AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: R.J.Bruce on June 04, 2020, 04:40:13 AM
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How tall are you, and what length of pull do you prefer for a smoothbore fowler?
I started out in life as an adult at 5' 8 3/4" tall.
At 66 I am now 5' 8 3/8" tall.
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At my tallest I was 5-71/2". I'm now 5-6" and prefer a 13 or 13-1/2" length of pull.
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I'm about 5'6" and prefer a l.o.p. between 13.5" and 13.75" depending on how I am dressed. I can go a bit shorter for rifles.
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I'm 5'10" and I like 13.5 to 13.75
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5 Ft 8 Inches. 13.5 LOP.
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65 then/64 now/still like 14-14.5 lop.
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5'8" I am most comfortable with 13 1/4 to 13 1/2
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Was 5' 10 " and lost near an inch somewhere.
Used to like 14" for a shotgun, but a shade less now seems better.
For a rifle, I am happy with a good bit less, say 13 1/2" or so these days.
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I made mine to match my try stock, having no "old type" guns to compare to. Can't recall it just now. But:
As someone who learned to fit riders to bicycles for best optimization of muscle recruitment, comfort, and handling, I must say here that folks of the same height often have limbs of varying lengths and proportions (femur vs. tibia/fibula).
I'm an example of such, where my legs are proportioned differently than most men of my height and thereby I cannot be positioned properly on a factory-made bicycle, not without radically modifying some things, but if you build the frame, a simple shift of the seat tube makes it all good. Excess details: Hips must be a certain distance behind the bottom bracket, and this is driven by femur and foot lengths/cleat position (tibia/fibula have no bearing).
I'm only saying this because I expect arm lengths and proportions have much more to to with preferred pulls than leg/torso lengths (the only thing measured by height). Perhaps wingspan (tip to tip) and cubit (tip to elbow) would be better base measures for these comparisons? Yes we're all somewhat "square" in wingspan to height, but there's some play there.
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Im was 61 in my prime, but Im well past my prime now, and am about 6 even. I prefer a LOP somewhere in the 13 to 13&1/2 range. I find it easier to adjust to a short pull than I do a long pull. I killed a bunch of pheasants with an old 30 barreled trade gun with a 13 pull.
Hungry Horse
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Was a little over 6 ft now a little over 5ft 11 wear 34 inch sleeves I have a couple of 14" lo's that are ok but 13.5 is much better even have a 13" lOP that is fine.
Dennis
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The "Muskrat" comes in at 6' 1" and I to like 14 inch length of pull. With long arms I like the feel of 14.
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6'1 or so, 34" sleeve and 13 1/2" to 14".
This one is 13 1/2" and fits perfectly, shotgun butt in the shoulder's pocket.
(https://i.ibb.co/T0W3GVq/AHunkeler20bore010-zps3e135d41.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tXCS3J)
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OMG we're all losing inches!!!!!! :P :P :P My wife says.... oh never mind.
I've lost about 3/4" too since I was 18, spinal compression I assume. I'm 5'10 plus maybe a 1/4, and my preferred trigger reach is about 13" with a t shirt or flannel shirt. Shooting a lot of guns that I dare not mention has really altered my sense of what I'm "supposed" to like. I like to get my nose up right onto my thumb practically.
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It appears that a lot of companies offering muzzle loader kits need to reduce the length of pull on their kits by at least a half inch. Would make their guns a lot more comfortable to shoot.
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And, I have noticed that tall builders tend to build guns with lengths of pulls that suit themselves, not the average client base. The average length of pull for a smooth rifle, or a fowler selling here is almost always 14" or more.
Mike Brooks's last couple of small bore smooth rifles have been exceptions to the 14", and over avg.
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My Al Martin is 14.25" or so at the top end and my Jack Brooks Trade Gun is 13" as my shortest LOP. I shoot them all equally comfortably. The only thing that changes is how I approach the hold at the wrist. 12.5" is harder. I'm a sort of long armed 6'.
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Where you place the butt on your shoulder or arm, and where you hold THAT shoulder makes a world of difference, thus I can quite easily shoot 13" to about 14 1/4"- the .50 Beck I shot in the
postal match today. It's a bit long, but with it's flat butt, it still fits in the pocket.
Next, I'll shoot my .36 SMR(I guess) with a 13 1/2" length of pull with a mildly hooked butt plate and the English gun which fits the pocket perfectly and points like a fine shotgun, also has a 13 1/2"
length of pull.
I find no difficulty in moving the shoulder fore or aft a bit to fit the gun, whichever one I am shooting.
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Was 5' 10 " and lost near an inch somewhere.
Used to like 14" for a shotgun, but a shade less now seems better.
For a rifle, I am happy with a good bit less, say 13 1/2" or so these days.
I'm like you and was 5 feet and 10 inches and now at 84 am. 5 feet and 9 inches
and like the 14 inch pull found on an English style long range rifle I made
in 2001.
Bob Roller
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I was 6 ft 4 inches tall, but now the tape measure reads 6 ft 3 in . 67 years wears you down I guess .
My Chambers smoothbores are a hair under 14 inches, and they fit pretty good, but my rifles are between 13 1/2 and 13 3/4 and they work well.
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A good friend and great ML gun builder once told me. Often some one would ask him to build a rifle with a 14 inch trigger pull. Usually it would be some one that wanted to upgrade from a TC. Charlie would size him up. Unless the fellow was 6' 4" or so, He would ignore the fellow's request and build it with a 13 1/2" trigger pull. When he delivered it the guy would shoot it an would claim he never shot a rifle that fit him so well.
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I usually lie about my hight and weight so that my BMI sounds better for health insurance! Truth is both of these also affect pull length and the amount of drop that works depending on how old and fat I am. Pull and drop also changes the appearance of the gun to the point that it might fit you but not the type of rifle that caught your eye to begin with.
For me but don't tell my health care provider it's 5' 11" and 13 1/2".
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Creating a rifle that fits one well has so much more than LOP to deal with. Far more important is drop at the comb/wrist transition, and less important, drop at the heel. The pitch of the butt plays a crucial role in how well a rifle or gun shoulders and recoils. It seems to me that the hooked butt plates of the late flint and percussion eras were a remedy for pitch.
But to answer the op's question, I am 6 1/2" (worn down from 6"2") not by age, but by mileage. I have 35" sleeves. I prefer a rifle in the 13 1/2" - 13 3/4" range of lop, and a shotgun/fowler at 14". But I shoot my Pennsylvania fowler far more with patched roundball than with shot, so I put up with the 14" lop, and it suits me fine. What I cannot shoot well with is anything longer than 14" lop.
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I am now 5' 8.5". I used to be 5' 9.5", so down an inch. My preferred LOP is 13-14 with a less curved butt preferred. That has not changed, as my arms did not get shorter (good thing since the fish that got away are still the same size). ;)
However, I do find I much prefer barrels less than 42", with 37-40" my sweet spot. I have a Miroku Charleville musket and the 44" barrel is a bit difficult to load, especially with a heavy steel rod, due to the length.
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The recent Chuck Edwards, North Carolina style rifle offered for sale by Mr. Martin had a vaguely English buttstock design that, had I been able to afford it, looked like it would work for me. I don't know what the drops at the comb and heel were, they were not stated, but AIRC the L.O.P. was sub-14".
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For all you fellows noticing height differences over time. I submit that your span didn't change and that has more direct bearing on your fit than your height ever did.
Albeit not the subject here, it seems related.
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Wade,'
Good point and I agree.
Some of us have crippled up hands these days, and back /neck and shoulders in constant knots, and that maybe leads us to a shorter LOP being more comfortable.
Lack of movement affects us more than height I think.
Richard.
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I think the op was looking to see if there was a co-relation between height and lop. Those of us who posted our 'best before' heights are doing so out of nostalgia ... ie, I wasn't always this diminutive!
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What length of pull do I prefer? Thats a great question. Im 68. I have never had a rifle that fit properly until nearly twenty years ago when I ordered a C Sharps 74 for bpcs competition. After years of stocks that were to short the 15.5 length of pull never seamed normal. Wish that I had ordered the rifle with a standard length of pull.
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I have an acquaintance who is now 85 years old, and is also 6'8" tall. In the 70's he commissioned two Hawken rifles from me, a percussion and a flint. he insisted on 16" of pull length, and I built them. I sold the percussion rifle for him but had to re-build it to fit a guy who is 6' tall, and he loves the rifle now. The flint rifle remains at original length, but I know before I can sell it, I'll have to commit to cutting it down. Sam says his rifles are "adult size". And in his hands, they look normal.
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Would love to see what a Hawken with a 16 lop looks like.
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(https://i.ibb.co/VYGVW5v/100-7381.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9H0n9Sq)
Re-worked cap lock to 14" pull. The front triggers don't quite line up.
The felt line on the patch box locates the 14" Length Of Pull on the Flinter.
(https://i.ibb.co/vdF4QLF/100-8101.jpg) (https://ibb.co/097yFY7)
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I started at 6' 1" and probably 5' 10" now. I still like a 14.5" LOP. I have long monkey arms.
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I think the op was looking to see if there was a co-relation between height and lop. Those of us who posted our 'best before' heights are doing so out of nostalgia ... ie, I wasn't always this diminutive!
There isn't. Instead of your height and arm length, post your height and shirt size. That tells the tale. If you remember DaVinci's diagram of a man in a circle, you will know that if you lay on the ground, spread your arms straight out, then measure from finger tip to finger tip, that distance will be your height.
Obviously, the smaller your shirt size, the larger your body trunk will be, or vice-versa. I was 6' tall and wear a 42 long shirt with an 18" neck. If you wear a smaller shirt than that, then your body is obviously wide and you will require a shorter length of pull. Once again, it's the fireplug vs. the string bean syndrome that determines it.
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Most all sleaves are too short for my monkey arms.
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I think the op was looking to see if there was a co-relation between height and lop. Those of us who posted our 'best before' heights are doing so out of nostalgia ... ie, I wasn't always this diminutive!
There isn't. Instead of your height and arm length, post your height and shirt size. That tells the tale. If you remember DaVinci's diagram of a man in a circle, you will know that if you lay on the ground, spread your arms straight out, then measure from finger tip to finger tip, that distance will be your height.
Obviously, the smaller your shirt size, the larger your body trunk will be, or vice-versa. I was 6' tall and wear a 42 long shirt with an 18" neck. If you wear a smaller shirt than that, then your body is obviously wide and you will require a shorter length of pull. Once again, it's the fireplug vs. the string bean syndrome that determines it.
Well said, It's all about wing span, not height!
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in a 40 13 3/4 to 14 is fine, for the bigger guns 50 and larger 14 to 14 1/8 -- i am 6'3". I shoot 15" lop for my sporting clays gun but for my rifles i like them more snug.
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There's another thread on this over in gun building and between both threads a lot of guy contributed.
Although my mediocrity as a gun builder has kept me in Pecatonica or Chambers components, I never took a tape measure to pull length.
I want to get down on the cheekpiece and feel solid on my upper arm so I don't twist the gun.
I shoot well if I concentrate and don't close my eyes or flinch.
(https://i.ibb.co/sCvSz0z/fiwren5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9YRLhL)
Somehow, I don't remember anybody from my battalion in Uncle Sams Misguided Children asking the D.I. ..."SIR! Can you guys shorten the pull on my M-14? It don't feel right and I need between 13 and 14 inches. SIR!" I was on my way to a perfect score until some Looey came over and adjusted my sitting position and I threw a round into the dirt about twenty yards in front of the target. "That's well, son, That's well."
Thanks, Putz
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Wade,'
Good point and I agree.
Some of us have crippled up hands these days, and back /neck and shoulders in constant knots, and that maybe leads us to a shorter LOP being more comfortable.
Lack of movement affects us more than height I think.
Richard.
Richard nailed my condition perfectly. I had an odd form of arthritis in each shoulder complete with nerve damage, surgeries, pt etc...
When I was young and healthy, 14 inch lop was fine. Now the shorter the better, as long as recoil doesnt make my thumb punch me in the nose.
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At about 5'4" (close to 5'5" if I'm pressed absolutely flat against the wall) I do well with 13" lop and that's what most of mine measure. But the last time I got a flintlock I specified a 12.5" lop. While 13" was excellent, 12.5" was perfect. Being from Georgia originally it was rare to need much in the way of heavy clothing during the season. T-shirts would sometimes do just fine. Now I live in Maine and heavier clothes are often the rule. But not always. Last season was a good example. I'm light framed and don't have a lot of bulk to reach around with my arms.
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Hanshi...I'm light framed and don't have a lot of bulk to reach around with my arms.
Go ahead and capture the core issue in this whole thread, why don't ya?
The closest thing to the simple answer yet.
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5 7 and 13.5 or so.
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6'2" with long arms. 14.5-15" pull
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At 5'10" I find anything between 13-14" to be just fine.
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Wade...I submit that your span didn't change and that has more direct bearing on your fit than your height ever did.
Leather workers are taught to never let thread length exceed their span...distance from one palm to the other with both arms outstretched. That's for control.
I noticed that, when starting to shoot Little Fellers from Chambers, the tighter 13" pull enabled me to control the muzzle a little more. Anybody else shoot different lengths and finding that out?
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Too short doesn't work for me. It puts my nose against my thumb. So, I have to move my thumb to the side and that doesn't feel natural.
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I am about 5'6", and very thin. I think the amount of "meat on your bones" may affect your preferred length of pull, too, but that's just a theory. I prefer something in the 13-1/4" to 13-1/2" range, when not wearing a heavy coat.
I think the amount of drop and castoff may be almost as important. If I shoulder a stock with more than about 3" of drop, I have to hunt for the front sight.
I have handled a few old English percussion doubles. The builders knew stock geometry... Those guns point like a dream!
Notchy Bob
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A lot of drop bangs your cheek with recoil too. I'm not a fan.
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It appears that a lot of companies offering muzzle loader kits need to reduce the length of pull on their kits by at least a half inch. Would make their guns a lot more comfortable to shoot.
I'm 6'3" with a 20" neck and 36/37 inch sleeve with a somewhat severe slope to my shoulder. I need all the length I can get and would much rather cut down a stock than need to add an inch or two. Don't even get me started on drop at face.
Manufacturers would do well to accommodate as many customers as possible. Some of us make it more challenging for them.
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A lot of drop bangs your cheek with recoil too. I'm not a fan.
A comb angle that slopes up at the front, down to a low heel, whacks the cheek bone as any recoil, even a little .45, brings the comb into the cheek bone. Just a little bump, but every
time the gun is shot. The "bumps" add up to a sore cheek bone after a number of shots. A flat or fairly flat comb with a higher heel in comparison to the low heel, high comb, does not
do that which is typical of the Jaeger and English Sporting rifles along with some Penn. rifles, especially the earlier ones.
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at 6'1 I like 13 1/2 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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6' 2" with a 36 arm length and 14" feels best .