AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: LynnC on August 23, 2009, 06:26:24 AM
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Forgive me if I've asked this in the last year or two but there are so many new knowledgeable members.
I have Grinslades Fowler book and a truly great book it is, but I was disappointed that not a single fowler was included south of perhaps Maryland
He just stated that none were available or non existant
When I inquired before, past answers were that southern fowlers were in one of these categories:
1) imported English fowlers of varying grades
2) imported trade guns
3) if any southern fowlers were made, they were used up between the Revolution and the Civil War - no survivors
I just can't believe that no flint fowlers were made in the Carolinas of Georgia or Tenn. and that none survive today.
So I hope to get some new answers this go round...................Thanks
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Lynn - Mark Elliot has a great Simon Lauck (Winchester Va.) fowler - maybe 1790s-1805 era, on his website under "Antique guns" - it sounds like you are looking for earlier examples, but this still has a relatively early feel.
http://www.valongrifles.com/
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Thanks Guy
I remember seeing that one now and yes a very nice fowler. Thanks for the reminder. Certainly not too late a gun. I really don't think that I'll be finding a pre Rev War fowler down south. Much of the south was settled late 18th century/early nineteenth. I feel that guns from Virginia, Kentucky were probably influenced by Penn and the New England states. My theory is that the farther southern states of the Carolinas & Tenn may have had a different influence. Perhaps just as fine in the eastern states or a simpler in form more westerly. Who can say? I'm just hoping for some guns to turn up that might proove or disproove this thought. Surely a few southern flint fowlers were made and survive.
With all the new members that have southern interests, I am hopeful that they have seen something................................Lynn
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There is a fowler by the same hand that built the "Faber" rifle. Looks almost identical except for a fowler styled trigger guard, no cheek piece and no patch box.
I'm pretty convinced the need for fowlers in the South was mainly satisfied by imports from england.
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I just can't believe that no flint fowlers were made in the Carolinas of Georgia or Tenn. and that none survive today.
Hey, they are all over the place. I'd be willing to wager that there are at least 50 people on this board who own a Jackie Brown "Carolina Smoothbore." ;) ;)
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Lynn:
I agree with Mike on all accounts above.
If you read my posts you will get some background on this topic. These ancestors of mine were money engravers, Scottish trained gunsmiths, "Indian Traders to the Cherokee in GA", and militia captains. 1690 to 1770's. Myzack had shipping interests all over. Scotland, England, Ireland, Holland, Germany. Could buy and sell anything. They also had homes and shops in Charleston, SC in the "iron monger" area/district of Charleston.
I have James Myzack's will dated 1725 and John Ballentine's will dated 1764; in Charleston, SC and it lists: swan shot, cutlasses, silver hilted small sword, powder flasks, shot pouches, cartouche boxes, clasp knives, "2 guns", "cuteau", sword....and the list goes on and on.
Other than the silver hilted small sword, no real qualitative descriptions. Darn!
No listing of guns as if one "manufactured" them. I do not doubt for a minute that they imported them.
Now either Massey or Ballentine bought out a Clinton fellow from Barbadoes who was an English trained gunsmith, "around"...1720. No particulars on the inventory/estate purchase though. Strike out there as well.
And I have asked numerous times of my cousins in SC to keep a lookout for any guns. So far, no luck.
Thanks;
Salkehatchie
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I do not recall ever seeing photographs of it, but John Bivins often spoke of a fine Charleston make double fowler. I remember he said it was top quality and even had gold lined pans.
John was a careful researcher and I believe his opinion that this fowler was Charleston made and not an English import marked for a Charleston retailer.
Hope that jogs someones memory who has more details.
Gary
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Thanks Mike - Where can a photo of the Faber Fowler be found?
OK TOF ;D
Salkehatchie - I have read some of your family research posts. I fully agree that there were wealthy merchants in the Eastern seabouard cities importing fine arms for sale in the colonies or the new nation. You are stearing me to modify my request. I'll comment below.
Gary, that sounds like a nice flint double - thanks
Modifying my question.
Knowing the frugalness of the southern people, no useable gun parts were ever discarded, especially gun barrels. They must have been recycled into restocked shooters. Lots of southen gunsmiths were turning out rifles, why not fowlers?
So, maybe the fowlers I'm looking for are a plainer working mans gun from the then western frontier.
And perhaps they are all used up............
Still hoping to hear from a few more members before I give up.....................Lynn
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Gary's post reminded me. I had the Charleston double gun in my shop several years ago for some minor restoration. It was every bit the quality piece one would expect of a fine London made double, but was signed "Charleston" and the Charleston gunmaker's name. Sorry I don't remember the name. I believe the owner at that time is no longer with us, and I presume the gun is now owned by the son or family. It was a privilege and honor to work on such a fine piece and have a chance to study it.
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A number of years ago while at the Las Vegas Winter Show, I noticed a long barreled (49 inchs) smooth gun with a rakish profile lying on a table. Fortunately, I had read Bivin's book on the Carolina Rifle not long before, and his statement that he had never seen a smooth gun/fowler in his examinations of Carolina made guns was still with me. Well, that was exactly what I was looking at. The owner and I struck a deal and I went home with the gun.
I did have the opportunity to show it to Ray McKnight while at the show and he was quite excited over it and agreed with my assessment that it is the 'hen's tooth'. He further commented that this was the kind of gun that Andy Jackson's men from the area would have carried to New Orleans, in his opinion. !Ojala!
The gun is long and slender (buggy whip architecture?) with about a .60 caliber bore; it is half round and has the initials 'f. B.' on the top flat. The stock is of a good maple with some stripe; there is no patchbox. It has a cheek rest, however and some inlays; there is some rather simple engraving on the metal parts, brass, silver and iron.
It was originally a flintlock, but is now in percussion.
Guess that all that needs to be done now is to get some photos of it to post here for viewing and comments. It's a neat gun which has had lots of wear and is still dirty. I have left it that way and have no regrets. Someday, it may have to go back to flint though, but no hurry on that.
Film at eleven.
Dick
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Thanks Mike - Where can a photo of the Faber Fowler be found?
It was in a Muzzle Blasts magazine in the 80's.
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If James Levy doesn't see this Post and comment, I'll call him tomorrow and get him to look at this. He may know of something that has turned up in Florida.That's his business.
I have a fair amount of stuff, probated wills, militia records, etc on my ancestors, 100% Carolina Backcountry Scott-Irish, Highland Scott and English roguish types, and while I know that a couple of the wills inventoried "guns", no descriptions were given. An ancestor in the Carolina Militia during the F&I War was issued a Trade Gun, so aparently had no firearm when deployed to northwestern SC.
Read the book "Deerskins and Duffels" and you'll see countless references to trading with the Creek Indians for deer hides from the late 1600's to about the RevWar Period. Carolina Trade Guns aparently were the ones most often funneled to the Indian Trade since it was unlawful to trade rifles to the Creeks.
I do have one caplock that is a mixmaster of cheap parts stuck togather, a real "Bubba" job, that turned up in our search for Gillespie rifles around my home in the Georgia Mountains. The barrel is octagan to round with a wedding band and possibly dates to the 18th century, but I'm not about to suggest that it's an original Southern Fowler.
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Dick, Can't wait to see photographs of your piece! ;D
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Thanks Jim C - Good to know that top quality guns were msde thst fsr south - maybe a picture will surface.
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Sorry about the spelling - Big fingers, Tiny blackberry ;D
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Dick, Now that sounds like a really interesting gun!
Love to see some pictures.
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Woodsrunner - seems as if those light slim Carolina trade guns like Mike Brooks makes were popular.
That percussion fowler of yours sounds like that frugal southern recycling ;D
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Lynn,
Did you look at this thread?:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6026.0
Not recycled, but its an example of something that was probably 1 step up and 1 step down the line from Brook's Carolina gun. These guns appear to have been fairly common. I just visited a collection that had several similar guns, including some that were likely period restocks done in what appears to be curly maple. There are also a couple of guns in Shumway's Longrifle Articles II that he attributed as Southern. They could be from anywhere, but the one on page 116 has a round barrel stamped RW for one of the Wilson's of London. Shumway put it in the 1780-90 period.
Sean
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Sean,
Yes, I did see that - what a beautiful fowler, But it is likely an English import.
I'm looking for those made here even if from import or domestic parts.
I'm in search of the Southern American Fowler ;)
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Lazy old Mr no gold asked me to post these pictures for him.
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage1aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage2aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage4aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage5aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage7aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage9aMedium.jpg)
(https://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/arljtr/NewImage3aMedium.jpg)
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Thank you Mr JTR
Now I gotta get to a real computer to see the pics (on a BlkBerry now) :)
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Well, Gaylord, Lynn and Others-Here the old thing is. I think that I mispoke on the caliber. It is closer to .69, or so. Thus far, I haven't seen another like it in real time or in books.
The 'f. B.' initials and surrounding engraving on the top barrel flat are too faint to show up in the photos. Although somewhat unsophisticated, they are nice nonetheless.
The gun was used a long time and must have been carried on horseback (across the pommel of the saddle) as the forearm is worn completely away. The owner nailed strips of brass over the ramrod channel to keep it closed in.
The percussion lock appears to be a nice English piece, but is a bit overlarge for the rifle. It most likely had a dainty Ketland type flintlock originally.
If anyone would like to have more information, just ask! Hope that you enjoy it.
Dick
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That is one neat slim trim fowler - A lot of NC influence almost Tenn looking. Keys and a thumb piece - Not a po boy!
Very much like a smooth rifle or like a Kentucky fowler in Grinslade's book. Anyway it has rifle archetechture.
So this indicates that at least one gunsmith was making a southern version of the "Kentucky" fowler. Man I wish a few more would turn up so we could get a few basic southern charicteristics!
Thanks So Much for posting these pics..................................Lynn
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Has T Dennis never seen a smoothbore by the Gillespie gunmakers?
What about Mr Briggs, Have you by chance seen any southern smoothbores?
Others?
I appreciate your input............................Lynn
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Dick, Love those loooong barrels and talk about 'trim'! Tang reminds me of a signed Samuel Lafayette-Click TN piece I used to own.
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Studying the pics, I notice the wall thickness at the muzzle looks pretty hefty.
But boy is the wood thin at the muzzle!
The gun looks really slim. Canyou estimate weight? Any barrel dimensions you might pass along to us?
Really interesting piece..........Lynn
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What a most unique piece.
I took notice of the barrel wall thickness as well.
Can't see how anyone could ever build or use that gun as a "fowler" though.
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The triggerguard and architecture have a lot of similarity to the work of Jacob Young (yeah, I know, here I go about Jacob Young again - sorry - he is my favorite gunsmith) and some related gunsmiths who worked in Middle Tennessee up into Central Kentucky in the early 1800s. The vent pick inlay in the toe, pointed tang, wrist inlay, use of escutcheons, use of extremely fine curly maple, and engraving style do as well. Very similar feel to the Woodfork rifle. The two piece sideplate looks more like Tennessee though. In any event that is a beautiful piece.
Jacob Young was related to the famous Bryant family of gunsmiths - perhaps "FB" was a Bryant? Perhaps a piece stocked up by Jacob for a Bryant shop? Hopefully Tansleman will see this and give his thoughts.
Guy
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Has T Dennis never seen a smoothbore by the Gillespie gunmakers?
What about Mr Briggs, Have you by chance seen any southern smoothbores?
Others?
I appreciate your input............................Lynn
No I haven't, the closest was an old French musket that was converted into a breech loading shotgun but this was real late definitely after the war between the states and probably in the 1870's.
I doubt very much that any of the Gillespie's ever made fowlers or smoothbores. I feel sure one of them would have turned up by now.
Dennis
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Thanks Dennis
Well maybe one day that elusive fowler will turn up.
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Guy, Just got your e-mail and looked at the smooth bore. I'll take some time with the pictures later this evening, but first impression... no relationship with the Bryan (not Bryant) shop in Fayette Co., KY. At first blush, it appears to have more North Carolina detail than from other areas. I'll take a closer look later and give you my thoughts. Dick, you have a great and most interesting gun there. Shelby Gallien
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Hi Shelby - I took a closer look at Dick's initial description and see that he does have it described as possibly a North Carolina piece - in either case - wherever it was made - what nice gun!
Guy
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Dick, On a technicality, wouldn't your piece be more 'properly' termed a smooth-rifle, it having a rear sight and all? Hard to tell, octagon-to-round but, swamped or tapered (?) with/without (?) a wedding band transition? Is the bore, at the end of the barrel somewhat oblong due to usage? Man, if that piece was any thinner (trimmer), it would only have one side! ;D Gaylord
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Hi Folks-Glad that the jpgs made it on to the site, though not all did. There was a shot of the rear sight and the transition band on the barrel along with a close up of the trigger guard. I am pleased that you like what you see. Gives support to my feelings about the old gun.
An origin in North Carolina seemed the most reasonable guess, though it is somewhat less sophisticated than most Carolina guns I have seen. If it should turn out to be a Kentucky made rifle, so much the better. Guess that the 'f.B' mark contains the clues to where it was made.
The length of the half round barrel is 49 inches and the octagonal portion is 14 inches.
There is a pronounced flare at the nose and the bore is slightly off center. It is a thick barrel, but the weight is only about 8 pounds, given the paucity of wood in the stock.
The pull is 14 inches.
Butt stock thickness is an inch and a quarter.
Bore is about .69 caliber.
Tang has two screws and is three and a half inches long.
What else would you like to know?
I have always regarded the gun as a 'smooth rifle', but in a spirited discussion with the scholarly JTR, I was given to understand that it is a fowler as it has no rifling and no patch box. So, it is presented here as a 'fowler/smooth rifle' and you can draw your own conclusions about it, (unless you happen to talk to JTR).
About sights: I have guns that are clearly fowlers from the North East and they have sights. There don't seem to be any hard and fast facts/rules on establishing what category these borderline non rifled guns fall into, (and some of those have straight rifling). So......
My thanks to all of you for your comments and interest.
Regards-Dick
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I said What? All I did was post the pics cause my good Old buddy is seriously computer challenged. ::)
And now he tries to blame me for his confusion. :o
John
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I must disagree on one point
Your comment about if it be from Kentucky so much the better
It definately has NC and Tenn charicteristics
If it be NC/TN, somuch the Rarer! ;)
Thanks again for the pics.......Lynn
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Just want to say thanks again to those that contributed and will print this out for my meager file.
Will pose the question again sometime late next year ;)
Lynn
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I don't think it's a Kentucky piece either, but I do think it might be associated with the same group of gunsmiths that Jacob Young was tied with - the guard especially, and the architectural details give it a very similar feel. He is known to have worked in Middle Tennessee near Sparta and came from North Carolina if I am not mistaken. So a mix of Tennessee and Carolina features on a gun associated with this group of gunsmiths would not be surprising- it could have originated on either side of the mountains.
Is it also possible that "FB" was the maker of a much earlier gun? i.e. could this even be a much earlier barrel from a gun brought into the western North Carolina Appalchian or Tennessee/Cumberland frontier region during the early settlement period, restocked there by a very good gunmaker in the early 19th century?
In any case, it is a really neat piece. Thanks for sharing the photos
Guy
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Since smooth rifles might be the closest thing to fowlers in some southern states, I do have one piece that might qualify. It's an early percussion smooth bore made in Kentucky with 48" barrel, no rifling, no cheekpiece, single trigger with grip rail on guard. The barrel is octagon its full length, with rifle sights. The top flat is engraved in script "S. Mathis" for Samuel Mathis. He trained under Bardstown gunsmith David Weller in Nelson county (was brother of Weller's wife Mary Mathis), and later moved to more western Logan county in Kentucky. This smooth bore was undoubtedly made in Nelson county before the move, based on its mounts and a couple of Bardstown-type silver forestock inlays. Large caliber, don't recall exactly, but probably .55-.60 at least, way too big for a ball in those somewhat later days ca. 1835. So perhaps this gun, like Dick's fine piece, was about as close to a fowler as could be found in many southern states. Shelby Gallien
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Shelby,
Sounds like another interesting gun.
What is the defining line between the fowler and the smooth rifle?
I think the crossover point may be the octagon to round barrel though Dick's gun fits the rifle catagory in most every other way.
Then again, Shelby's has no cheek piece, a fowler feature!
The southern fowler may not look at all like its north eastern cousin.........
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The "defining line" if there is one, is probably the barrel thickness. Fowlers traditionally have a thin walled barrel used only with shot, while more versatile smooth rifles have thick walled barrels that handle shot, but also a ball if need be.
Southern guns don't always fit the mold of eastern pieces. We may be looking at a regional differentiation here. Southern areas often seemed to get "more value" or more flexibility out of their products, perhaps due in part to a somewhat lower standard of living for many of its citizens compared to the average northern citizen. Thus the smooth rifle that did two functions, shot for small game and ball for larger game, was more efficient (and lower cost) than having two different, and individually more restricted, firearms. Perhaps a wealthy southern planter or merchant could afford both types of arms, but the average man would more likely turn to the smooth rifle, the best of both worlds for him, for local use.
The variations in details, such as octagon-to-round barrel vs. octagon barrel, cheek vs. no cheek, etc., may be simply internal regional preferences in the south. The key seems to be longer barrels than comparable rifles of the day, and a smooth bore often somewhat larger than bores in its rifled counterparts. I would also think that larger game lasted longer in the south than the eastern states, so the smooth rifle or smooth bore continued to have value, while back east most big game was gone, and the fowler with shot could handle most of the small stuff that was left. Shelby Gallien
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Well stated, Shelby, well stated!
Dick
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The key seems to be longer barrels than comparable rifles of the day, and a smooth bore often somewhat larger than bores in its rifled counterparts.
There were all kinds of fowling pieces. the ones we most associate with the north are water fowling guns with long barrels. A common sporting gun for partridge and general shooting could have a 38-40" barrel as is seen on numerous originals.
I think as a general rule in the south, fowling pieces were brought in by export due to cost. I believe there is a very small window if any between these export fowling guns, which could be had in various qualities and the later hardware variety shotgun.
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I think the original question was about the possibility of fowlers being made in the southern states by local gunmakers, and if so, then what did they look like, since the poster had not seen any. So we have side-stepped the issue of imported fowlers in the southen states, and focused on guns made by southern gunsmiths that might be considered a type of fowler to their owner/users.
The last responder brought up an interesting issue, i.e. the long barrels for water fowl, and shorter barrels for inland sport shooting.... at least on imported English fowlers. That poses the question of why so many of the known fowlers made in PA by Kentucky rifle makers, or even these southern smooth rifles that we think were used as fowlers, have longer barrels usually 48" or more. Were they all used for shooting over water? I'd guess not, and that they were used for small game that was sitting still, rather than taking flight... which was probably the most common way of taking small game for the table, whether feathered or furred, in the interior states. Shelby Gallien
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I have very much enjoyed the additional comments!
Thanks to Shelby for keeping the dicussion on course.
Yes, I'm hoping to discover what a southern mountain gunsmith made fowler might have looked like.
So far, it would seem that it will look very much like its rifled sibling!
Thanks and please continue! I'm learning a lot....