AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on December 06, 2019, 02:21:14 AM
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Does anyone out there make there ramrod longer than the barrel? My gun seems like it has a short ramrod channel because the rod that came with it when inserted into the bore is almost perfectly flush with the muzzle. Or maybe that’s normal? When loaded with ball and powder, there’s not going to be much more than an inch of ramrod sticking up.
I’m going to build a replacement ramrod and am thinking of making it roughly 2” longer than the current rod, just to have some more length to work with when seating the ball that last little bit to ensure it’s totally against the powder.
Now it seems I’ve seen some original guns (which may or may not have original rods) where the ramrod sticks out from the front of the muzzle. Does anyone here build their ramrods like this? I’m going to do so.
-Smokey
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I have made them longer before because of the convenience of getting ahold of them like you mention. But one dark morning I threw one of my flinters in the rifle holder on my four wheeler heading out to the south 40 to do a little deer hunting, the stuck out rod caught on the shed door opening and ripped the upper thimble out of the stock! Wrapped some tape around it and went anyway and cussed all morning! They are all about muzzle length now
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Check the ramrod hole to see if it can be drilled deeper. I usually drill them all the way to the lug on the trigger guard. Which makes them a little longer than the full barrel length.
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A couple of thoughts:
1. If you take the rifle out hunting with a too long ramrod you will hang it up on brush, maybe not today it will happen.
2. Put a ramrod adapter on the end of the ramrod that will accept a threaded jag, ball puller, scraper but still not exceed the barrel length.
3. Looks bad. Do you ever see a beautiful Lancaster with a too long ramrod? No you don't.
4. If the rifle was made correctly you will have enough rod protruding to set your charge.
5. It's a ramrod not a bayonet!
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I use a brass ramrod in my flintlock. Adds weight for better balance and makes loading a little easier. Plus it wont bend or break. And it extends out just a bit past the barrel. Maybe the length of the jag. I've never snagged it on anything. And it makes it easier to pull out from under the gun.
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;D ;D ;D... nothing wrong with the rammer sticking out past the barrel,... I have longer rammers in all my Tennessee rifles, because all originals I used to see had them,... Tennessee hog rifles look right with them,... wrong without,... my rods usually stick out 4" or slightly more past the muzzle,.... CCF
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Thank you, friends. It appears there is a bit more wood that could be removed in the channel.
I assume I remove the barrel and lock and then use a hand drill with the proper sized wood bit and just enlargen it some?
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If you're going to drill the hole deeper , take the thimbles off as well. I've had the drill rod catch them and bend them if the drill whips a little out of alignment. I would also use a hand brace not an electric drill.
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Don't remove the barrel , it supports the wood.
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It’s a half stock rifle with a screw-on under rib.
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Amen, CCF!
J.B.
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Like CCF says, (Rammer sticking out in front of muzzle) they look kind of right on a Tennessee mountain rifle, but to me Awful on anything else!!
Never (and I use that word knowing we normally shouldn't!) seen on British or European guns.
With powder and ball or shot & such, a ramrod that is flush with muzzle when barrel is empty, will work OK for seating a ball etc.
For cleaning a screw-on jag is all that's required.
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Mine is even with barrel, but the ramrod is about a finger higher than the stock to get a better grip.
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Hey Smokey,
Maybe a member lives near enough to you that has the proper bit to deepen your ramrod channel.
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Hey Smokey,
Maybe a member lives near enough to you that has the proper bit to deepen your ramrod channel.
I live in Las Vegas so maybe not :(
Finding traditional black powder shooters here is tough, sadly. I’m guessing I’d need a really really long bit, eh? So I should use a hand brace drill? I can’t use my electric one?
If anyone could give a little more instruction that’s be appreciated. Thanks guys!!
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Get a brad-point bit of the correct diameter from one of the suppliers - MBS is north of you in Idaho. Use a brace, if you can find one, or a good 1/2" drill that will rotate very slow, about 50 rpm or so.
Drill about a 1/2" or so, and clear chips, then do it again until you achieve the depth you want.
Most of us have a ramrod that is the length of the barrel from the face of the breech plug to the muzzle. When you insert the RR, if it stops and sticks out a bit - something is in there! Might be a live charge, might be an insect - check it out. And when you load, have a little mark on the rod so you can identify a normal load.
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I've seen photos of hunters from the southern Appalachians with ramrods sticking out beyond the muzzle. There is a famous one of a barefoot kid with a rifle longer than he is tall. However, I agree with the majority (above) who believe a rod protruding beyond the muzzle will be a pain... It will find things on which to snag. If your rifle is empty (unloaded) and you put the ramrod in the bore, and you have anything at all there to grab and pull it out, the rod is long enough. Your load height will increase the amount of protrusion, as will a jag. Just for loading, you can use a plain old 3/8" ramrod blank, with no finish and no ferrules or anything else on it, if you just want extra length. Cut the dowel to any length you like. It will work fine as a ramrod. We discussed cleaning rods, range rods, and ferrules in a separate thread.
Deepening the ramrod hole in the rifle seems pretty radical to me, especially if you are not properly equipped for it. There are a lot of ways for that project to go south in a hurry.
I would respectfully suggest you get a range rod to bring with you and go try that rifle out, and not change anything until you are certain that's what you need to do. Let us know how it goes.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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Smokey if your ramrod sticks out about 1' at best past your muzzle, that is the way it is supposed be. We use "hunting jags" (roughly 3 1/2" long) gives you plenty to grab on to. We never take the wooden ramrod out of the gun except to reload in the woods while hunting. Wood is not good for the end of your barrel anyway, get a metal , Stainless preferable with a barrel protector to use when shooting your gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/k3m65GM/IMG-9158.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HNhpBKX)
(https://i.ibb.co/QP1gy45/IMG-9159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X7vQcqw)
Steve
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As previously mentioned ramrods on Appalachian rifles are commonly longer than the barrel. I am not aware of this being the case with other "styles". The only problem I've ever experienced with a longer than normal wood rod is having the tip catch and break off rendering the rod too short. Mine are generally muzzle length. My .32 SMR has the rod sticking out about 1-1/2" from the muzzle. I didn't plan this when I made the rod; it just turned out a little longer.
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I actually lengthened the steel ramrod on my sporterized Potsdam smoothie as I could not get the ram rod out without a lot of fuss.
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Thanks, all. Here is a picture of the ramrod all the way down in the barrel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5NNxT2N/AE6-CDCAD-731-C-4586-88-BE-7-AC4-BDE39-F86.jpg)
My original plan was to use a tapered threaded tip for a separate tow worm and ball puller. This is a PC method from my research, and using the bare end of the rod to load. I do not want a modern brass jag. HC/PC is the ultimate goal. I already have a solid brass range rod but for a field/hunting rod I plan to use the underbarrel hickory rod.
What is meant by “breech face”? Is that the very bottom of the bore, or the seam where the back of the barrel meets with the breech that can be seen from the outside?
If you mean the later, it appears my rammer is about 3/4” short and the ramrod hole in the stock would be too short then?
Thanks!
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where is the end of that rod in relation to to end of the barrel when it's stored in the thimbles and hole?
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where is the end of that rod in relation to to end of the barrel when it's stored in the thimbles and hole?
Flush with muzzle where it normally should be.
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it may be that the ramrod is hitting the lug on the front of the triggerguard.
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it may be that the ramrod is hitting the lug on the front of the triggerguard.
Where should the lug be? I’m looking down the hole, I’m not seeing brass.
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Take the lock out and see if there is a pin in the lock mortise. It may also be visible from the side plate
side of the stock or under the side plate. The pin goes through the stock and holds up the front of your triggerguard .
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Here’s what it looks like with the ramrod at the same position it would be if it were in the hole all the way:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MT6rsgdm/2-D63-D5-F4-D891-45-BA-B0-CF-932-BC377-C752.jpg)
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Looks as though you could gain a bit by drilling.
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You can see that you will only gain 3/8 or so by deepening the hole. If you have a pin punch you could take the guard off and put your ramrod in there and see if it goes to the lug inlet.
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Stick something (piece of dowel rod, straightened section of clothes hanger) down the ramrod well until it stops. Make a mark on it and pull it back out. Lay it along the gun so that your mark aligns with the end of the ramrod well/entry thimble and see where the end is in relation to your trigger guard... If the trigger guard is pinned in the front it should give you a fairly close indication of where the lug is.
The builder may have stopped just shy of the lug.
Mike
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Hey Smokey,
If anyone could give a little more instruction that’s be appreciated. Thanks guys!!
Ok Smokey. Go to Home Depot or Lowes, They sell 18 inch long Irwin drill bits. You can buy them in 1/4 inch, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16 and 1/2 inch. You may want to take off the trigger guard, and measure the distance from the pin hole to the front of the lug. Mark that distance in your lock mortise. With a tape measure hooked on muzzle you can measure how deep you can go. Mark that length on your drill bit and wrap a piece of tape around it at that point.
. Take the barrel off. Take the lock off. Get a piece of 1/4 inch. ply wood big enough to cover the lock mortise and panel. Use 2inch painters tape and place over the lock panel to protect the finish. Tape the plywood over the lock panel.
Protect the lock plate side with another piece of ply wood or heavy leather. Now clamp the stock in a vise at the protected lock panels.
Clamp it belly up. If you have a variable speed cordless drill put it in the slower setting. With your drill bit in the drill run it into the ram rod channel, without the drill turning. When it stops at the end of the channel,, back it off about a n 1/8th inch. Start your drill and slowly push it into the wood. You will feel it cutting into the wood. As you approach the tape on your drill bit go slow, and stop at the tape.
The drilling should take only a couple of minutes, if that much since you will only be going to drill about 3/8th to 1/2 inch deep.
That is how I would do it. But I probably would not waste my time.
The ball and powder column are going to give you about two inches to work with on the ramrod plus what little you are going to gain by drilling.
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Your loading rod is the perfect length now. If you go to all that trouble to make the hole deeper, you'll gain no more than 5/16" at most. For what??? then it's make another ramrod. Your rod should be flush with the muzzle when in the gun - not protruding where it will interfere with loading, and a danger to it and the rifle when in the bush. Waste of time, for no gain.
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Well stated, Taylor! But we might add that the tip, when sticking out like that, collects a LOT of residue, which in turn, gets all over the rifleman. And man, you really nailed it with catching on things!
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Your loading rod is the perfect length now. If you go to all that trouble to make the hole deeper, you'll gain no more than 5/16" at most. For what??? then it's make another ramrod. Your rod should be flush with the muzzle when in the gun - not protruding where it will interfere with loading, and a danger to it and the rifle when in the bush. Waste of time, for no gain.
I see. Not sure if you saw this picture I posted, but as you can see the rod is flush with the muzzle when all the way down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5NNxT2N/AE6-CDCAD-731-C-4586-88-BE-7-AC4-BDE39-F86.jpg)
This looks normal? I’ve had two others rifles, a Lyman’s Plains rifle and a TVM Tennessee. Both had the ramrod sticking up about an inch when inserted into the barrel. As I plan to recreated a historical ramrod with tapered tip and thread on tow worm/ball puller, which cannot be used as a loading aid for obvious reasons, my plan was to make the rod about an inch taller than the muzzle. I did this for the one I made for my Lyman GPR and it didn’t cause any issues.
It’s just that with the current rod that came with the gun, even with a loaded barrel (I plan to use lighter charges for small game) the rod wouldn’t be sticking out but an inch or so and that’s all I’d have to push down on when seating the ball...
I’ve decided against drilling the hole any deeper, but for the reasons stated above, will probably make the rammer just a bit longer because:
A) I will NOT be using a modern screw on jag
B) It will be too short for seating the ball
C) It is historically correct for some guns
I will have range rods and modern jags and stuff for the range and when cleaning at home, but for HUNTING in the woods I want to go as period as possible for the rifle and gear. It’s just a personal goal. If they did it back then, so can I, and I want to do it.
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Being flush with the muzzle it looks like most of mine. It's long enough for loading and short enough not to snag.
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Being flush with the muzzle it looks like most of mine. It's long enough for loading and short enough not to snag.
Thanks, Hanshil
I’ve got ten ramrod blanks to work with so will have plenty to “aspearamint” with.
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Why do you think you need more than an inch or so sticking out of the barrel to load with? So long as there is enough to pull it out with a finger and thumb after loading you have enough length. The extra length of the worm on the end when cleaning is plenty to grab when using tow. This is really not rocket science, no need to over think it.
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Why do you think you need more than an inch or so sticking out of the barrel to load with? So long as there is enough to pull it out with a finger and thumb after loading you have enough length. The extra length of the worm on the end when cleaning is plenty to grab when using tow. This is really not rocket science, no need to over think it.
Thanks, Clark B. I thought something might be wrong with my rifle but it seems it isn’t so.
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Smokey, you say you live in Vegas and not many black powder shooters there. I can see by all your questions that you could use some guidance. There is a club in Reno. Muzzle Blasts lists Aubrey Campbell as a contact person
acinsac@sbcglobal,lakescrosssingmuzzleloaders.org .
Or you could come to AZWINS in Phoenix in March. The shoot starts Mach 1st (set up). Actual shooting starts on the 2nd. Shooting continues through the 8th, with awards on the 9th. If you pre register the cost is $60.00. The fee includes all matches and targets.
There is camping on the site.
What is most important for you is that there will be enough people there to answer all your questions. Plus you will get to see what a lot of folks are shooting what they used for lubes, balls, patches etc. Plus it will let you see what muzzle loaders are capable of.
Don't know how many Muzzle loading shooters you have been around, but I assure you that the majority of us are more than willing to give you an opinion on how things are done or should be done.
You can access all the info at azmuzzleloading.com .
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SP: After thoroughly being involved in both your threads involving the length necessary for a ramrod, I suggest you go ahead and do it the way you think it should be done. Then, after say 50 years of shooting, making rifles, replacing broken rods from hundreds of other shooter's rifles, you can make a post on this forum when someone else asks this same question, and they will. You can quote my reply, if you like.
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Smokey, you say you live in Vegas and not many black powder shooters there. I can see by all your questions that you could use some guidance. There is a club in Reno. Muzzle Blasts lists Aubrey Campbell as a contact person
acinsac@sbcglobal,lakescrosssingmuzzleloaders.org .
Or you could come to AZWINS in Phoenix in March. The shoot starts Mach 1st (set up). Actual shooting starts on the 2nd. Shooting continues through the 8th, with awards on the 9th. If you pre register the cost is $60.00. The fee includes all matches and targets.
There is camping on the site.
What is most important for you is that there will be enough people there to answer all your questions. Plus you will get to see what a lot of folks are shooting what they used for lubes, balls, patches etc. Plus it will let you see what muzzle loaders are capable of.
Don't know how many Muzzle loading shooters you have been around, but I assure you that the majority of us are more than willing to give you an opinion on how things are done or should be done.
You can access all the info at azmuzzleloading.com .
winner winner.
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SP: After thoroughly being involved in both your threads involving the length necessary for a ramrod, I suggest you go ahead and do it the way you think it should be done. Then, after say 50 years of shooting, making rifles, replacing broken rods from hundreds of other shooter's rifles, you can make a post on this forum when someone else asks this same question, and they will. You can quote my reply, if you like.
I didn’t mean to offend you sir.
I’m going to take all the advice and try it just “as is”, same length flush at muzzle. Seems it should be “A-okay”. Thanks!!
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Smokey, you say you live in Vegas and not many black powder shooters there. I can see by all your questions that you could use some guidance. There is a club in Reno. Muzzle Blasts lists Aubrey Campbell as a contact person
acinsac@sbcglobal,lakescrosssingmuzzleloaders.org .
Or you could come to AZWINS in Phoenix in March. The shoot starts Mach 1st (set up). Actual shooting starts on the 2nd. Shooting continues through the 8th, with awards on the 9th. If you pre register the cost is $60.00. The fee includes all matches and targets.
There is camping on the site.
What is most important for you is that there will be enough people there to answer all your questions. Plus you will get to see what a lot of folks are shooting what they used for lubes, balls, patches etc. Plus it will let you see what muzzle loaders are capable of.
Don't know how many Muzzle loading shooters you have been around, but I assure you that the majority of us are more than willing to give you an opinion on how things are done or should be done.
You can access all the info at azmuzzleloading.com .
Very interesting. I’ll look into those. Reno is 7 hours away but it could well be worth the drive. Phoenix isn’t too far but I’ll be deployed in March, sadly.
Yep wish I was back home East! I grew up in Southern Illinois and there are muzzleloaders there for sure, grew up only about 40 minutes from Fort de Charters.
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SP I live about 7 hours north of you, and would venture a guess that Vegas has more black powder shooters than you would think. The difference being, like here that they aren't out front shooting for all to see. Especially the traditional shooters tend to keep to themselves around here.
Mike
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SP: I wasn't offended, and my reply was perhaps condescending. For that I apologize. What I was hearing from you in this discussion, when no one agreed that a ramrod should be longer than the muzzle, that you were going to do it anyway. I see now that you have agreed with those who answered your question.
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SP: I wasn't offended, and my reply was perhaps condescending. For that I apologize. What I was hearing from you in this discussion, when no one agreed that a ramrod should be longer than the muzzle, that you were going to do it anyway. I see now that you have agreed with those who answered your question.
No it’s okay! Just like I said on my first two rifles the rammer sticks up some in an empty bore but I was just a mite discombobulated since when I inserted the rammer into this bore it went all the way in. Many folks have no said this is normal and will not cause problems during a reload. Good to here!
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I just spent the last 3 days hunting the woods with a rifle that has 2” of ramrod sticking out. Never a problem. Much rather have enough ramrod to pull out easily in a hunting situation, than fumbling with trying to pull out a short rod. My .30 cal. Tennessee squirrel rifle ramrod stick out 4”. You learn to deal with it.
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God Speed to you on your deployment.
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God Speed to you on your deployment.
Thank you!!
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So I’ve been using the ramrod as is, flush with the muzzle. Guys it works well. With a load in, it stick up about a inch and a half. It’s enough. And with a jag it’s plenty. You guys sure know a bunch!!
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I remember seeing a photo of Sgt. York holding his SMR and the ramrod was sticking about 4 inches out of the barrel. This was a number of years ago and perhaps in the American Rifleman. It looked somehow "not quite right" to me. But it must have worked for him.
I make my ramrods to stick about 1/2" out of the barrels end and in all these years I've had no problems with this dimension. Years ago when I was just starting out I got several patches stuck down the bore. Those are the only times I ever needed a little extra length.
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Even with a rod that is bore length, the addition of a ball screw or worm extends the rod beyond the muzzle's end
giving lots of length for finger purchase, for turning the screw or worm into the "lost" patch, or stuck ball as the case may be.
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Even with a rod that is bore length, the addition of a ball screw or worm extends the rod beyond the muzzle's end
giving lots of length for finger purchase, for turning the screw or worm into the "lost" patch, or stuck ball as the case may be.
Thanks, Daryl! :)
I bought a traditional tow worm and ramrod tip. Going to attach the tip to my rod after I plumb brown them in the oven with the plumb browning I bought the other day.