58:54 AM
I also think the initials are J.W.L .    It is a great old gun.  I like the decoration.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Dennis Glazener on December 02, 2018, 04:14:03 AM
Quote from: mountainman70 on December 01, 2018, 08:52:18 PM
What an interesting ol warhorse,Dennis. I have nothing to offer cept congrats on rescueing it. The folk art on the barrel would be a nice touch to add to our renditions of these old classics. Was fullstock? You gonna restore? Looks like fun,have a goodun, Dave F 8) 8)
Not mine Dave a gentleman got in touch with me to see if it was a Gillespie.
Dennis
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Dennis Glazener on December 02, 2018, 04:23:58 AM
The owner just told me that it appears to have the number 383 on the face of the muzzle. I asked him to see if he could get a photo of it.
Dennis
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: Hlbly on December 02, 2018, 07:48:33 AM
Initials are J W. If you look in front of the “J”, you will see the faint remains of the same line that you can see behind the “W”. The designs in front of and behind the initials are identical.
Title: Re: Southern folk art - can you help with ID
Post by: bgf on December 03, 2018, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Hlbly on December 02, 2018, 07:48:33 AM
Initials are J W. If you look in front of the “J”, you will see the faint remains of the same line that you can see behind the “W”. The designs in front of and behind the initials are identical.

I think I agree: Though I don't see a line to the left of the J (just being honest), the line, L or G or whatever doesn't seem to be made the same way (different hand and/or tool?) as the J*W* and is not followed clearly by the same dot...

383 on the muzzle is interesting, as one group of dots left of the J seems to form a 3 if I squint :).

On the other hand, there is a James (?) Lewis listed in Noble working in North Carolina and Carter County, TN.
 Another Lewis gun with similar decorations is compelling.