AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: r010159 on April 01, 2020, 06:09:42 AM
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Here is a T. Poltz flintlock, one of a pair of pistols made c. 1770. I think all of it has been handmade, except maybe for a part of the embossing. Perhaps the embossing was hand finished. It is in fine condition, but has been refinished. There appears to be no evidence of sanding, that of any significance. The barrel has a nice patina, "mottled" by the remaining bluing.
So what do you all think? Does anyone have any info on T Poltz and the flintlock firearms he made? What has been used to refinish this pistol? Wax? Lacquer? I think lacquer. The ramrod assembly appears to have been repaired, but well done.
Thank you!
(https://i.ibb.co/QXk52Mf/EFCB4-F74-BECB-4-BAF-B109-BA94030-E3-A7-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fQ9chH2)
(https://i.ibb.co/Sf1vT4r/94-B5-CF91-5-FC0-49-DB-BEC6-AEA208-BD180-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bbydhMJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/4McnnWV/4-A3-F9-D26-2-BF1-4-FD3-8-B2-B-327-AA9039-F22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tcSTTBJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/xs4Y4Lt/A93-E9196-5-B21-492-D-B74-A-FC7-E109499-A6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJh9hp4)
(https://i.ibb.co/s6P9X7V/3-B27-FA1-F-A84-F-4075-9197-F070097899-A9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b235GtK)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jcm8Sxf/26-CB12-B9-382-D-46-C9-A325-543384-F85-B66.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhmcdsS)
(https://i.ibb.co/swQxLvm/28-A69493-BD90-4-BE6-8964-275229-CD9-B32.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yk8nv7R)
(https://i.ibb.co/qjDY8yw/DCDBB8-B7-C654-4928-9-F73-A0-A847-BE8-F4-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H4KTyFQ)
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This a really nice continental pistol and appears to have been No. 2 of a pair given the number '2' at the tang. The gun is richly carved and was made for someone
with wealth; likely German, Austrian, or perhaps Czech. Have you found Poltz in any books dealing with European arms makers? I have only one, but found no listing for him. It appears to be mid 18th century gun.
Condition is very good aside from the mistreatment of the wood as you point out. A previous collector may have wanted the carving to stand out more and so stripped it. A number of 'restorers' used polyurethane for the wood and that can be removed. There are people who can come fairly close to bringing the wood finish back to what it should look like prior to the refinishing. And, they are on this site should you wish to have it done.
Thank you for letting us have a look at a very nice flintlock pistol.
Dick
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Thank you for your reply! There are a couple of coats of Renaissance Wax on top of it. I do not think its polyurethane. I can remove the wax using isopropyl alcohol, and then take a couple more pictures.
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Probably related to Franz Poltz, a Czech.
(https://i.ibb.co/8zp9dQx/a-very-nice-pair-18th-century-antique-czech-flintlock-pistols-by-franz-poltz-in-carlsbad-karlova-vary-caliber-13-mm-length-34-cm-in-near-mint-condition-price-9750-euro-24226.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RhmcBJ6)
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You would almost be proud to be shot with a pistol that fancy!
Shame that someone "altered" the piece, but I am sure it can be properly restored.
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The thumb piece is English and does not belong on this pistol. Probably put on at the time of refinish.
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Forgot to ask, but do you have both pistols? Would like to see ithe other one if you have it.
Thanks,
Dick
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The thumb piece is English and does not belong on this pistol. Probably put on at the time of refinish.
Thumb piece? Interesting observation. BTW I only have one of the two made.
The surface of the finish appears to me to be pliable. So in my ignorant opinion, I think it is some kind of lacquer. I can make very little marks on the surface with my fingernails. I also can see where the barrel has been slammed against some things over time. I see the indentations on the finish where this happened. There are a couple that actually have bruised wood underneath. But what do I know. I am here to learn. Maybe varnish? Maybe what was mentioned earlier, polyurethane? I do not know. I think I will remove the wax coating that I applied with diluted isopropyl alcohol, IOW rubbing alcohol. Then I will take a picture.
I will need to contact one of these experts here to see how much it will cost me. I think the value would be higher with the correct finish. From pictures that I have seen, it is an oiled finish. But either way, since it has been refinished, its value will be limited. It will have greater value to me than to most people. It is a work of art.
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Probably related to Franz Poltz, a Czech.
(https://i.ibb.co/8zp9dQx/a-very-nice-pair-18th-century-antique-czech-flintlock-pistols-by-franz-poltz-in-carlsbad-karlova-vary-caliber-13-mm-length-34-cm-in-near-mint-condition-price-9750-euro-24226.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RhmcBJ6)
Is Franz Poltz his son? Maybe another member of the family, like his brother?
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The thumb piece is English and does not belong on this pistol. Probably put on at the time of refinish.
I also think the ramrod area has been repaired. All the work, including the refinishing, appears to be well done. I wonder what I will see if I unscrew the embossed metal on the side of the pistol? I do not think I will try.
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I don't find the present finish obnoxious. I'd leave it alone and just enjoy it.
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I don't find the present finish obnoxious. I'd leave it alone and just enjoy it.
A nice relic and if it ain't broke,DON'T fix it >:(.
Bob Roller
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Mike is correct.
I personally feel the pistol should be left in its current condition. Why compound the problem and risk damaging the piece.
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Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
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Then we have a consensus. I will leave it alone. I think it has value, but not anything close to what would be with the original finish. I bet someone spent good money for the repair and refinishing. At least the artwork has been preserved in this way. It is a work of art.
Thank you all for your help! :)
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Then we have a consensus. I will leave it alone. I think it has value, but not anything close to what would be with the original finish. I bet someone spent good money for the repair and refinishing. At least the artwork has been preserved in this way. It is a work of art.
Thank you all for your help! :)
With the english thumb piece being a modern day add on Your decision not to spend alot of money on it is wise.
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The added English thumbpiece may be covering a void left by a missing one. Just a thought. Who knows.
Bob
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For giggles, I sent some photos off to RIA auction house for assessment. I am not expecting it to be worth much, but what the heck. Their assessment is free.
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For giggles, I sent some photos off to RIA auction house for assessment. I am not expecting it to be worth much, but what the heck. Their assessment is free.
So that’s how you glitch out big brother....pluralize it. I think you broke the interwebs.
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Well, I was hoping for a high enough value to put it up on auction. Apparently, the value is between $1200 to $1700. I am thinking of keeping it for its artistic value, being a fine example of workmanship during that time period in Europe. It is worth allot more to me than its market value.
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Good day,
I also have one pistol from Tadeas Poltz - Thaddaus (Also referenced as Thaddeus) Poltz is recorded as working in Karlovy Vary. Here I provide an article translated from Czech researchers "Very few weapons have survived from this artist. There are only a few in Czech collections.
Petr
Collection of historical weapons of Karlovy Vary gunsmiths from the 18th century - The ultimate art of its time
Karlovy Vary, as a famous spa, has been frequently visited by members of the European aristocracy in the past. Due to the fact that the period concept of spa treatment included a varied social life and the surroundings of the spa abounded in rich hunting grounds, it was a good tone for a visitor to the spa to take home as a souvenir, among other things, a quality weapon. Pistols and rifles, the work of famous Karlovy Vary gunsmiths and masters, were sought in the 18th century by a social elite from all over the "old continent".
Moreover, history has made the Karlovy Vary weapons famous throughout Europe: in the victorious battle with the Turks at Cesma in 1770, the commander of the Russian fleet, A. G. Orlov, shot the enemy Turkish helmsman with a Karlovy Vary rifle. For this victory, he was able to use the nickname Cesmenský on his surname based on the decision of the Russian monarch.
KARLOVAR RIFLE
It is said that the foundations of Karlovy Vary riflemanship were laid by the Cheb masters, who sought refuge in relatively quiet Karlovy Vary during the Thirty Years' War before the rampage of the military soldiers and the negative consequences of the long war. Whether this was the case is still unknown, as Karlovy Vary also suffered from the frequent presence of troops during the Thirty Years' War. What is certain, however, is that from the second half of the 17th century, the rifle craft flourished in this town, which culminated in the first half of the 18th century. Ten masters - riflemen - are known in Karlovy Vary from 1673, in 1700 there were already 19 of them in the Karlovy Vary guild, and around 1738 even 26. From the second half of the 18th century, however, the importance of Karlovy Vary riflemanship gradually decreased. By 1788, only 12 masters were already producing weapons, who were apparently dealt heavy blows by both the pan-European armed conflict with revolutionary France and the Napoleonic Wars. In 1835, the Karlovy Vary Rifle Guild, which then had only nine members, broke up.
Riflemen did not have it easy at the time. The experience accumulated over generations and the good name of the company played an important role. The experience was passed on orally, as there were no vocational textbooks or craft educational institutions. Knowledge of materials and technologies was gained in practice, the nature of many chemical and physical processes was unknown. Even in Karlovy Vary, we meet families of riflemen, in which the rifle craft was inherited from generation to generation - 100 and 150 years. Among the most important were the families of Becher, Peter, Breitenfelder, Poltz, etc. The sons learned the craft from their father - master and then went on an experienced, most often to Vienna. In order to meet the relatively strict requirements of the guild regulations, they had to be "on hike" for at least three years after the apprenticeship and work in Vienna for another three years. For admission to the guild, they presented a demanding masterpiece, most often a cleverly crafted rifle or a pair of pistols.
The surviving works of Karlovy Vary gunsmiths are truly unique. They are characterized by an excellent overall composition of all materials used and high quality craftsmanship, including color and optical matching, which makes them literally a jewel. Karlovy Vary riflemen were able to make the most of the choice of wood from which the stock was made, so that its drawing and color tone became an integral part of the overall aesthetic impression of the weapon. Closely correspond to this are the richly executed engravings on the metal parts, enriched with gold and silver. Weapons, therefore, often represent the pinnacle of the rifle art of their time. For these reasons, most known works are not freely available. The majority of Karlovy Vary riflemen 's weapons are owned by public cultural institutions or in large private collections inaccessible to the public. It must be said that this is entirely justified, as in most cases these are objects for which the designation National Cultural Treasure is used and they have the status of cultural monuments.
(https://i.ibb.co/Bq5CT1M/IMG-1161.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HnfHGJ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/HHzDXJy/IMG-1163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bKBg7fV)
(https://i.ibb.co/PYSVc23/IMG-1164.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnZ2NHX)
freeobrazky (https://cs.imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/xznfKbV/IMG-1165.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7r3RxD7)