AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on December 27, 2018, 01:42:31 PM
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Well hello, pards! :)
Looking for some info on historical powder horns straps. Now it seems some say they were always attached to the bag, others say some did and some had the strap separate. Any proof as to which is right?
If separate straps did exist, what were they like? Leather, cloth, both? Any surviving horn straps left? Just another curious question from yours truly. Thanks so much, all!
-Smokey
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I don't have any proof but have been told many times that straps attached to bags are a very late trend and almost all early bag horn sets have seperate straps. I have owned two original NC bag/horn sets and on both sets the horn had seperate straps. Have seen several other original sets from NC/VA/PA that were the same way.
Dennis
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I don't have any proof but have been told many times that straps attached to bags are a very late trend and almost all early bag horn sets have seperate straps. I have owned two original NC bag/horn sets and on both sets the horn had seperate straps. Have seen several other original sets from NC/VA/PA that were the same way.
Dennis
I see! Were these straps of cloth, or leather, or something totally different?
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Could be either, store bought leather, homemade either and them some. May also have been a combination and as the bag aged the strap material may have changed. As Dennis said time frame and location enter into the mix also, that goes for decoration and style also.
I'm not sure you can put a definitive time frame on it.
Tim
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There is some limited evidence that horns were attached to bags as early as the mid-18th century - there is a French illustration from the mid-1750s showing a Cherokee with what could be interpreted as a horn-bag ensemble. Also, Wallace Gusler wrote in one of his articles in Muzzleblasts that there were a couple of probate inventories from before the Revolution that listed a rifle and all its associated paraphernalia except the horn, and he suggests that that could be because the horn was attached to the pouch and thus only listed as "bag." OTOH, there are horns with surviving separate straps dating from all over the place, and lots of bags surviving that don't have a attached horn.
So, as far as I can tell either way is probably correct, or at least justifiable, for any place along the longrifle chronology.
As for material, while originals are scarce, I think that leather, homespun linen/hemp webbing, and fingerwoven wool are attested either from surviving pieces or in original sources (Doddridge recounts weaving straps as a boy c. 1780 or so). For your late flint Eastern rifle I'd go with either leather or a plain hemp/linen strap. I use 1" hemp webbing from Turkeyfoot Traders, and it is about as simple and functional as one could wish for.
You really ought to get a copy of Madison Grant's The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch - it isn't a perfect resource by any means, but there is very little written about the subject and it is a good starting point. Also these articles: http://ehcnc.org/decorative-arts/historic-trades/
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I don't/won't put horn straps on a bag unless the customer absolutely has to have it as I dont think enough evidence exists to support it for the 18th century but it could have been a thing.. I think a leather strap is the most efficient, practical and easiest to justify historically.
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;) ;)... thanx for the link to this site, Nathan,... good pix and descriptions... I checked out several other subjects there also,.. the "+" icon on the side is a great feature to view enlarged pix,... !!!
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;) ;)... thanx for the link to this site, Nathan,... good pix and descriptions... I checked out several other subjects there also,.. the "+" icon on the side is a great feature to view enlarged pix,... !!!
I have to agree with this, if you did not look at the link you are missing some Good information. The Trumbo family is mentioned in the article on bags, Wood Trumbo is the one that got me started in this, he had a wonderful collection of related items from the Valley.
Tim C.
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I want to thank Elnathan for his link to the historic trades and arts site. So much information and wonderful pictures. I have already spent a lot of time and data perusing this site. Anyone interested in bags and accoutrements would be well served checking it out. Thanks again to Elnathan.
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Towards the bottom if this link, you get into hunting pouches and some have horns on the pouch strap.
https://www.scribd.com/document/248435837/Sports-Sportsmen-Hunting-Part-II
Mike
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I have heard the same thing as Dennis, but I recall a talk that Wallace Gusler gave a number of years ago where he referenced period sources mentioning mid 18th century longhunters with horns attached to their bags. That is the reason I normally attach horns to my early VA bags. I wish I had the primary reference information, but I don't. We have plenty of original 19th century bags with horns attached.
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I don't attach my horn to the bag. I prefer the horn to not be carried over the bag as it is in the way when trying to get into the bag. Also, with the horn on a separate strap, it can be swung up to my face to extract the peg. And some of my horns want to be on the other side according to their twist.
Having the bag attached to the horn, though, ensures you have the right horn for the appropriate bag.
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Somewhere there is/was an article ( I'll look for it tomorrow) that mentioned the fact that horns were on separate straps so they could be collected and refilled, as in Militia groups. The idea that a persons name was carved on their horn "Tim Crosby His Horn" gave some credit to that idea. The Civilian Militia, supplying their own arms has been around in North America for a while.
Tim C.
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Most of my horn straps are of leather, though I've used woven straps too. My leather ones usually have a buckle in the back so I can adjust for summer/winter. I like to carry my horn right up high between my arm pit and my hip, right on my ribs...well above the bag.