AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Vestvol on January 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM
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So I’m an newly 1/2 way through my first kit. I have a couple of small gaps in the inletting for the barrel Tang and the trigger guard. I read the tutorial about using Epoxy and saw dust to fill small inletting issues and have a couple of questions for this august group.
1. Is Acraglass Epoxy from Brownell’s a good epoxy for this task or is their a better choice?
2. Do I stain the saw dust before mixing with the epoxy or will it take a stain when I finish the gun and stain?
3. If I need to stain the sawdust first, how do I stain the dust?
Thanks for any help,
Unskilled
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Depending on the gaps I would first try using thin wood slivers glued in the gaps with a wood glue or CA glue but you may have to stain the slivers first. Use a wood plane or chisel to get the thin slivers. Acraglass will be noticeable even when stained - again depending how large your gaps are.
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Hi,
Paul has the right idea. But first, are the gaps bigger than 1/64" or so? If not, the wood will swell when stain and finish is applied and the gaps disappear. If they need to be filled, use slivers of wood. For tiny jobs, I use super glue to attach the slivers rather than epoxy or wood glue. The sawdust glue method does not work very well and you have to stain the sawdust first before adding glue. Therefore, you have to guess about a color that will blend in with the stock stain or color. I would avoid using sawdust and glue.
dave
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For tang gaps I put in little wedges and use super glue most of the time. When I cut off the extra wedge wood, I file down the extra on the inside of the inlet as well. When I file the wedge to get down to the level of the tang I have new bare wood that stains easily.
Being a beginner wood hack I still have gaps when I least expect it, mostly on tangs for some reason, I get everything else tight.
Here is before and after a couple of guns ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/Fmc1sxT/tang-shims-006.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/Czrr72b/tang-patch.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Not sure how large a gap you have. Peening the metal may be an option.
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My error is maybe 1/32 I like the wedge method. It just gets a little “loose” at the end closest to the breech. If it was not there I might notice it as much.
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By the way I have no hope of such a skilled repair. I cannot even see thee fix in your picture. Some of you are just amazing craftsmen, and make it look so easy.
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I like the sliver of wood and super glue method because I have so much experience with it. ;D If the gap is real small I like to glue in a stained sliver just a tad thicker than the gap and then when it has cured scrape it down to the right thickness and re-stain the patch.
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You might try soaking the area with water first, the wood may swell and fill the gap all by it's self.
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Can you show us some pictures? That might help.
Norm
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I will take pictures tomorrow this has beeen so helpful to this novice
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Guys,
Thanks for the help. I am a total novice and reading, watching YouTube and visiting here.
(https://i.ibb.co/FW3WwWg/E0413-B51-4-F92-4698-88-F1-CAC245-BE5-F2-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcQcNcr)
(https://i.ibb.co/720KnLj/CB2-C9-A79-986-F-4941-B0-F4-5-C5885-B28-C0-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YpVhcwP)
(https://i.ibb.co/5r869Lj/68-AB23-B5-E859-4125-B960-2-DB7039-C0-D1-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N9js3KN)
(https://i.ibb.co/6NdKcnQ/9-FEF722-F-BDA5-4-AAD-A4-BA-B020-E6-E055-D7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvGTDkK)
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Three things come to mind, upon seeing your pictures:
1) Your chisels have to be sharper
2) Often, commercially available parts need to be bent to follow certain curves - your trigger plate is an example. The tail end should have been bent into a bit more of an arc to follow the profile of the stock wood. Then you wouldn't be below the surface at the rear end. But in your case, it shouldn't matter, since your trigger guard will likely cover that area.
3) Over local hardwood dealer sells maple veneer - yours might as well. Buy some and cut it into strips that will be glued into the caverns alongside your tang. Use Titebond glue and wedge the veneer strips in while the glue sets.
4) Take a scraper and remove all that black on the wood. I know, I said three things.
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If you are using inleting black, try using less. Some times when and if you use too much you will get false readings and then you take more wood out than needed so you get gaps. Been there done that.
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Smylee hit on what I was going to mention. Judging by how black the stock is, that is likely the culprit with the inletting gaps. Especially with the gaps being somewhat uniform.
It doesn't take much transfer color on the part.
Also, inletting drafts really help on the inside of the part.
You don't wanna remove ALL the black off the insides of the inlet...if you don't have color, you have a gap.
We've all (well... probably all) been there.
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The advice above is all good, particularly the sharp tools part. You need them to be really sharp.
Here's a bit of additional advice:
Once you fix those inlets, and before you inlet anything else on the gun, practice on some scrap wood. Use maple if you can, or just get a scrap of good hard wood. Then practice inletting on it. You can try practice with scrap metal that you have lying around, or just get some from your local big-box store. It would be worth practicing inletting various thicknesses of metal as well - in other words, something thick as a trigger plate or tang, as well as something thinner like a .040 thick brass inlay.
As stated above, put a small amount of draft (or bevel) on the edges of the piece to be inlet. That will go a long way. And use way less inletting black.
I'm not great at inletting, and my first inlets looked pretty much like yours. A bit of practice really helps, and it's dirt cheap to practice with scrap, and time well invested.
Hope this helps,
Norm
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If you are using inleting black, try using less. Some times when and if you use too much you will get false readings and then you take more wood out than needed so yo get gaps. Been there done that.
I agree and i use a very small kerosene burner 1/4" diameter wick works real well for me ,hold part in flame till a little black easy to co
ntrol how much black you apply i will not use paste type inletting compound tooo messy. You can use a candle works pretty good too.
And tool sharpness i am constantly sharping my old home made tools when inletting and i take frequent rest periods.
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Two major problems. You're using WAY too much inletting black. WWWAAAYYY too much. Also, you are removing and re installing your parts incorrectly and leaving false witness marks. The barrel has to go straight in and come straight back out NO BOBBLING AROUND. I'd go with gluing in wedges now. Stain the area and the wedges before you glue. Once this is fixed. SLOW DOWN AND BE CAREFUL. THINK ABOUT HOW YOU'RE REMOVING AND INSTALLING PARTS. What has more inletting black on it after a work session? You or the gun? I'll bet equal amounts.....
Read my tutorial, I may or may not show how I remove and reinstall barrels during tang inletting, I don't remember if I covered it.. I've seen work this bad before so don't panic.
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I ain't done yet... when things go off the rails this bad STOP. Ask your self why this is happening and remedy the problem before you keep plowing on. There is no reason for things to get this bad.
I think I need to start teaching again. Looks like I'll need a bottle of Kentucky's finest to get through the day. ;D
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I've gotten away form soot and goop for spotting stuff. Big fat markers work better for me. They only leave a mark where where there is definite hard contact. They also don't leave a mess.
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Only comment I have is PATIENCE .take your time. Most of us have made our fair share of blunders. Scary sharp tools and PATIENCE really make a big
difference in the out come of your build. Don't ask how I know..! Ha Ha
Last take a look at Mike Brooks tutorial. There are other tutorials that will help you too . Keep asking for help because these guy's know there stuff..!
Oldtravler
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Thanks for all the advice and help. I will say that the inletting black looks worse in the picture, my son helped me by getting the paint brush and painting my 8mm chisel handle. I wiped it off the chisel and my hands but it still turned my hands black and everywhere I put my hand got dirty. It actually happened when I was working on the butt plate, however, the neck was a place I kept touching.
I definitely made mistake of pulling the barrel in and out making false marks, and taking off inletting black off the sides when I should have been going down was the biggest issue.
I am embarrassed to say the issue with the trigger plate was dumber. I put it in backwards, was proud of myself until I realized I was a dummy. The front was bigger so I could hide the error in the front the back is just crooked.
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Hi Vestvol,
First off, welcome to ALR. You are in the right place now. The above advice is on the money. There's no need to be embarrassed. We've all had our "duh!" moments. Slow down, have fun. Glad to have you with us.
-Ron
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If your using wood wedges/patches, if you try to orient the grain of the patch the same as the stock it will help it stain the same, and hide it. For instance, don’t put in a wedge with the end grain pointing up and down, or it will stain much darker than the rest of your slab or quarter sawn stock.
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Thanks for the advice Top Jaw. I will pos pictures of the fix for critique.
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Regardless which inletting medium you choose do not necessarily remove every mark. Read the mark and determine why it is there. Mike noted taking lthe barrel straight in or out for example. The marks are just that -marks. They are giving you some information which you need to translate / evaluate.
Chisels need to be shaper. Also, it makes a difference which direction the bevel side of the chisel faces. The bevel side tends to push wood sideways which needs to be toward the waste side of the inlet usually.
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Another suggestion I would add to those above is to use rasps and files to remove wood for shaping rather than chisels. Rasps and files are more forgiving when the grain changes than a chisel would be.
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for lifting the barrel in/out I have a couple of magnets from Harbor freight that have metal handles on them. 1/2''x 2''. attached to top of barrel allows the barrel to be lifted straight up. On smaller parts I'll use a screw or paper clip etc. that will fit into a hole or slot to lift up and out. keep practicing. And like Mike said, when things go south stop and think through what's happening.
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Thanks Rich I like the magnet idea and I have a harbor freight just down the street sounds like a good reason to make a trip. Maybe some other necessities might end up in my cart.
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So I made the repair. I still have some work to do near the breach and on the other side of the tang. This is my first woodworking project so I had a lot of trial and error. Probably more error than trail. I am already planning my next rifle, I have learned what not to do on this one. You can obviously see the epoxy line, and shaping the bottom contour of the wedge was tedious. I found some small rasps maybe 1/4 inches wide by 6 inches long that are so much easier to use in a tight space when inletting. Whoever suggested that thank you.
(https://i.ibb.co/WkTQwqm/A994-BD6-F-5-BF8-4-BD7-8814-A331-E18-A3-BEF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R351mZR)
(https://i.ibb.co/c8xjLL5/FC08-D2-E9-8511-4-B46-933-B-5281-CFD4447-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QHX4ddB)
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Looks like if you stain her dark she ought to look o.k. ! :)
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Where are you? Maybe is someone close by that could offer in person pointers
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I don't see where anyone covered this yet but it could be important and was good advice that I received. There comes a time when the inletting material will leave a false mark on the sides. Once the piece starts fitting into the slot, work on removing the bottom marks and leaving the side marks alone. The metal is going to have a tight fit and the more material you remove from the sides, the bigger gap you are creating. This tutorial by Mike Brooks has been a savior for many who like making rifles and a wrecking ball on my wallet. :)
http://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/tutorial.pdf