AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Justin Urbantas on June 23, 2019, 05:19:52 PM
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A few people suggested the cock on the Davis Twigg lock is not quite correct. I don't want to wait 2 years to get one from TRS, or make one from scratch, so I am going to compare it to others in my Track catalogue to see what might work, from a Davis, L&R or Chambers lock. Any suggestions?
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I already made a suggestion, I don't have anymore.
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I would suggest against trying to swap out the cock. You might take a marginal design to a lower level.
What type of project are you designing?
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I would suggest against trying to swap out the cock. You might take a marginal design to a lower level.
What type of project are you designing?
Hey Ron. I'm working on something similar to this. An early half-stock. It seems the Twigg lock is closest to the original. http://www.sitemason.com/page/gBGD96
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Looking back a few posts, I spotted yours with photos of you half stock English project. My students built a half stock English Rifle at the NMLRA 2017 seminar. We used the Chambers Late Ketland lock, which was very close to the original Stedenmayer Rifle that was our model. Curtis Alison has posted photos of his finished combo rifle and fowler started in this class. You might enjoy reveiwing his very successful finished project.
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Justin, I examined the photos of the fine flintlock sold by Lewis Drake. I see that some of the features of the Twigg are similar to the original flintlock. I would be remiss in not stating my opinion that you would be sacrificing function for an esthetic form. My experience would suggest you will get a better performance from the Early Ketland. Some of the features of the original can be filed into the Early Ketland.
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Thank you Ron. From what I've heard, the Chamber's Ketland is the finest lock around. I have one reserved for my personal gun that I will be building next. This current project is a practice gun for the next one I will make for myself. Sort of a way to make a bit of money, and learn the nuances of putting on a horn nosecap, soldered rib, and all the other things different from a typical full stock longrifle. I am mostly trying to make the Twigg lock as good as can be, for what it is.
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The David Twigg lock is a very large lock. It would benefit from a hand forged new mainspring, to match the lock's mass. Years ago I built a half stalked fowling piece using one of them, and it that case, the lock functioned superbly, but it is the only one I've seen that did. I have a Davis Twigg lock in my lock drawer that was rebuilt by Bob Roller, and re-frizzened by Larry Mrock from the Mould and Gun Shop, but it is still a marginal sparker. I shall use it to re-build a flint Hawken that I built in the late 70's...a big rifle.
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A Twigg lock on a Hawken would be interesting Taylor. Would you re-shape the plate? Anyways, this particular lock is an excellent sparker, as you can see by these pics. Looking at the TOW catalogue, it looks like a Chamber's late Ketland cock may work.
(https://i.ibb.co/7jtw8C1/20190623-120732-005-saved.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k52RkBS)
(https://i.ibb.co/P5kdD79/20190623-120529-006-saved.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HrZjhWx)
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Justin,
I used a copy of the Nock lock similar to the lock in your attachment in reply #3 a few years back. It was a good performing lock and was quick and reliable. Since that time, I have tried to get another from the supplier, and I don't think he builds them anymore. I have attached a photo of the lock for comparison. I rounded the tail of the lock plate to use on this mountain rifle. I found one of the locks after a few years of looking, and am in process of building a rifle with it now. I couldn't find any of the normal suppliers that have had the lock and got this one from an individual at a show.
Roger Sells
(https://i.ibb.co/581jjd8/bm-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XsW559s)
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This current project is a practice gun for the next one I will make for myself. Sort of a way to make a bit of money, and learn the nuances of putting on a horn nosecap, soldered rib, and all the other things different from a typical full stock longrifle. I am mostly trying to make the Twigg lock as good as can be, for what it is.
So if this project is a "practice" gun, that you are just going to sell, why are you getting so wrapped around the axle over the cock? Chances are the clientele you are trying to attract to this gun will not notice or care about the cock. I understand you will know, but save your efforts for the important learned lessons. As you stated, you are trying to fry bigger fish in this endeavor. If it were my project, I would of spent more time worrying about getting the horn tipped ramrod and horn nose cap right over a cock on a lock. Epoxying horn to wood is not exactly "period correct". I.E. the tip of the ramrod should of been split and a wedge used to hold the tip on.
David
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That's fair. I'm not too concerned about the cock. The lock sparks well enough. I did split the ramrod tip, and use a wedge. Just used epoxy for extra security. What is your technique for attaching a horn nose cap?
(https://i.ibb.co/XsmC6rC/20190620-132021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k8YSzsS)
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The David Twigg lock is a very large lock. It would benefit from a hand forged new mainspring, to match the lock's mass. Years ago I built a half stalked fowling piece using one of them, and it that case, the lock functioned superbly, but it is the only one I've seen that did. I have a Davis Twigg lock in my lock drawer that was rebuilt by Bob Roller, and re-frizzened by Larry Mrock from the Mould and Gun Shop, but it is still a marginal sparker. I shall use it to re-build a flint Hawken that I built in the late 70's...a big rifle.
I have found from long experience that these frizzens range in performance from
poor to superb.The poor ones will be carbon deficient and the superb ones will be
hardened. The Twigg I saw at Friendship acouple of weeks ago was one of the 14
I made and it was a hot sparker.I did nothing to any of the frizzens and would have
rehardend them if they appeared to be substandard.The Shoults lock had frizzens
that were originally cast from 8620 which is fine for the plate and cock but no good
for frizzens and had to be case hardened again after about 100 shots.There were
others that did not have to be redone for whatever reason.A California shooter kept
a log book on one of these locks and recorded 15,000 shots and he asked me if I
could recondition it.I did that and fitted another frizzen as well. I have heard no more
from him and that was in 1987.
Bob Roller
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I did some modifications to a Chambers Late Ketland for a half stock rifle I have in the works. Thought I would show you what I did to modify the look the lock.
First, the "hook" at the top of the existing cock turns backward. Just personal preference, but I like the look of the "hook" turning forward. Harder to do, but it looks more graceful to me. Here is how the cock came on the lock:
(https://preview.ibb.co/npuAFF/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Cock.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jV1qFF)
I TIG welded a blob of steel on the top of the cock. Here is how it looked before filing.....the look I was going for is shown at the right on another cock I made many years ago:
(https://preview.ibb.co/dxVvhv/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Cock_Mod_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kejz9a)
After a little grinding and filing, it came out like this:
(https://preview.ibb.co/hyQWpa/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Cock_Mod_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/isRFFF)
I like the look of a more "waterproof" pan, so I decided to modify that as well. Here is the pan the way the lock comes....
(https://preview.ibb.co/d0cpaF/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Pan_Mod_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kS9fhv)
After some filing and polishing, it looks like this.....
(https://preview.ibb.co/hPGRNv/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Pan_Mod_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c8vxUa)
I don't have all the parts done yet, but this photo shows the plate with the modified pan and the cock with the altered curl at the top......
(https://preview.ibb.co/c39KaF/Chambers_Late_Ketland_Pan_Cock_Mod.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kdP7Ua)
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Dave - you are a specialist. The pan & cock came out VERY nicely indeed.
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That looks great Dave. The blacksmith in me wonders if I can do that without welding. Just some light hammering and scrolling pliers.
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Daryl,
Thanks....haven't decided if I want to spend the time to cut a moulding all around the edge of the plate and the cock yet, but I like the way the pan and the top of the cock came out.
Justin,
The top of the cock is just a personal preference.....I think the cock the way it comes from Chambers would be fine. Or you can torch weld the extra material on the top...wouldn't need to TIG weld it. Not sure if the casting has enough material just to reshape the top by forging
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Justin,
Not sure if you are familiar with Chris Hirsch but he has a lot of reproduction lock castings available as complete lock sets or individual parts. He might have something that would work for you. I have attached a link to his web site. http://www.texasguntrade.com/
David
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I PM’d that the RE Davis Contract rifle lock has a cock that may be worth a look see.
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I PM’d that the RE Davis Contract rifle lock has a cock that may be worth a look see.
Good luck getting through to R.E. Davis. I have been trying for over a year to get a new tumbler for their early English flintlock. I have called, left messages etc. to no avail.
David
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Hi Justin: You might consider giving Cabin Creek Muzzleloading a call. If you send them the lock they might be able to fabricate just what you want. It would only cost a phone call to find out.
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I PM’d that the RE Davis Contract rifle lock has a cock that may be worth a look see.
Good luck getting through to R.E. Davis. I have been trying for over a year to get a new tumbler for their early English flintlock. I have called, left messages etc. to no avail.
David
It seems like Davis locks are sub-par compared with other production locks, from what I hear.
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There are a couple that draw critique. Several others are great choices in my view. I have 12 locks in the parts bin. The best 2 sparkers are Davis locks. Their bridle-less pan, round faced English trade lock with the cast-in engraving and their colonial Germanic lock out-spark the rest out of the box. Could be luck of the draw and with another dozen assorted locks perhaps everyone’s favorites would out perform the Davis locks.
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Good luck getting through to R.E. Davis.
I use a lot of Davis locks and find them to be of high quality. For a production lock, their Alex Henry lock approaches Roller quality and I've used a number of their Jaeger locks with good success.
HOWEVER, ( this is just an impression), he had practically no inventory at Friendship and made the comment about having trouble finding lock assemblers. I looked at an Alex Henry lock which he had there and it was poorly assembled....very rough with numerous filing gouges thruout. He may have fallen on bad times due to employee problems.....again just an impression. Alternatively, he may be having foundry problems which other lock sellers seem to be experiencing. Perhaps a double whammy.
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Here is a photo or two of the Chambers late Ketland that I modified a bit and added a stalking safety to.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lrwkt2h/P4181177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qCGysPF)
(https://i.ibb.co/gtDzCj9/P4181181.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TPHm5v2)
Curtis
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There are a couple that draw critique. Several others are great choices in my view. I have 12 locks in the parts bin. The best 2 sparkers are Davis locks. Their bridle-less pan, round faced English trade lock with the cast-in engraving and their colonial Germanic lock out-spark the rest out of the box. Could be luck of the draw and with another dozen assorted locks perhaps everyone’s favorites would out perform the Davis locks.
Ditto. I'd add the late ketland with the square tail to the list of good sparkers from Davis too. The other flint offerings I don't like much.
D. Rase: I have always left a message with Tim and have always got a call back with in a couple days at most. Maybe he just doesn't like you.....
To the OP, there is a big difference in time period between the early and late Ketlands, also depends on the mounts you plan on using. Let us know which trigger guard and buttplate and we can line you up with the correct lock. I'd put the late ketland post 1800....and there is a certain set of mounts and stock style that go with it.. The early Ketland is more of a Rev war period lock and that era of English gun is sensitive to the mounts and stock style too. You can't just use a jumble of various period parts on these. Well, you could, but it's not very interesting when you do that sort of thing.
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The L&R small Manton with an upgraded mechanism usually is a good sparking lock
when used with the thin amber flints.I have made a number of these over a period
of years and so far no complaints----yet. :)
Bob Roller
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There are a couple that draw critique. Several others are great choices in my view. I have 12 locks in the parts bin. The best 2 sparkers are Davis locks. Their bridle-less pan, round faced English trade lock with the cast-in engraving and their colonial Germanic lock out-spark the rest out of the box. Could be luck of the draw and with another dozen assorted locks perhaps everyone’s favorites would out perform the Davis locks.
D. Rase: I have always left a message with Tim and have always got a call back with in a couple days at most. Maybe he just doesn't like you.....
Could be, I am from the left coast. ::)
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Here is a photo or two of the Chambers late Ketland that I modified a bit and added a stalking safety to.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lrwkt2h/P4181177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qCGysPF)
(https://i.ibb.co/gtDzCj9/P4181181.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TPHm5v2)
Curtis
You did a marvelous job on that lock, and the gun in general, Curtis. I'd love to see more pics of it.
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Thanks Justin! I haven't had the chance to take good photos of the gun yet, when I do I will post pics either here or on the contemporary maker's blog.
Curtis