AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: LuVerne Schumann on May 08, 2020, 09:03:51 PM
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I've been out of black powder shooting for years and had put together a few CVA kits. I decided to get back into it and went with a kit from Jack Garner at Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. It's a Tennessee iron mounted rifle in the po' boy style.
Jack shipped it 7 days after my order. It was well packed with the barrel was taped to what appears to be a board sawn from my blank, so I have something to practice on.
(https://i.ibb.co/482bZdR/20200508-102844.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PcM2ZQG)
(https://i.ibb.co/SQHZq6m/20200508-102930.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hXrTpgd)
(https://i.ibb.co/BrjW5Ky/20200508-102919.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9V2Kk3b)
(https://i.ibb.co/R64q4Ww/20200508-102950.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgFvFwQ)
I think the wood is quite pretty for "plain" maple.
(https://i.ibb.co/xYzXsp0/20200508-121240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ScW6DQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/T0LD0KN/20200508-121043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rpsKpbX)
(https://i.ibb.co/pzYtPfy/20200508-102859.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vP07B3Y)
upload images (https://imgbb.com/)
I installed the breech plug and it clocked "ok" but not great. Hopefully the engraving wont show. I'm not going with a lollipop tang, I'm going to do a long oval like I've seen in some pictures of original guns.
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Hot Dog!! and welcome to the forum. A lotta love here for the style rifle you are building, with an occasional side trip to Hawken Land.
I love em both. Looks like a good start, and please do not hesitate to ask questions and help. Plenty of it rite 'cheer! Sorry, my Hillbilly be sneaking out. Best regards, Dave F in WV 8) 8)
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Hot Dog in deed! ;D ;D
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Looks like fun! I just picked up a kit from Brad Emig! Keep us updated with pics on this thread as you progress, and ask any questions here as well!!
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Bob,
What kit you get from Brad?
AsMs
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Like Bill Raby in his videos says, I am taking this on one small job at a time.
Tonight I almost got my flats filed.
As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't really thrilled where the breech plug decided to clock, but figured I'd look at how much of the manufacturers marks would be showing after the barrel was filed. I can just barely make out the "40" but everything else is gone.
Before:
(https://i.ibb.co/RjhZJ86/breech-plug-installed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/41s90kS)
After:
(https://i.ibb.co/zP53C1y/breech-plug-finish-filed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WB3r7Qb)
You'll note that the only engraving that survived my Dad's TRW mill file was the "40" and that should be mostly obscured by wood once the barrel is inlet.
(https://i.ibb.co/dc7YWt4/first-flat-filed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPv7krd)
I am halfway through filing the flats. I'm amazed at how much better the barrel looks, and how uneven each flat was prior to hitting it with the file.
My Dad prepared me for this by forcing me to sharpen tools with a file when I was a kid. I can't wait to get this bit done and move on to the next.
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Bob,
What kit you get from Brad?
AsMs
I called to get him check on a Lady/Boys for me to build my wife for the Friendship woods walk in the Fall and picked up a Colonial Pistol he had in stock.
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I also posted this build to Facebook, and folks there convinced me to reclock my breech plug. Evidently, some manufacturers put their makers marks on the flat with the most runout, and putting those on the side are a big no-no.
Not knowing any better, I did just that. Now the "40" is on the bottom flat. I also finished filing the barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/WF5H2fC/reclocking.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K7h5rWn)
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Did some good honest work yesterday and today. Got the barrel inleted and the breech and tang partly inleted.
I see some folks do the barrel and breech/tang all at once, but since this stock was already partly inleted, I wanted to make sure the barrel was in proper, first, then worry about getting everything else lined up.
To me, the toughest part was deciding how the lock, trigger and breech all related to each other in the 3D world of plain maple. It's not as simple as I thought when first considering it. But I found a general placement that I think will ensure success. I hope. ;)
Here's a couple more pics.
(https://i.ibb.co/3sfySp6/barrel-inleted.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zgJrnM)
(https://i.ibb.co/3mNR2b6/barrel-inleted1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/23tZxrV)
Now on to inleting the breech and tang.
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LuVerne,
A couple tips, albeit from an amateur.
Did Jack drill the RR hole for you? If so, you might check the thickness of the web between barrel channel and RR channel. I try for 1/8” or even 3/32”. Slimmer is better. If Jack drilled it, you can bring the barrel down at this point before going further.
If the RR hole is not drilled, then leave the barrel channel alone and scrape the RR channel to get desired web thickness. Then you can drill.
If you like the web thickness as is, ignore the above!
If you haven’t got them already, couple of recommended books like Gunsmith of Grenville County and Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle. Check out Mike Brooks’ tutorial here on ALR. Those, along with some excellent instructions from people like Jim Parker, helped me understand relation of breech, lock, and trigger.
Breech face determines touch hole. Touch hole determines lock pan. Lock pan and to a lesser extent web determine lock position and orientation. Lock sear determines triggers. After that, blood sacrifice, lit candles, incantations (read swearing - goldarn thing rat frazzing son of a biscuit eating....), and magic makes the rest.
Enjoy the journey and please share!
Regards,
Paul
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It came with the RR drilled.
It has 5/32nd web between the barrel and the ramrod, and I have concerns about where the heck the inlets for the barrel pins and the ramrod thimbles go.
I think I'm not going to make it any thinner, as this is my first build, and I'm trying out different basic concepts. My next build or builds down the road I'll definitely try it, since slimmer is better.
Here I've inlet the breech and tang. Was an interesting experience.
My biggest mistake was continuously forgetting to reorient the work piece instead of the tool. There were chips made where I didn't want chips. Go with the grain and get smooth curls instead. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/1d2bD2p/breech-inlet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnkRHkV)
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That's how we learn. BTW, whats the hot rod under the cover? Inquiring minds want to know. lol, Dave.I have a 70 Pontiac Catalina under the cover in my shop/garage 8) 8)
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1967 Mustang convertible. My first car, I bought at the age of 13.
38,000 actual, all original interior, paint and top.
1995 5.0 roller GT motor
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Sweet. That 'stang oughta scoot. I like the stangs, your vintage and up. Had a svt Cobra new in 2004. man,what a Beast. Was worth the price of admission. Lookin good on the build. I am gonna tell you what I told another newbie several years ago----betcha cant build JUST ONE !!!hahaha. you probably already got something in mind. Happens regular here. Best regards, dave F 8) 8)
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LuVerne,
Mustang fan myself. Problem is, I don’t fit. My knees wrap around the steering wheel. So I stick to my F150’s.
Back to your build, understand about the chip outs around the tang inlet. Good practice correcting those. My last build, I started calling “patches” for all the chip outs and miscues on my part! Carefully done, most will never be noticed. Unfortunately, I had two pieces really get away from me and I didn’t hide them very well. Still turned out to be a good rifle and my best thus far.
You have plenty of room for barrel pins and pipes. Trim or file down the tabs on the pipes. They come way too long. Web thickness or less in height. Same with barrel lugs. Measure carefully and barrel pin should just skim bottom barrel flat. Likewise, ramrod pipe (thimble) pin should just skim top of pipe. At least, that is what I aim for.
Looks like you are well on your way!
Regards,
Paul
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Sweet. That 'stang oughta scoot. I like the stangs, your vintage and up. Had a svt Cobra new in 2004. man,what a Beast. Was worth the price of admission. Lookin good on the build. I am gonna tell you what I told another newbie several years ago----betcha cant build JUST ONE !!!hahaha. you probably already got something in mind. Happens regular here. Best regards, dave F 8) 8)
You have no idea about not building just one. I have no less than five more builds planned; I've already sold two of them (at the cost of materials) to friends who just want a rifle I built, sight unseen.
I need to do an Early Lancaster and a Jakob Dickert, for sure. Otherwise, I'm kind of fixated on these barn or plain guns.
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LuVerne,
Mustang fan myself. Problem is, I don’t fit. My knees wrap around the steering wheel. So I stick to my F150’s.
Back to your build, understand about the chip outs around the tang inlet. Good practice correcting those. My last build, I started calling “patches” for all the chip outs and miscues on my part! Carefully done, most will never be noticed. Unfortunately, I had two pieces really get away from me and I didn’t hide them very well. Still turned out to be a good rifle and my best thus far.
You have plenty of room for barrel pins and pipes. Trim or file down the tabs on the pipes. They come way too long. Web thickness or less in height. Same with barrel lugs. Measure carefully and barrel pin should just skim bottom barrel flat. Likewise, ramrod pipe (thimble) pin should just skim top of pipe. At least, that is what I aim for.
Looks like you are well on your way!
Regards,
Paul
The thing I've found about chip outs, is that in most areas, if you are careful, they go away as you inlet deeper into the wood. Of course, if you look at original guns, most makers didn't appear to care much about how tight their seams were on inlets.
Modern standards have much higher expectations, though.
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Red letter day today. Made lots of mistakes, corrected for them, and got lots done.
First, I finished dovetailing the tabs on the bottom flat of the barrel and pinned the barrel to the stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/PQYgKcy/barrel-pinned.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RyScf3K)
My mistakes? I free-handed drilling the pin holes with a cheap Harbor Freight bit, which was easily deflected by the maple. The first pin went in fine, but the second and third holes were progressively worse. I plugged the holes with toothpicks, and bought a high quality bit from the local hardware store and redrilled new holes. The third hole was made worse by the cheap drill breaking off, and then my drift broke off trying to drive it out. After much head scratching, I eventually figured a way to extract both. My wife's tweezers came to the rescue, and she really doesn't need to know, now does she?
(https://i.ibb.co/RTrtS01/lock-plate-inlet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFvKRyD)
I started inleting the lock plate.
At this point, I've become disenchanted with inleting black. Frankly, the stuff migrates enough to be its own enemy. Instead, I started really thinking about how the wood needs to be removed in order to allow the lock to go where it needs to. Caveat - I used to be a wooden boat builder, so I understand the dynamics of "try and fit." I haven't given up completely on inleting black, but I quit using it as much when the inlet is obvious, or when it requires judgment. I am really happy with the progress so far.
But that is only until the next self-induced rifle building crisis....
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I don't really like inletting black either, as you say, it seems to get everywhere. Most of the time when that happens, it is because you are using way way too much. That tiny little jar of inletting black should last nearly forever. In other words, get some on a brush and then wipe nearly all of it off on the side of the jar, or on a paper towel.
Even better, ditch it and use candle soot. It's much less messy. You can just buy a big candle and hold the piece just at the top of the flame and get decent soot. I does take a while.
I now use a little lamp that I bought at the BX on base in the outdoor section. 5 bucks or so. It's meant to burn citronella oil to ward off mosquitos, but works great. I use lamp oil and a bit of motor oil to increase the soot. It creates so much smoke that I snuff it in between using it to blacken my parts, otherwise I have a smoky haze in the shop.
(https://i.ibb.co/RTY8CGh/IMG-1038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chkqNKb)
Hope that helps,
Norm
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Try Prussian Blue instead of inletting black. It cleans up real easy. You can find it at NAPA auto parts stores.
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I have tried about everything and I prefer the Prussian blue to anything I have used.
Dennis
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I use an old kerosene lamp burner, with mix of lamp oil and tranny fluid. Not too much smoke and does what I need. Easy wipe off.No skeeters in shop, a real plus. LOL. Dave 8) 8)
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I gotta admit, yesterday wasn't my best day in making my first rifle.
Somewhere along the rifle building process, the barrel shifted forward, leaving a gap at the breech.
(https://i.ibb.co/VvNv28K/breech-mistake.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MRhRMLX)
Of course this is after I'd pinned the barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/D4T4CG6/breech-mistake-corrected.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K6S6qNQ)
The reason for the shifting forward, as far as I can tell, is a combination of the breech plug hitting a slight ridge on the bottom (with zero inleting black transfer) and the tang having a slightly incorrect arch. I fought it for a couple hours, stabbed myself in the wrist with my small chisel (farmer bandage and some pressure stopped the bleeding) and finally it went back into place. Of course, I did the toothpick trick again and plugged the holes. Will redrill the barrel pins when I work up the courage to do so.
(https://i.ibb.co/09fQZNY/lock-plate-in-close.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WzcsF9B)
(https://i.ibb.co/m5DwzvF/lock-plate-in.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zVnYf8H)
I finished up inleting the lock plate, and started working on lock reassembly to inlet the guts.
At this point, I am figuring out the things I didn't know that I didn't know.
As I worked on the breech inleting mistake, the gap between the tang and barrel grew in my brain. I've cut dovetails for the barrel pins, so correcting this isn't as simple as it might be. I've also seen original rifles with gaps like this, but am wondering whether I should try to correct it or just live with it.
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I have had this happen on almost every rifle I build. For me it is drilling my tang bolt hole and getting the countersink just slightly off which pushes the barrel forward when I tighten the bolt. It is best to drill the hole for your tang bolt and countersink at exactly the same angle.
I can't tell if you have your tang bolt in from the pictures, I may have missed something. You don't drill for your barrel pins until you have the tang correctly bent, bolt in place, the tang countersunk and bolt tapped into your trigger plate and everything tightened.
You may be able to slot your underlugs and work around the holes being a little off.
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Yeah, I pinned the barrel first.
But toothpicks and glue made it all better.
I'm getting the full lock plate inleted, which is going much easier than the rest
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I am no builder, had the same thought as Eric....slot the lugs. You may want to do that anyway.
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I have a toothpick or two in most of my builds.
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If it were me, I'd fix the barrel/breech plug gap before going any further. You can also move the barrel back if you haven't already. Don't worry about the barrel pins. You can install new barrel lugs or slot the existing ones, plug the holes in the wood, redrill and move on. If the looks of the toothpick plugs bother you, you can inlet an escutcheon at each pin location and you'll look like a hero ;) Just don't tell anyone what the escutcheons are covering up ;D
Good luck,
Kevin
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Luverne,
I prefer non drying prussian blue as well. A little bit goes a long way.My first tube was bought in '88 and is kind of still going. i use an acid brush for application. If you have Recreating the American Longrifle, the pointy "thing" they use is indispensable when drilling for the tang bolt. It's after the fact, but I always clamp the barrel and stock together to prevent movement when I drill for pins. I use a drill press to make sure everything is set up and drilled precisely. The underlug closest to the breach should be solid, all the rest should be slotted. I use .0620 music(piano) wire for pins. It's tough stuff and tends to eventually eat smaller side cutters. The only one that will know about your mistakes is you. No one else will.
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If it were me, I'd fix the barrel/breech plug gap before going any further. You can also move the barrel back if you haven't already. Don't worry about the barrel pins. You can install new barrel lugs or slot the existing ones, plug the holes in the wood, redrill and move on. If the looks of the toothpick plugs bother you, you can inlet an escutcheon at each pin location and you'll look like a hero ;) Just don't tell anyone what the escutcheons are covering up ;D
Good luck,
Kevin
I'm dealing with several dimensional issues at once.
I'm attempting to take care of the gap, but that is my third attempt, and each time the gap gets bigger. It won't be long until I just throw away the barrel, at this rate.
As I've moved the barrel back to correct the bad breech bedding, the touch hole is now too far to the rear, so I need put spacers behind it. At this rate, I'll need to throw away the stock.
I haven't screwed up the lock yet, but that's next on the agenda of parts to destroy.
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It is a rare gun indeed that doesn't have a shim somewhere in it, shim that sucker.
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Wouldn’t it be easier to glue in wood and re-inlet versus adding metal?
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I have had occasion ( more than once) to “improve” some of my inletting. That’s why I save some of the shavings when I use a plane or spokeshave. Just the other day I discovered that I had inletted the rear thimble a “skosh” ( or perhaps a bit more than “ a skosh”) deeper than necessary. A couple of shavings and some titebond fixed it. I’d recommend the solutions given here first, such as slotting the underlugs, but keep this in mind for the future, mainly for places that won’t show. (Shavings from the same wood should also match bettter when stained)
Mikeyfirelock. ( the mistakes I haven’t fixed are the mistakes that cant be made)
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Did some fixin' tonight.
Took less effort than the first time, because I was using a known flat surface to remove extremely small amounts of metal each time.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yhn1V3H/tang-gap-corrected.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RcrsJ9R)
With a cameo from my right foot.
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I finished inleting the lock; then located the trigger position. The trigger went in surprisingly well, and once I trimmed it to size, the lock actually fires when you push the bang switch.
I mocked up the trigger guard position just to see what it looks like.
(https://i.ibb.co/dKrg4TM/trigger-guard-mock-up.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DKtpfJW)
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Dude, you really need some red nail polish!!! hahaha. Keep at it, Dave 8) 8)
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Well, I've done a little work on it since the last post.
(https://i.ibb.co/gdh5KTJ/finishing.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9LhwpH)
(https://i.ibb.co/YWBqDJN/finishing1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hMFtXrg)
(https://i.ibb.co/bXg1H2R/finishing2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yqn0hYB)
I'm really starting to like this rifflegun. I had some assistance from Ric Lambert, who really helped me shape the thing.
I may actually shoot it this weekend.
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Looks like you've made great progress. The rifle is looking awesome - good work!
Kevin
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Good deal,man.Looking like a rifle now. Best regards, Dave F 8) 8)
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Today I sanded the barrel to 200 grit and installed the sights.
It's an easier job than I thought, but just a mite nerve wracking. I was careful, though, and they fit quite snug.
(https://i.ibb.co/xhJ8bFp/front-sight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qBkF8Jt)
(https://i.ibb.co/fF4VGVS/rear-sight-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F3gkqkW)
(https://i.ibb.co/kGKXxxh/rear-sight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x2h6DDM)
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I normally work four months overseas, with four months at home. I'm currently at the 3 month-ish mark, and they've decided I need to get my butt back over there to work, so I have spent the last few days putting in hours on this.
(https://i.ibb.co/68zKxBK/101845492-10220884921067261-3763160833341784064-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PMK2nQ2)
(https://i.ibb.co/71DVSPW/101965448-10220884920267241-6406606710315679744-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BCJjfbZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/93DWHQ0/101988324-10220884920747253-8594549444165238784-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHMZVqg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rh4FH46/102425667-10220884921307267-5324505960834662400-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YDTCjTd)
It was always intended to be a barn gun, so I haven't spent a ton of time on the finish.
I'll shoot it on Saturday, and see if it needs any more work for function, but I intend to let it sit for the next 4-6 months, and when I get home, decide whether to redo some of the things I don't like, or just keep it as a shooter and start another project.
This was a ton of fun, and I learned a bunch; am extremely eager to correct for my major mistakes on the next one. I'd like to build either a smooth bore (to hunt turkey) and an earlier rifle design.
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Looks a dandy. Get back safe and waller that barrel out with 1k roundballs!
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That's a pretty piece of wood that really popped when you got the stain on it.
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Too much wood on the forestock which takes away from the lightness these guns invoke.
Robby
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Too much wood on the forestock which takes away from the lightness these guns invoke.
Robby
I agree with you. I will probably exert myself on this task when I get back 4-6 months from now.
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LuVerne,
One of the most common mistakes new builders make is to leave the forestock too thick. The dimensions of the forestock are determined by the muzzle cap dimensions. They should carry all the way to the lock panel. The lock panel frequently has too much wood left above and below the lockplate. Don't be afraid to make the panel thinner. That also helps make the gun look slimmer.
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LuVerne,
One of the most common mistakes new builders make is to leave the forestock too thick. The dimensions of the forestock are determined by the muzzle cap dimensions. They should carry all the way to the lock panel. The lock panel frequently has too much wood left above and below the lockplate. Don't be afraid to make the panel thinner. That also helps make the gun look slimmer.
Funny thing I discovered; it's harder to build a barn rifle than one with a butt plate and muzzle cap. Deciding on muzzle and butt shape is relatively easy when you have a piece of metal to determine the shape and size they will be. But I digress.
I had a couple builders look at it last weekend, and they thought I got the wood about right above and below the lockplate, but left too much on the forestock as well. Though one guy liked the thick forestock, and showed me a couple pics of original guns that had that pronounced swell right there.
Once I get back, I'm going to attack that forestock. I was moving slow on it, and wanted it to at least have some finish on it when I took it to our club meeting on Saturday.
I also need to shape the butt.
BTW, it shot great on Saturday, and the non-builders thought it was cool. ;)
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LuVerne, I agree with your furniture observations. It's a good looking gun either way. One thing you may want to think about while you're away is to file a small bevel on the top back corner of your front sight. Pollish the bevel bright and it should show up easier.
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So, I lied.
The wood bugged me, so I went after it with a passion.
(https://i.ibb.co/W2Nr3kH/redo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MCyzhcg)
(https://i.ibb.co/HVkCKqt/102976482-10220930780213711-5000447099922378226-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/drztfDP)
(https://i.ibb.co/YTqhT3w/103373702-10220930780573720-605164197847639706-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJzDJrx)
(https://i.ibb.co/F7Y0R37/103574240-10220930779853702-1447060411321532578-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HgPx54g)
(https://i.ibb.co/317kyMx/final-product.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mns9DGz)
I can't change the 3/8" ramrod, or the 3/16" web between the barrel and the ramrod, but I'm happy with it, now. Sadly, it gets to hang on the wall for the next 4-6 months while I go off and earn bacon.