AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: rollingb on November 24, 2020, 05:59:22 PM

Title: Old ramrods
Post by: rollingb on November 24, 2020, 05:59:22 PM: I've got a question for everyone who collects antique rifles and fowlers, how were the ramrods designed?

Were they just a simple wooden rod with no brass ferrule on either end, or maybe just a bit "flared" on one end?

I can't picture "ramrods" from 200-300-400 years ago looking like the ones we use today with brass ferrules and jags.

TIA rollingb
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Dennis Glazener on November 24, 2020, 06:21:09 PM: Here is an original from a late 1700 or early 1800 Augusta County VA flint rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/0c3vDs9/rr-tip.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZVC7L2g)
The rod itself is straight grained hickory. No jag was with the rifle but Jim Web told me that it probably had a worm like the one shown below:

(https://i.ibb.co/D7hdpJg/jag.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9dnwPz)

I have a late 1830 early 1840 flint rifle made by James Gillespie of Henderson County NC that also has the original ram rod. It too has an iron tapered end similiar to the above ram rod. That rod is also straight grained hickory, but the other end has a jag carved into the wood. It too is missing the worm/jag for the threaded end. Sorry I have no photos available for it and right now I do not have access to the rifle to take photos.
Dennis
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: smokinbuck on November 24, 2020, 06:27:55 PM: I have a couple of Fowler and an old double that have brass tulips on one end and. Concealed screw tip on the other. All are on original guns. Most rifles have straight or tapered, rods with spiral grooves, or none, cut on one end.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Avlrc on November 24, 2020, 06:44:10 PM: Here is an old one. Came with a rifle that was made 1820 circa. Not sure if the ramrod and jag is that old, but looks pretty old.

(https://i.ibb.co/Mcf1JRw/IMG-0004-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cb69SnC)

(https://i.ibb.co/pnGLTV8/IMG-0005-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QXzKVSR)

(https://i.ibb.co/MkygQ1Z/IMG-0008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HmpS4c)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Dennis Glazener on November 24, 2020, 06:48:34 PM: Wallace Gusler once showed me a 3/4 stock gun that had the ram rod even with the end of the stock. Maybe another 12-14" of barrel showing after the end of the forearm. He pulled the rod out and showed me how it fit the full length of the barrel. The baleen ram rod was flexible and the ram rod hole went under the lock, down into the wrist/butt stock. This allowed the rod to be flush with the end of the 3/4 length forearm. I believe it was a European made Fowler.
Dennis
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: rollingb on November 24, 2020, 07:19:45 PM: Thanks fellas,.... I've read where beaver trappers heading to the Rockies would sometimes stop and cut "wiping sticks" whenever they happened across suitable sticks, and they even traded those "wiping sticks" at rendezvous. No where had I seen any mention of "ferrules or jags" in those accounts, so I was under the impression they may not have been a big deal, or even needed, when loading/cleaning their weapons.

Many thanks for the replies and pictures.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on November 24, 2020, 07:41:33 PM: I noticed that although many thousands of guns were made here during the muzzleloading era, a very small percentage of them remain extant. I suspect that many of those that didin't survive were poorly maintained, through perhaps laziness or poor cleaning technique and equipment. I have no wish to emulate that part of history. But suit yourself.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Seth Isaacson on November 24, 2020, 08:26:44 PM: The one with my rifle has a brass ferrule at the ramming end and a tapered iron section on the other end. Many other originals I've seen are similar, especially the brass ferrule on the end. I've seen many guns with just plain hickory rods. Some of these are of course replacements. Lot of English guns from the 19th century have brass tips on each end and the rear end has a piece that threads off and covers a puller. Similar to this:
(https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/rt/rt-20-6_1.jpg)
(https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/rt/rt-cw-6_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: blienemann on November 24, 2020, 08:47:05 PM: Hi Seth, here are both ends of a "near new" Christian Oerter rifle ramrod from 1774, and I've seen the same tips on several other Oerter rifles. Records mention "brass loops" on the loading end of ramrods, from the German tradition of bone, but now brass, for strength. The small end of rods carried either a "single or double scraper" or tow worm, which probably meant single or double tines. Reversible tow worms are sometimes mentioned.

The approach varied considerably, with the iron tip for worm very common on the small end, but often the loading end flared as large as possible, might be cupped but left plain wood. Like so many questions, you need to study time and location, and the variety that we find. Bob

(https://i.ibb.co/9pHtf1Z/closed-end-ramrod-tip-email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JcjQbG3)

(https://i.ibb.co/jM1bYbH/ramrod-tip-email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2tfWrW5)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Seth Isaacson on November 25, 2020, 12:01:10 AM: The rod with my Krider rifle has a longer iron section on the rear end. The ramming end is a brass band with the front end open not closed like Blienemann just showed. Like this one: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Screen-Shot-2015-10-25-at-4.56.28-PM-600x374.png

The wood is somewhat cupped on mine within the ferrule rather than flat like that rifle. I have definitely seen other rifles setup with brass tips like Blienemann shared. I have not paid particular attention to ramrod tips in general. Though now you've put it on my mind.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Daryl on November 25, 2020, 07:00:33 AM: Quote from: Avlrc on November 24, 2020, 06:44:10 PM
Here is an old one. Came with a rifle that was made 1820 circa. Not sure if the ramrod and jag is that old, but looks pretty old.

(https://i.ibb.co/Mcf1JRw/IMG-0004-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cb69SnC)

(https://i.ibb.co/pnGLTV8/IMG-0005-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QXzKVSR)

(https://i.ibb.co/MkygQ1Z/IMG-0008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HmpS4c)

I have one just like that, but was from a SxS cap lock shotgun of English make. I am very sure if their locks crossed the pond, so-did their accouterments, to be used and/or copied.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Avlrc on November 26, 2020, 12:44:01 AM: Daryl, Very possible, or maybe most likely they did.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Pukka Bundook on November 27, 2020, 05:32:46 PM: Earlier 18th C English rammers had a worm on the small end, uncovered. These were the style of the corkscrew or tow worm.
The other end nearly always had a brass or horn cap for ramming. This was bell-shaped.
In the later 18th C, the ramrod usually had a worm with a cover that was removed for use, and retained the flared brass or horn rammer on the other end.

Here are details of a ramrod from the early 1500's;
(https://i.ibb.co/2Mb0mx0/1-75s-a232177-f.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5wfN1f)

(https://i.ibb.co/Ytvvn3X/1-75s-a232177-h-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDhhdbB)

(https://i.ibb.co/RCTt8VR/original-WZ7-SUOLL.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tbpnRWV)

The last photo is the kind of uncovered worm aften found on earlier 18th C arms, but in this case a pistol rod, and with the "darwing pin" ramming end.

Best,
R.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Jerry Girard on November 29, 2020, 12:33:58 AM: Seth I.
Could you post photos of your Krider rifle? I have a small collection of Krider items and have done some Krider displays at the Allentown Forks of the Delaware show. The following photos are of some pre-1850 rifle ramrods: R. W. Houghton, Norway, Maine; John Krider; H. L. Leonard target rifle, Bangor, Maine and a Worchester County, Mass. rifle. Regards to all, Jerry
(https://i.ibb.co/yfKhMCT/Houghton-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bzv47JD)

(https://i.ibb.co/8s757wX/Krider-Target-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sy3n3gJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/vJ1SnMp/Leonard-Target-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yt2xsVm)

(https://i.ibb.co/GpvQgzn/NE-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F3b4GRm)

(https://i.ibb.co/F0B5kQ7/NE-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnD7qXk)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Dave Tercek on November 29, 2020, 07:41:51 PM: This is another old one from a Bedford County Joseph Mills rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/2YXrhhx/IMG-1571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xq344m)

(https://i.ibb.co/FJdStn9/IMG-1572.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VDk783d)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: smart dog on November 29, 2020, 08:30:37 PM: Hi,
Here is an original rod from a 1760s English fowler.
(https://i.ibb.co/SVxTsqH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6DZhn6G)

dave
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Dennis Glazener on November 29, 2020, 09:30:36 PM: Quote from: smart dog on November 29, 2020, 08:30:37 PM
Hi,
Here is an original rod from a 1760s English fowler.
(https://i.ibb.co/SVxTsqH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6DZhn6G)

dave

Dave does the work screw on or is it brazed on?
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: smart dog on November 30, 2020, 01:37:30 AM: Hi Dennis,
I don't know. The ferrules were formed from sheet iron and I believe soldered, not brazed. I don't think the strength of brazing was necessary. The seam down the ferrule is so tight and clean and only a very little bit of solder still shows. I am not sure how the worms were attached but I have an idea they were coarse threaded like a wood screw, screwed into the ferrule and then soldered. They do not appear to be removable.

dave
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Dennis Glazener on November 30, 2020, 02:02:19 AM: Quote from: smart dog on November 30, 2020, 01:37:30 AM
Hi Dennis,
I don't know. The ferrules were formed from sheet iron and I believe soldered, not brazed. I don't think the strength of brazing was necessary. The seam down the ferrule is so tight and clean and only a very little bit of solder still shows. I am not sure how the worms were attached but I have an idea they were coarse threaded like a wood screw, screwed into the ferrule and then soldered. They do not appear to be removable.

dave

That's what I was wondering, if they were fixed or removable/changeable. Was trying to figure out if they might have changed the worm to some type of flat "tamper" for seating wads/cards. I made my fowler using interchangeable tips, figured they were not period correct but they work well.

Thanks
Dennis
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Feltwad on November 30, 2020, 01:12:51 PM: Enclosed are a couple of images off shotgun ramrods in different types of hardwood showing the brass tip and the opposite end the worm
Feltwad
(https://i.ibb.co/9YDv7Rn/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NYv3Mwx)

(https://i.ibb.co/zxPtWbR/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9gydm2T)
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Niall on November 30, 2020, 05:40:56 PM: Quote from: smart dog on November 30, 2020, 01:37:30 AM
Hi Dennis,
I don't know. The ferrules were formed from sheet iron and I believe soldered, not brazed. I don't think the strength of brazing was necessary. The seam down the ferrule is so tight and clean and only a very little bit of solder still shows.

dave

These look to be brazed,from a pair of holster pistols;

(https://i.ibb.co/bzkssNx/P1040875.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ChfbbVq)

Regards,

Niall
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: smart dog on November 30, 2020, 06:28:52 PM: Hi Niall,
Nice photos and it certainly looks like brazing. On my two fowler rods the seam is so neat and tight almost no solder or brazing shows and you have to look hard for the seam. What bonding alloy does show is gray in color. Perhaps they used both brazing and soldering depending on the maker.

dave
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Niall on November 30, 2020, 07:05:12 PM: Dave,

Possibly,...... but why solder when you have the skill to braze.....also,I don't know what soldering alloys they had back in the day or what soldering options they had or used.It would make an interesting topic for discussion if some folks had the relevant knowledge.

Niall
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: WKevinD on December 02, 2020, 02:28:09 PM: (https://i.ibb.co/zHs8fGb/Tips.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6JYvsgb)
These are some of the tips I use on my ramrods, 5/16 x 2 1/4" with 10-32 threads.
I tried rolling and brazing but that's beyond my skill set if I want them usable.
Kevin
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Howard on December 03, 2020, 04:31:24 AM: (https://i.ibb.co/CtZc0DH/DSCN3444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ZxMsLW)

(https://i.ibb.co/WW6hwNk/DSCN3445.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3y73q5p)

(https://i.ibb.co/QkP9jD2/DSCN3446.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SctN7fh)
Here are a few of my old rammers & tips from old original rods.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Rifleman1776 on December 03, 2020, 07:37:11 PM: Photos posted show and excellent representation of rods that might have come with new rifles. But, in the forests and mountains stuff often got broken and had to be replaced. I have seen in museums many 'wiping' sticks, obviously whittled, that had tulip ends. No brass. Sometimes the other end had a metal sleeve to accept a corkscrew tip that could be used for cleaning.
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: smart dog on December 03, 2020, 08:24:43 PM: Niall,
According to William Cleator's descriptions of British gun making during the 18th century, they had both hard and soft solder. He describes hard solder as needing heat sufficient to damage barrels, whereas soft solder did not require that heat and was used by gun makers to attach barrel loops.

dave
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Avlrc on December 04, 2020, 12:52:28 AM: Quote from: Howard on December 03, 2020, 04:31:24 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/CtZc0DH/DSCN3444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ZxMsLW)

(https://i.ibb.co/WW6hwNk/DSCN3445.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3y73q5p)

(https://i.ibb.co/QkP9jD2/DSCN3446.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SctN7fh)
Here are a few of my old rammers & tips from old original rods.

So now I know where all the ramrods went that are missing from antique longrifles I have. LOL
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Niall on December 04, 2020, 02:12:08 PM: Dave.

I'm familiar with soft solder on antique firearms,as in under-ribs and associated ramrod pipes on half stocked fowlers and rifles.Plus d/b tubes were also joined with rib and soft solder.

My understanding is that brazing and hard soldering are pretty much the same thing. I suppose due consideration was given to the amount of heat required and its effects on the work...Horses for courses.

Niall
Title: Re: Old ramrods
Post by: Pukka Bundook on December 04, 2020, 05:23:04 PM: Good to hear from you, Niall. Long time no talk!

I recall reading that when Continental barrels were jointed with silver solder or brazing, sometimes they needed a fine boring afterwards, as the barrels would scale on occasion.
Indeed, horses for courses!