AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: fdf on July 09, 2009, 09:04:51 PM
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I was listening to a couple of guys talk about refurbishing used flints.
One guy said he napped them and the other one said he had a better way. He said he used a EZ Lap Diamond Sharpening store (embedded with diamond chips) to resurface the edge/face of a flint.
I have knapping hammer and I have no idea what to do with it.
I found my above mentioned stone and tried a large and small flint, kind of like knife sharpening. In short order the edge of the flint looks like it was cut by a machine. The face of the flint surface is smooth, even, straight and sharp. It only took a short time on each flint.
Anyone else do this on used flints?
To be honest is seems awful easy and mistake proof compared to napping, especially when you do not know how to knap.
fdf
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If you're in the woods or anyplace it's not convenient to carry an EZLap stone, a knapping hammer or knapping awl will touch up the edge pretty quickly. Here's a link that shows how to do it:
http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no4/articles/mbo44-3.shtml
I've never tried the EZ Lap method, but at the price of flint these days I may try it. I assume you've tried your flints and get decent sparks?
SCL
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I have a couple of such diamond files/stones. They do work although it seems the knapping gives a sharper edge than does said diamond file/stone. Takes a while and my clumsy fingers have a slight problem holding the flint to sharpen with the dia. Never tried it in the lock. I simply knapp with a knapper that is wide enough to cover the full edge width at the same time.. gives a pretty straight edge except that flint that decides to be stubborn... seems more important and usefull to use that dia stone to flatten those spalls that have an uneven hump that causes the flint to mount in the jaws lopsided.
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A 'filed' edge will not have the sharp molecular level 'break' as given by knapping. i suspect in a shot or two, the edge will self-knap to just such a level.
I've used the green stone on the grinder to level such flints as Roger spoke of, those with an offside lump.
When a flint stops sparking, if you take the time to look the edge over, you'll usually see one spot where there's a hard spot that is gliding down the frizzen and not sparking. This will also show on the face of the frizzen. Knock off that one spot and the flint continues to spark well. Knapping the entire surface is mostly a waste of flint life.
Allowing the flint to contact the frizzen, see where it's touching- that's the spot that needs knapping, not the whole edge. Sometimes it IS the whole edge that needs it, but moslty it's only one spot.
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Thanks to Roundball, about three years ago I bought a bag of 1000 BEF's, and have 200 French amber for my two fuzee's, plus a few dozen from Rich Pierce in odd sizes(I think he took my name in vain doing those small ones). So it's simple as I get on average 75 shots per flint, I just change them out, though I do occasionally touch them up with a brass hammer. At 62 I think I have a lifetime supply. Field Knapping is easy for me, maybe I come by it naturally.
Bill Knapp
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"The way I do it at the range for example is to have the empty rifle laying on the bench on its belly """(or a towel draped across the pan and vent if its loaded), bring the hammer back to full cock""".
"or a towel draped across the pan and vent if its loaded), bring the hammer back to full cock"
With the above recommendation, working on a flint lock with the hammer at full cock and loaded , I am glad I do not shoot next to you or on the same range.
This violates all the range rules that I have been around.
fdf
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fdf, that's fine, I'll shoot next to Roundball any time. First off his rifle would be pointed safely down range, and secondly he would be doing it because he had a worn flint that wasn't sparking, and he's using a brass rod that doesn't spark anyway. How else are you going to clear the gun short of using CO2, or a ball puller which I consider less safe. At the Sgt York shoot there were 18 failure to fire, all were cap guns, the flints that failed to fire were quickly resolved with a quick Knapping. There were almost 200 shooters.
Bill
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"How else are you going to clear the gun short of using CO2, or a ball puller which I consider less safe."
All I asked was a question and I get lectures, "How else are you going to clear the gun short of using CO2, or a ball puller which I consider less safe".
What does your above comments have to do with diamond stones????????
"The time I spent answering your post was about trying to help you learn how to knapp a flint"
Again, I simply asked a question, not on how to knap a flint, if I wanted to know how, I would have asked how to knap a flint..
I guess this is not a site for a person to learn from, only rude answers come forth by some .
fdf
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fdf, Roundball's tutorial on knapping a flint in a loaded gun is both correct & quite safe (as long as safe muzzle control is maintained of course) and is acceptable anywhere I've shot. In fact a range officer who admonished anyone knapping safely as Roundball described, wouldn't keep his job long in these parts. I think you came on a bit strong & the reaction to that was equally strong. I would add to our friend Roundball's tutorial that brushing the prime from the pan is always a good plan, both to prevent any unlikely sparks from discharging the gun as well as courtesy to others to your lock's side as those flakes of flint propelled out of the pan by the charge would be painful at best! Safety is paramount in our sport & the technique presented here is sound. I hope you don't take any of this as "lecturing", I can say with all certainty it is offered freely from our collective experience. :)
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Roundball,
Good post,good explanation on knapping. I do it much the same. Try a piece of copper rod,say 1/2" if by chance you have some. I have one 1/2"by 2 1/2" with a turnscrew as a handle.I like the way copper nibbles the edge.I put my left forefinger under the edge and strike downward lightly as you do.
fdf,
If the EZ lap works for you that's good.I've never tried it.Here on this site we strive for "period correctness" and knapping your flint on a flintlock go hand in hand.They did it "back then" so we carry on the tradition now. Roundball and Bill are being helpfull, don't twist this around.
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Good suggestion LB! I too use a copper rod & it works VERY well. I think the soft metal deadens the light taps more & gives a lot more control.
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"How else are you going to clear the gun short of using CO2, or a ball puller which I consider less safe."
All I asked was a question and I get lectures, "How else are you going to clear the gun short of using CO2, or a ball puller which I consider less safe".
What does your above comments have to do with diamond stones????????
"The time I spent answering your post was about trying to help you learn how to knapp a flint"
Again, I simply asked a question, not on how to knap a flint, if I wanted to know how, I would have asked how to knap a flint..
I guess this is not a site for a person to learn from, only rude answers come forth by some .
fdf
Great way to make friends. ::)
Roundball I do it the same way. Stones don't produce the edge you get from a simple few seconds of light tapping.
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I do it the same as Roundball, except I use the bottom of my brass pan charger instead of a brass rod.
Dale H
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Knapping the flint on your firelock is easy and necessary to get sure-fire reliable and fast ignition. We have all had times when we needed to make a good shot, but neglected to check the flint, and had a hang fire that cost us a buck or trophy or just honour and recognition. I had Daryl take a series of pictures this morning of me knapping the flint in my little .40 Peter Berry styled rifle. You can tell by the scars on both hands that I have a lot of experience with sharp stuff...and I got them one at a time too. Daryl has a dandy right across the pad of one of his thumbs when he thought ( or wished he'd thought) that he'd wipe the dust off a freshly knapped flint in his trade gun.
The first shot is of the tool I made to service this rifle. It consists of a length of 1/4" drill rod forged into a turnscrew (fits cock's top jaw screw, lock and tang screws), and a two inch length of copper bar. I turned down the end of the rod and drilled a corresponding hole through the copper, and then silver soldered the two together. No need to get fancy, though there's room for doing so here. I made one similar and polished it, then engraved it with the date for my blanket prize at our local shoot a couple weeks ago. One end is filed to a blunt chisel to concentrate the energy of the blow on a small area of the flint - the other is full. I use both as the spirit moves me.
(https://i.ibb.co/HPkrr1B/DSCN5566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YdqttYP)
To knapp the flint, I support the butt of the rifle at belt height under my adequate belly, and hold the rifle near the cock supported underneath with the middle, ring and little finger of my right hand - I'm left handed. The muzzle does not rest on anything, though that is a possible option with a very heavy rifle or musket. With my thumb I bring the cock just past the half cock position. This is important. If you rest the cock in the half or full bent position, sooner or later you will break the nose off your sear or the half cock notch off the tumbler. You would be delivering a blow, small as it is, to the steel on steel - recipe for damage. With the pad of my first finger I support the underside of the flint. This too is important, because you will achieve thinner and longer flakes with less of a blow this way, rather than just crushing the edge of the flint. Here you can see that the hammer falls only about 3/4".
(https://i.ibb.co/TLdYm2z/DSCN5567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6QZMSq)
For the purposes of this demo, I knapped the flint all the way across, though it seldom needs this. As Daryl pointed out, there is usually just a small nubby that is keeping the sharp flint from scraping the frizzen, and that's all that you need to take off. For the hunting flint, spare no expense, and do the whole edge. In the picture I have given the flint a tap on the outside corner, and removed a nice long thin flake from the underside of the flint.
$#@*, I have to run...I'll continue the description a little later today.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTJFsS1/DSCN5568.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qY2Scnz)
(https://i.ibb.co/FhYRtsW/DSCN5569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zm2qw85)
(https://i.ibb.co/HBh6HN7/DSCN5570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFdYwbk)
(https://i.ibb.co/vqQT7P7/DSCN5571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B3rQXZX)
(https://i.ibb.co/S0RY8g1/DSCN5572.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K7F4kgQ)
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In my experience sawn or filed flints do not self-knap as much as knapped ones do and are more likely to round than to self-sharpen. My unsupported theory is that small, even macroscopic (for old guys) irregularities in the flint edge cause small spalls to be knocked off in actual use of the flint, revealing a new pattern of forward edges, and this is how flints can wear in length and remain sort of "sharp". I think we've all seen flint dust or specks in the pan of a rifle that was dry fired.
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D. Taylor and Daryl , awesome tutorial there....thank you! It's funny how much info is out there in books/net/mags, yet this is the only place I can readily find such a photo tutorial of someone knapping a flint. Very little on this process to help newbies, so again many thanks.
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I probably don't have to add much in the way of a lecture to the pictures...they speak 1000's of words. You can see the flakes that I've driven off the bottom of the flint, and how sharp the new edge is. In fact, you cannot make a new thin edge unless the old one is rounded over. If you try knapping a thin edge, you'll just crush the edge and make it worse. I used copper rather than brass since copper delivers its energy into the stone more slowly that brass, which can cause crumbling rather than flaking. That is my experience anyway.
I've never had any success with sawn or ground flints...they do not spark (or cut) like a knapped edge.
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I will add something --- note the angle Taylor is striking the flint's edge. This causes a long flake to drop off the lower surface, not a short crumbly one. Too steep an angle will promote short flakes and or crumbling,which allows the edge to dull more quickly and won't give as sharp an edge as a longer flaked edge.
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Yes! Great tutorial.
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This seems like a whole lot of effort to accomplish a simple task. I generally just use the back of my knife to tap on the top of the shiny spot. Even that effort is not required on my Jim Chambers Golden Age lock. When that lock misfires it is because the flint has worn down enough that the cock screw is hiting the frizzen. It took me a while to realize how the screw was getting marked up, but eventually it finally dawned on me.
Looks like fdf may have gotten miffed and left us. Can't say that I'll miss him.
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Most discussions wander and it's a good thing. We learn a lot and often much more than the original question addressed. It's not a service we offer- answering a question. It's a discussion. I got to see another of Taylor's rifles, learned a couple of different approaches to knapping a flint in a lock, and some things about range etiquette and practice. Good discussion.
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RB and Rich hit it perfectly, although I don't see this thread as deviating from the original topic. I think Taylor's idea was a great one, with the photos - good thing he had such access to such an incredible photographer ;D.
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good thing he had such access to such an incredible photographer ;D.
*cough, sputter, choke* ;)
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Gotta tell ya, Ol Taylor screwed up a perfectly good $1.50 ($1.75 in Canada) Engllish flint to show us how to do it. ! ;D
It did remind me to support the flint and hammer w/my thumb to avoid stress on the lock half draw notch. I was getting careless there...
And probably reminded ol Daryl (again) to wipe the flint with your thumb away from the edge rather than towards the edge ::) :D
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Not sure about wiping the flint with my thumb. Tried that today and had to reach for yet another bandaid. Good think I buy them by the 'Gross'.
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Not sure about wiping the flint with my thumb. Tried that today and had to reach for yet another bandaid. Good think I buy them by the 'Gross'.
Oh yeah! The old thumb wipe. He, he, he, he.............ouch! Been there; done that.
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Going all the way across removes perhaps 3/64" in the length of the flint, and you're right, it gets shorter every time so I don't do it less it needs it.
Supporting the under side of the flint with your finger puts pressure against the bottom of the flint, and causes longer thinner flakes to come away. I support the entire weight of the muzzle with the index finger under the flint, and the rest of the fingers under the lock.
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I knap with the back of a knife, brass powder measure, what ever will work.
Forcing the face of the frizzen against the flint will often restore the edge.
Almost anything will work.
When I started shooting a FL I had never heard of a diamond lap or a green wheel. But I can see a use for the green wheel in thinning a thick flint.
Dan
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Green wheels work well for knocking off a bad hump, or as Taylor noted, gluing on a piece of pine and dressing it down with a few strokes of a file. Also, a tab of leather can be hot-glued onto the flint to even out the cock-jaw purchase. All period 'fixes ;D.
I often press a flint against the frizzen to knapp it quickly as Dan suggested - learned that right here at ALR some time ago - fastest way to get a flint back into operation, but sometimes doesn't work.
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Being Frog, I am pretty green here myself. ;D I have found this site to have in general, the least offensive and most helpful folks of any site I have been around. Some of Leatherbelly's comments are so funny in his off hand manner I have gotten to usually look to see if he has chimed in. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Perhaps the chap who took offence will reconsider and become a devotee. To my own ignorance there is no limit, yet you guys have been polite in your answers to my dumb questions. For that, you have my thanks.
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Frog, you should see Leatherbelly in person! He's one of several characters that keep me coming back to the Heffley Creek Rendezvous in south central BC Canada every year. I consider him a good friend now & very much enjoy his antics around the campfires of Heffley. See you in a month LB! :D
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In Smithsonian Magazine, October 1986, is an article titled, "Cro-Magnon hunters were really us, working out strategies for survival." On page 77 is a paragraph that I quote in its entirety:
"The newcomers developed an entirely different style. For one thing, toolmaking became considerably more sophisticated. The Neanderthals tended to be local-minded opportunists, relying mainly on flint sources close to home base, using a technique that yielded thick flakes and an estimated 40 inches of cutting edge per pound of flint. The Cro-Magnons were more selective, often obtaining special fine-grained and colorful flints from quarries as much as 250 miles away, and their punched-blade technique yielded 40 feet of cutting edge per pound. Furthermore, they improved on nature by heat-treating the material. They learned that flint raised to temperatures of 400 to 1,100 degrees F and cooled slowly becomes more elastic, easier to work."
Would this technique allow knapping and/or grinding flints to a more regular, durable cutting surface without otherwise harming the flint?
Does the flint's enhanced flexibility degrade its ability to function as steel scraper?
Does flexibility of heat treat disappear after specific amount of time?
Has anyone used heat-treated flints? With what results?
Does this technique work with other materials, such as granite? Granite, were it to retain a regular scraping surface, would be a significantly more durable scraping agent than flint. Since I hear nothing about "granite locks" or "obsidian locks," I assume these minerals have problems when being used as scraping agent that flint does not. But I have no clue what the problems are.
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Frogwalking - - LB's a hoot - sometimes more than a hoot at rondyvous - and on our weekly shoots on the trail. Seems he's making the switch to more accurate firearms too - hahahahahaha! - guess smoothbores don't rule anymore. ;D He finds hitting more rewarding that near misses, far misses and just plain missing. His abandonment of smoothbores is most unfortunate for us of meagre skill - he's a contender with that little .40 of his.
As to flints - I understand they are more easily worked if tempered (drawn in temper), but don't know if I've tried any. Rich's flints are hard and spark well as such. I don't think the English Fuller flints are tempered and they are good sparkers as well.
While I don't know if tempered flints spark as well, I cannot see any softening of the flint as being a good thing. just an opinion.
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Tempering makes many forms of flint easier to work and may give a more glossy texture. It really helps most for pressure flaking, which is essential for arrowheads and any fine work. English flint is glossy and easily pressure flaked without heat treating. The flint/chert I use cannot be pressure flaked w/o heat treating, but I don't heat treat for percussion work, which is what I use to make the flints. I like them tough enough that a thin flint (more likely to stay sharp as it wears) won't shatter.
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Well guys, it's not looking good for me to make Heffley this year.Financial woes. As far as smoothbores go,lately I can't hit the broadside of a barn if I'm standing inside it. Frustrating,so I'll probably unload both of them.
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I've purchased heat treated English flint for arrowhead knapping. I've also used it in my flintlock. I've gone well over 70 shots without having to change flints, probably much more than that. I don’t have much to compare it to though. In fact the only non-heat treated flint/chert that I’ve used in my flintlock was a store bought agate when I first started a few years ago. And that was just terrible at sparking in comparison. Heat treating of flints or cherts does not wear off. It changes the crystalline structure just slightly to make them (the crystals) separate just a bit easier. Granite has a much larger grain structure and, even if heat treated, will come out lumpy and have a very ragged edge, no good. When you are talking about flexibility in stone you are talking about minute amounts. Even unheated flint is flexible, to an extent. Obsidian is too brittle/fragile to use with a flint lock. It simply shatters. Obsidian is volcanic glass. If you want to see what it does in a flintlock, take a piece of window glass put it in there and fire away. I’ve never done it, but I don’t want to either. Here is a web site with some great descriptions of the grain structure and fracture mechanics that are ideal for knapping http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/Anth3/Courseware/LithicTech/3_Fracture_Mechanics.html
Does that answer your questions? If not let me know.
-Chad
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Chad:
Many thanks for the link. The more I think about my question that arises from the Smithsonian paragraph, the more I consider how desirable would be obsidian as striking mineral. Obsidian is used by [some] surgeons as scalpel blades precisely for benefits that might accrue to rock lock shooters (I think "rock lock" is an all-encompassing phrase?) -- sharpness not available from any steel or many minerals, ability to create sufficiently regular edge to be used as surgical scalpel, and significantly more durable edge than any steel blade.
The idea behind ceramic flints -- durability -- has always appealed to me, but ubiquity of flint and scarcity of shaped ceramic had put me off. Its possible this mineral can be the "magic" rock. And cost of trying it is no different from that of flint, agate, chert, et al. -- if it is knappable to similar degree as what rock locks commonly use.
I can use my toaster oven, the one I use to heat treat cast bullets, for the experiment.
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I think that heat treating English flints and Rich's excellent "American" flints, is a bad idea. The stone as it is knapped for flints, is hard and tough. The harder the better. Heat treating will soften the stone perhaps a little, and definitely make it flake easier, which you do not want. A heat treated flint would not last long, m'thinks. Obsidian is useless for a gunflint. So is granite. You need a hard stone that will break with a concoidal fracture, but hard is critical. Obsidian flakes easily, and produces a molecular edge. I've read that it is 50 X sharper than steel. That is likely based on the premise of the finer edge on the stone. A flaked stone projectile point is truly a wonderous thing. The first black bear I shot with a longbow was with an arrow head that I faked from English flint. The bear bled out in less than five seconds. i had cut through the aorta one inch above the heart with full penetration.
I have hundreds of English flints and I use them lots, but when I want real performance, I use one of Rich's.
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Well guys, it's not looking good for me to make Heffley this year.Financial woes. As far as smoothbores go,lately I can't hit the broadside of a barn if I'm standing inside it. Frustrating,so I'll probably unload both of them.
Geez LB, sorry to hear you might not be there. At this point I'm about 50/50 too. !@*%&@ health probs... Looks like the whole thing is up in the air with our dry weather. If it doesn't rain hard there & soon, I can't see them allowing any shooting or even cooking stoves. :(
Back on topic here, I find Rich's flints very durable, they throw lots of spark, & are easy to knapp with a small copper rod, gently applied to the edge.
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Personally, I've never tried a stone. My grandpappy taught ne to knap many years ago, and I still do it the same way. Heck, when you're out hunting, you can pick things off the ground to chip your flint. I believe in the KISS princible. Why make things harder then thay have to be.
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I guess this is sorta on topic. I was watching "Master and Commander" on the DVD Sunday. During a great sea duel, the two ships locked in mortal combat, borders on both vesels, one guy pointed his cannon through the gunport of the French (frog?) ship and pulled the lanyard on the flint igniter. A border shoved his hand between the cock and frizzen to stop the carnage. The look on his face when the flint struck bone was pretty cool. :o I like realistic movies. Some nice flint smooth bore pistols in there too.
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I didn't perticurly care for that movie. I'm not a big Russel Crow fan, but I like watching those movies to evaluate the historical accuracy and the weapons used in the film. That was a cool scene though.