AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Curtis on September 30, 2020, 07:13:35 AM
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I just feel sick! :-[
In the process of starting to engrave my last major part on my Alexander Henry rifle, I somehow managed to let my barrel take a tumble from my vice - I thought it was locked in but alas it was not. It fell about four feet, bounced on my rubber floor mat and flipped breech first into the concrete floor for a double hit. I'm looking for ideas on how I might save the breech but I am afraid it will need to be replaced. One top corner got crushed and behind the snail it got pretty mangled. After the photos were taken I peened the back of the breech flat again but it wasn't enough to raise the crushed corner. I don't think I can do much for the mangled part short of filing the damage off.
I have though of attempting to build up a bead with my tig welder and then file it back, but I''m not sure I have enough skill to keep from making it worse.
Any good ideas out there short of starting over with a new breech?
Here is the damage:
(https://i.ibb.co/KjK0svb/P9292756-LI.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z62LgDG)
(https://i.ibb.co/mFVTNWR/P9292758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PzvjDHr)
(https://i.ibb.co/TvR92bH/P9292763.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QbnyQC6)
Of course the standing breech is already engraved which will make fitting a new plug a delicate operation....
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! I may be away from the computer for a day or two but will respond when I can.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MQTFYf/P9222729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VCZsLpP)
Thanks, Curtis
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Curtis,
I am sorry to hear of the damage on your breece plug.
I have 3 options:
File of the breece plug and fill it up with a silver plate.
Or, you can use a steel plate.
I think, you leave the damage and make a new breece plug, I know you can do that.
A lot of success!
Adrie
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I don’t think it’s all that bad, it does suck that it happened but Murphy’s Law kicks in when you least expect it. It will take some file work to clean back up and the re-do some of the nice work you had there. You would be surprised when all is said and done, know one but you will notice. Your project has been shaping up nicely, don’t let this set back taint it. Unless you have a tig welder and really know to use it, I’m not sure I’d go that route.
Bob
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I would send the plug to Peter Nagel of Restorative Welding. He has a website. He is excellent with a tig welder and specializes in gun repairs. Have him weld on a blob, which you can then file back to original form.
His prices and lead time are very reasonable.
Do it right, that is going to be a nice rifle.
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I would leave it alone,could be chasing a feather.
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I would send the plug to Peter Nagel of Restorative Welding. He has a website. He is excellent with a tig welder and specializes in gun repairs. Have him weld on a blob, which you can then file back to original form.
His prices and lead time are very reasonable.
Do it right, that is going to be a nice rifle.
Restorative welding by a specialist would be my choice followed by careful filing.
Bob Roller
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Curtis, I assume Jim W. is still hanging out here? He has a guy that he used on my Rigby to do some welding on the hammer. Either way, you have his email I am sure, if not I do.
Fleener
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Curtis I am sorry you had that accident . But I would bet based on your other skills that you can fix it your self.. If you have done a bit of tig welding I would bet you can fix it.. I would give it a try.. If you are not happy then send it to someone.
Just my opinion...Louie
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Some very good suggestions there guys, thanks. Whatever I do I will think on it a while before I jump in the deep water.
Art, I have Jim's email and will certainly consider that option.
FlintFan, I have heard of Peter Nagal before and will also consider that option as well.
I have a TIG welder, but I'm not sure I have enough skill for something this delicate. I will play with some scraps and see if doing it myself is even practical or just a bad idea.
Thanks guys!!!
Curtis
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Curtis,
I've done a fair amount of welding on the standing breech end of those rifles. I use an oxy/acetyl torch with 1/16" 2% nickel rods from Brownells. With a small flame, it's possible to add a single blob of material.
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I don’t know about the repair, but your engraving is superb! Great work, Curtis, and good luck! Best,
Ed
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Curtis,
I've done a fair amount of welding on the standing breech end of those rifles. I use an oxy/acetyl torch with 1/16" 2% nickel rods from Brownells. With a small flame, it's possible to add a single blob of material.
Thanks for the tip TOF. Went to Brownells' web site and all I see is 3-1/2% nickel steel rods, is that perhaps what you are using?
I will be having the breech plug color cased, will the welded area color case the same as the plug steel?
I don’t know about the repair, but your engraving is superb! Great work, Curtis, and good luck! Best,
Ed
Thanks Ed!
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Another question for you all - I think a gold band will hold up to color case temps, will fine silver take the heat as well? I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.
I am thinking if I were to do a silver or gold inlay where I have the border outlined on the plug it may be able to move enough metal to raise the dented corner on the top of the plug. Anyone have some thought to share along those lines? Does that sound workable?
I have also considered the possibility of masking the corner ding with some engraving... perhaps?
Curtis
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Good idea on a band, or carefully putting a spot of weld there and dressing it properly.
Some guys in specialty shops have the requisite skill for that work - both places.
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Another question for you all - I think a gold band will hold up to color case temps, will fine silver take the heat as well? I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.
Curtis
Melting point for fine silver is 1761 fahrenheit. I used fine silver on the rear bands of a purcussion pistol. It turned quickly black . I'd stick to gold. Good luck !
Best regards
Rolf
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Cutis
Your impacted spots are fairly small. As you know CCH gives you a good range of random colors. Even if you got a off color on the welded spots no one would notice except you.
Fleener
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You are doing a terrific job on that rifle Curtis!
Your engraving is some of the nicest I've seen.
Blob of weld and dress it up, is my suggestion.
I even thought how leaving it would add authenticity!...How many originals do we see with some marring , that we are willing to overlook?
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I would take the breach and send it to Cole Haugh, Jack's son who now runs the gun shop. He has done excellent welding for me in the past, and I would trust him . They are in Milan, Indiana.
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I seem to remember seeing silver bands on an original Alex Henry or similar target gun with a color cased plug.
The silver lines were most likely platinum or one of it's alloys. In 19th century text one of the platinum alloys that was commonly used was referred to as "platina". Platinum is the best (and most expensive of course) metal you could use for anything that will be exposed to heat, and like gold it will not tarnish.
You could use a platinum alloy with ruthenium, which is less expensive, but for this purpose will give you all the physical and cosmetic benefits of platinum.
Jewelry supply houses usually sell it by the inch and small diameter wire isn't too expensive.
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I am not in the same league here as far as gun builder expertise goes, but I have dropped a few things I had worked very hard to make as perfect as possible and understand the need to repair the damage. My comment would be as follows:
1. Unless the tiny "ding" on the corner of the octagon is worse than it appears in the picture, I would bump it back into place, as much as possible, from the back end of the plug and blend it.
2. I would, as others suggest, TIG weld repair the damage near the nipple and reshape that.
3. Use gold for the bands and not silver. But in addition, and I learned this from JerryWH, make sure that every part of the gold wire inlay area is CLEAN before you hammer in the gold and then do the color case hardening. If there is any dirt, oil, lube.....ANY organic material trapped under the gold (or platinum), it will blow out the inlay metal as you bring the part up to case hardening temperature.
Magnificent work on that rifle....best of luck with the repair !
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Went to Brownells' web site and all I see is 3-1/2% nickel steel rods, is that perhaps what you are using?
Yes, CRS took over for a moment. I've got 2 different sizes. Can send you a couple of each.
I will be having the breech plug color cased, will the welded area color case the same as the plug steel?
Before the blank tangs became available, I used to weld the spring hole up. I think Snapper had all of his color cased with no ill effects.
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Curtis,
I've done a lot of TIG in the past. I don't know how the nickel rod will work, but I suspect that the nickel is there for weldability. If it was me, I'd use copper coated steel wire. If you know anyone one with a Mig welder, get a couple of pieces of 0.035" or 0.45 wire to use as filler wire. The trick to doing this is to keep the weld moving. The copper coating is there to help keep oxygen out of the weld and won't affect the final product. You don't need penetration for strength, just a deposit on the metal that can be filed down.
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Maybe a jewelers in your neck of the woods does lazer welding, if so supply him with one of the welding rods suggested. Sorry about the accident.
Richard
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I took advantage of a cool spell here and spent the night doing a little primitive camping on the back of my place last night. Enjoyed a nice fire and came back to the house with a clear head and a better attitude! I see some great thoughts, ideas and suggestions and comments were posted while I was out.
TOF - I would take you up on the offer of a couple of each size of those rods. If I don't end up using them for this repair I would definitely try them on another project. You should have my home address but if you can't find it shoot me an email.
Davec2 - thanks for your thoughts and the info concerning a clean space for wire inlay when doing color case. That shouldn't be a problem but after reading that I will always double check before hammering in any wire. I will likely try your #1 suggestion for the "ding" before I go the welding route.
FlintFan - you are probably correct, what I saw was likely platinum. I probably have enough gold on hand to do a couple if bands and will use that if I decide to do an inlay.
Snapper - very good point, it should blend right in.
Rolf - Good info to know! I will avoid using silver!
Not English - I have a Mig welder and have some of both size wires you mention. I hadn't thought of using Mig wire and will keep that in mind.
After returning from my overnight camp with a clear head I took another look at the damage behind the nipple and decided to see if I could move some of that metal back in place. First I used a section of steel rod that fit the area (I held it in place with my fingers but needed one hand to hold the camera):
(https://i.ibb.co/85GvsQ4/PA022764.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqdZTPF)
And a slightly smaller screwdriver shaft for more control on the curve:
(https://i.ibb.co/x8fBXyM/PA022767.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPxvQSb)
Then a slightly rounded punch:
(https://i.ibb.co/58rsZrN/PA022768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Phc1kc7)
(https://i.ibb.co/HVv9W33/PA022769.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6mhq3LL)
And a graver handle to flatten the plug face again:
(https://i.ibb.co/JqvjQvh/PA022771.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cw6hL6m)
It now looks considerably better, I think I a little careful file work will take care of the rest.
(https://i.ibb.co/7CstJkK/PA022772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8s1gDY9)
(https://i.ibb.co/54PfC43/PA022773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8sHSGsw)
Thanks for the help,
Curtis
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I have a work friend, ex-Navy like me, who always said to me "the sign of a true craftsman is not how well he does his work, but how well he fixes his mistakes".
You're a true craftsman Curtis.
Mike
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You can fix that by punching it up from the breech plug side. After you punch it up you will have to put in a iron inlay where you punched it on the back. I have fixed places like this a few times before. No Bull. Don't just leave it. The other work is so great.
Looking at your first photo, See the arrow you used to point it out? take a pointed punch and punch just below the flaw and make the part where the flaw is raise up enough to be able to file it down to where the flaw is gone. Then you will have to install a iron inlay where you punched it. Don't punch too close to the edge or it will be hard to put in the iron inlay. Don't file down the flaw until the inlay is in.
Then if you mess up it can be tig welded.
Just bragging some but I can tid weld 2 needles together. I have built up the edge of the flash guard on a very small french flint lock. I can tig weld the end on a sear or the notch on a tumbler. Done it lots. Mig or acetylene is not the way to go here. The best way is bump up and iron inlay.
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Jerry, I wish I would have seen your post earlier today, it would have saved me a lot of experimentation!! Turns out I came upon the very solution you described. So once again it is proven, old guys know their stuff and they deserve respect! ;) I wish I could weld as good as you describe, I really need to practice, practice practice!
I started out with a barrel cutoff I had in the shop by putting a ding on two corners. The first ding I was able to lift an repair by lots of hammering with rounded punches, I had to move a lot of metal and it took a great deal of time and care to keep from damaging the edge.
While I was doing all of that hammering, I got well acquainted with the shape of the dent I was attempting to raise, basically just a triangle. So I thought, what is a triangle but a flat profile of a cone? So I used a couple different sizes of center punches and one that I ground with a more tapered cone and within a few minutes (and with MUCH less labor) I had enough metal raised to start peening into shape. Here are some photos of the second phase of my experiment:
(https://i.ibb.co/dP96b6M/PA032778.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWwkskp)
(https://i.ibb.co/7bb4Q4L/PA032780.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g66VdVh)
(https://i.ibb.co/1v4fBdP/PA032781.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BzYVvrQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/X2nCPcT/PA032782.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1vCmNFx)
(https://i.ibb.co/JBfLvFf/PA032783.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDLs9FL)
I used a black sharpie followed by a couple of strokes of 600 grit paper backed by a file to identify high and low spots:
(https://i.ibb.co/j8ttP8L/PA032784.jpg) (https://ibb.co/10cct09)
When finished the ding was ready for final sanding. In the lower left corner on the end view photo you can see black markings left from my first experiment:
(https://i.ibb.co/KWpQyfh/PA032787.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6F7psTw)
(https://i.ibb.co/sCLd9rv/PA032788.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzyTp5M)
I then felt ready to start working on the breech ding on my Alexander Henry barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/TPzVLVZ/PA032790.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1RHD6D3)
(https://i.ibb.co/n6p4Jm4/PA032791.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djZXYMX)
(https://i.ibb.co/NF28RDV/PA032793.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hgFP0Q7)
Once I was happy with that phase I went over to the nipple side, did a little more peening, some filing and polishing. I was happy with the results considering the original damage! All I have left to do is inlay an iron plug as Jerry described in his post. Here are some photos:
(https://i.ibb.co/YkGNFmH/PA032795.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C7Fw3gR)
(https://i.ibb.co/bXdsbx4/PA032797.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fz75H9Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8qs8c5/PA032798.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LQq4QPG)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsXWNZR/PA032800.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rwnKg9G)
I want to thank everyone who offered opinions and advice in this thread, and those who gave names of persons capable of quality welding. Also thanks for the words of encouragement concerning my engraving and craftsmanship! It has been a positive learning experience for certain. Oh, and the best solution award goes out to Jerry!!! ;D
Now back to engraving, I will post that on the Alexander Henry thread as it comes along....
Curtis
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That repair looks perfect!!!! Thanks for showing the process. A lot to learn.
Best regards
Rolf
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Great save and thanks for documenting the repair so carefully. If you get time please post the process of the iron inlay. That will make this thread a useful reference for the future.
Troy
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Great job Curtis.
But where is the iron inlay to be placed? I presume it is to fill the area of the original preening was done.
Thanks
Jeff
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Thanks guys! In this case the "iron inlay" will simply be peening a wire or tiny sliver of metal into the tiny hole left on the breech face, where the punch mark remains. It is a rather small mark on the breech of the rifle, but a larger hole can be seen on the test barrel.
Curtis
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GJ (good job) Curtis. "Punch it up" when I read that I thought, now why didn't I think of that. ;D
Well done Jerry.
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Good job Curtis. That is a beautiful gun. Now all you need to do is fill the punch mark.
Knowledge is passed on down from one generation to another. Almost everything I know was learned from other more experienced guys I have met. Very little is thought up by myself. That is the way the world of knowledge is. I learned a tremendous amount about moving metal from 2 or 3 old end very experienced engravers. Sam Welch, Robert Evans and Ron Smith. All Engravers make mistakes just like any other craftsmen. But fixing them is the real art. I have only heard of one mistake that couldn't be fixed but I can't remember what it was.
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Good job Curtis. That is a beautiful gun. Now all you need to do is fill the punch mark.
Thanks Jerry! The punch mark is pretty small and it shouldn't take much to fill.
Knowledge is passed on down from one generation to another. Almost everything I know was learned from other more experienced guys I have met. Very little is thought up by myself. That is the way the world of knowledge is. I learned a tremendous amount about moving metal from 2 or 3 old end very experienced engravers. Sam Welch, Robert Evans and Ron Smith. All Engravers make mistakes just like any other craftsmen. But fixing them is the real art. I have only heard of one mistake that couldn't be fixed but I can't remember what it was.
Very well said. I believe I speak for many here, but I am glad that guys like you are willing to share the knowledge they have been taught or learned on their own. Things such as that are what make this sight so awesome!
Curtis
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Really well done, you've got to be happy with that. Back at the beginning of the thread there were some folks listed that might have been able to help, now you can add your name to that with with the addition of "Can do it".
Tim
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That turned out great.