AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: bob in the woods on August 05, 2008, 04:22:58 PM
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My Chamber's Colonial lock needs to have the frizzen made a little harder. [ I probably softened it a bit when I fire blued it } It works, but not as well as my other one, and the flint digs in and doesn't spark more than a few shots without knapping. I tried to look up the topic in the arcives but couldn't find it.
Do these frizzens use water or oil in the hardening? Can I temper it back by submerging the fizzen striking portion in molten lead? I think I remember something about water causing surface fractures, so thought I'd better ask first.
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Bob, I'm sure that Jim has stated to never quench his frizzens in water. I really like the room temp water with 1/4" of oil on top as perscribed by Jerry though. Molten lead, while great for springs IMO is too hot for a frizzen (600 some odd degrees). I temper mine in a soup can filled with sand and placed in the kitchen oven at, IIRC 475. The sand is just a medium from which I can get an accurate temp reading with a candy thermometer. It also holds the temp on the frizzen when the oven is opened to take a temp reading. Once the oven comes up to temp, I stick the thermometer in the sand and take a reading. Oven thermostates are not necessarily accurate so Start with the oven set at 450, when the temp levels out, if it's under the target temp then turn the oven up. I check the temp every 15 min. Once the temp levels out at the target temp, let it bake for an hour (I contiue to check the temp during this time). It's been awhile so I may not recall the target temp correctly but I'm sure that Jerry or Stan or Jim or someone will confirm or correct.
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Temper between 350* and 450* depending on the amount of spark and how quickly you want the frizzen to wear, and temper the tail of the frizzen to 600* or a nice deep blue.
Hope this helps.
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Like it was stated, using a lead bath for a spring seems to work quite well. However for a frizzen it's way too hot. According to the Siler kits, the tempering temperature is 375 degrees for 1 hour in the center of the oven with the steel that Bud Siler was using. If in doubt, call Jim Chambers up and ask him what he recommends. As for a quenching medium, transmission fluid has been recommended after the part reaches 1575 degrees, personally I use the magnet technique. When steel reaches critical temperature it loses it's magnetic properties, and that's the temperature you want to quench at for hardening.
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Not really. These frizzens are 1095. The quench temp needs to be about 50 to 75° above non-magnetic. Red-orange in dim light, and it needs a very thin oil. ATF will do, but heat the oil to 130°. Then quench and immediately swirl it around. Temper at 375°.
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There is such a thing as a fast quenching oil, which works well with 1095 steel. I think McMaster-Carr has some in gallon bottles.
Andy
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1095 is WATER hardening steel NOT oil hardening. Quench in tepid water (115%) with salt added to buffer the quench. Temper at 375 degrees for at least 30 minutes. Stan
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1095 is WATER hardening steel NOT oil hardening. Quench in tepid water (115%) with salt added to buffer the quench. Temper at 375 degrees for at least 30 minutes. Stan
Stan sometimes yes sometimes no it depends on the item and the usage......
http://www.key-to-steel.com/default.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&NM=90
"Higher-carbon steels such as 1070 to 1095 are especially suitable for springs where resistance to fatigue and permanent set are required. They are also used in the nearly fully hardened condition (Rockwell C 55 and higher) for applications where abrasion resistance is the primary requirement, as for agricultural tillage tools such as plowshares, and knives for cutting hay or grain.
Most of the parts made from steels in this group are hardened by conventional quenching. However, special technique is necessary sometimes. Both oil and water quenching are used - water, for heavy sections of the lower-carbon steels and for cutting edges and oil, for general use. Austempering and martempering are often successfully applied; the principal advantages from such treatments are considerably reduced distortion, elimination of breakage, in many instances, and greater toughness at high hardness."
I don't know of any custom knife smith that uses 1095 who brine (water plus salt) quenches it - and I know a bunch - including some of the best (and highest paid) and some who are professional metallurgists. A proper warmed oil quench works great with much less chance of embrittlement and the dreaded ping...so why take the chance when you don't have to and will get as good or better product?
The decision by the professional metallurgists whether a steel is oil or water quench is based on a 1" cross section. Thinner cross sections such as a frizzen or knife blade generally work best with an oil quench...........
And yes Jim Chambers said in a similar post on the old board just before it shut down that he uses an oil quench for his frizzens and recommends it as the best - he tried using a water quench and was completely disappointed, every frizzen he quenched in water was a failure .........
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Hi guys
Been lurking around the site for quite a while. This i a subject that I was unsure of. Now that i have read the thread, I'm still confused. Can the frizzen be hardened in the oven or does it have to be heated to a greater temp and then oil quenched? Great site. I'v learned much. I have not attemped a build as yet. This winter is the plan. so many choices.
Bob
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Thankyou for all the replies. I have been using warmed canola oil for quenching in the past, but Heard of others using water. Peter Alexander mentions water for the Siler frizzens, and I believe he also uses
Kasenit on them. I think that , just to be on the safe side, I'll warm my oil, and use the oven at 375 F
for this one, and see how it turns out. Thanks again.
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Hi guys
Been lurking around the site for quite a while. This i a subject that I was unsure of. Now that i have read the thread, I'm still confused. Can the frizzen be hardened in the oven or does it have to be heated to a greater temp and then oil quenched? Great site. I'v learned much. I have not attemped a build as yet. This winter is the plan. so many choices.
Bob
[/quote) You have to bring the frizzen up to about 1600 degrees then quickly quench it to freeze its grain structure first. The kitchen oven will not get that hot, so you have to use a torch or some sort of forge for that. then you'll have to temper the frizzen because the frizzen is so hard that it can be cracked if thrown on the concrete floor. I was buffing one prior to tempering it and the buffer got a grab of it and threw it into a sheetrock wall and it cracked. So tempering can be done in the oven. some people will lay it on a piece of steel and heat the steel with a torch to prevent hot spots, for that it has to be a straw color, but the frizzen should reach 375 degrees for an hour.
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George, you are contradicting yourself. Iron/steel, goes non-magnetic at about 1420°, the Curie point, give or take a bit, depending on one's source of info. Excessive grain growth will begin with 1095 when you get much over 1525°. 1600°, would be an unnecessary heat for it, and grain growth could become a problem. Large grain= less strength=possible breakage with use. 1500°, to 1525°, is the practical heat range for 1095, with 1500° being a bit less likely to develop any appreciable increase in grain size. A short soak at this temp will better disperse the extra carbon in this steel, but for a frizzen, probably not necessary.
If a kitchen range is used for the temper, use an oven thermometer! Common ranges are a 99% guaranteed to be incorrect in their heat setting. Usually higher than the setting.
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My Chamber's Colonial lock needs to have the frizzen made a little harder. [ I probably softened it a bit when I fire blued it } It works, but not as well as my other one, and the flint digs in and doesn't spark more than a few shots without knapping. I tried to look up the topic in the arcives but couldn't find it.
Do these frizzens use water or oil in the hardening? Can I temper it back by submerging the fizzen striking portion in molten lead? I think I remember something about water causing surface fractures, so thought I'd better ask first.
Heat to a nice red with some casenite on the face and the foot/hinge hole to prevent carbon loss.
Quench in light oil, like ATF or ATF and Marvels Mystery oil about 50-50. Might be best to warm it slightly by quenching a scrap first.
Then you can polish and heat it to 375 or so in the oven to draw it back slightly
If you heat sink the face of the frizzen or coat with some heat stop paste the foot and pan can be heated to a dark tan but if you go too far the foot may be too soft. If you heat the face too far you will be back to having a too soft face again. Best to heat at the pan over area toward the hinge and let the heat run into the foot. Frizzens cannot be heat blued, blue is a spring temper color and is too soft for a frizzen face.
Dan
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I thought I understood the process. I guess I don't. Evidently there's more to it than I know. Thanks...Geo.
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George, you are contradicting yourself. Iron/steel, goes non-magnetic at about 1420°, the Curie point, give or take a bit, depending on one's source of info. Excessive grain growth will begin with 1095 when you get much over 1525°. 1600°, would be an unnecessary heat for it, and grain growth could become a problem. Large grain= less strength=possible breakage with use. 1500°, to 1525°, is the practical heat range for 1095, with 1500° being a bit less likely to develop any appreciable increase in grain size. A short soak at this temp will better disperse the extra carbon in this steel, but for a frizzen, probably not necessary.
If a kitchen range is used for the temper, use an oven thermometer! Common ranges are a 99% guaranteed to be incorrect in their heat setting. Usually higher than the setting.
Heat to a nice red with some casenite on the face and the foot/hinge hole to prevent carbon loss.
Quench in light oil, like ATF or ATF and Marvels Mystery oil about 50-50. Might be best to warm it slightly by quenching a scrap first.
Then you can polish and heat it to 375 or so in the oven to draw it back slightly
If you heat sink the face of the frizzen or coat with some heat stop paste the foot and pan can be heated to a dark tan but if you go too far the foot may be too soft. If you heat the face too far you will be back to having a too soft face again. Best to heat at the pan over area toward the hinge and let the heat run into the foot. Frizzens cannot be heat blued, blue is a spring temper color and is too soft for a frizzen face.
Dan
Wick is right on, but not everyone has the equipment to accurately heat a part to 1525 degrees. Since that is not always possible the alternative is to heat the part as described by Dan, and quench in ATF heated to about 130 degrees. Tempering in a kitchen oven is best done by using two good oven thermometers and taking the average of the two temps to accurately judge the real temp of the oven.
Ovens are notoriously inaccurately, as are oven thermometers, so it's best to use two thermometers so's your part comes out right.
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So if I understand this correctly. If I don't have the equipment to heat to 1525 deg I can heat it till it turns red then quench in ATF heated to 130 deg, then go through the process of drawing back in the oven. Will a propane torch be OK or will that not be hot enough. If not and oxy/acetylene is not avail, then what?
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I doubt that a propane torch will heat a frizzen to hardening temp. I have heard of some folks using two propane torches, but oxy/acetylene or a small forge is your best bet. Heat the part in dull light until a magnet won't stick. That will be about 1425-1450 degrees. Be aware of the color as the magnet refuses to stick, because once the magnet no longer sticks, it will not stick until the part is cooled considerably. So, maintain the color, or even a slightly brighter red, to red orange and quench in ATF.
Another, more accurate method is using Brownells "Templiaq" to determine the required temp, Quench, and temper.
Bob Roller recommends tempering the foot to a full blue, but no more, as the colors run up to the bottom edge of the face of the frizzen.
IMHO, Dan's method of heating the pan cover and allowing the colors to run might be a better way. Gotta heat slowly, and watch the colors closely.
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Red-orange should about do it. That is pretty much the color I see in the steel at 1500°, when I open the door on my oven. JD has a very good point, using two oven thermometers is a very good suggestion, because they will vary a tad also. Pre-heat your oven, and get the temp set before you harden the frizzen. As soon as you can handle it bare handed, put it in for an hour. 375° is Jim Chambers recommended temper heat, and ideal for the purpose of this steel.
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You will never get the proper glass hardness by quenching 1095 steel in oil, 1095 was designed to quench in water. You can use all of the different types of oil you want and the frizzen will never attain the proper hardness. It just doesnt work that way, and we are talking about frizzens.
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It will be very difficult if not imposable to heat a frizzen to proper harding temperature with a single propane torch. You could get some fire bricks and stack them to create a small forge (leave openings in the bricks so your torches do not "flame out") and use two propane torches to supply the required heat to bring that frizzen up to "critical heat" for harding the steel you are using. Let the part soak in the heat for about 15 min (depending on size) then quench frizzen in your "magic bath potion" (you will need enough of the "bath" to cool the part down quickly - swirl part constantly), when you can handle the part without it feeling hot, go directly into the oven set for your tempering cycle (about 1 hour) - don't wait too long between the hardening cycle and the tempering cycle or you will have hidden stress cracks that will lead to frizzen failure :'(.
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Any metalurgist will tell you that keeping carbon steel at critical tempature causes a loss of carbon from the steel. Heat the piece to critical temp as quickly as possible (so that the color of the piece has no dark spots and is a uniform color) & quench asap.
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Stan, I agree with what you are saying but it is not that simple - The heat source, part geometry, how you are applying the heat, the oven or lack of, the steel alloy, and other factors all contribute to a successful harden part. I am attaching some info that may be of help to others on their quest to achieve the "Holy Grail" of hardening. As Bud Siler told me a long time ago when I used an electric heat treating oven to harden a lock kit of his using his heat treating temperatures set forth on the direction sheet for his lock kits in the 70's (the parts burnt up & he did not want to hear that I followed his directions to the letter)- I quote Bud " Every one I know uses a torch or a coal forge and heats by eye - I just put those numbers there as a guide - nobody uses them". --- :o :o
The following is info for all who need more dietary fiber -- this will put you to sleep
Dmitri Kopeliovich, Academic degree:
Ph.D. in Materials Engineering, 1991
Work experience:
R&D positions in Material Engineering (researcher, project manager, R&D Manager)
Hardening
Hardening is a heat treatment process involving heating a steel above the phase transformation temperature (upper critical temperature), followed by soaking and then rapid cooling (quenching).
When steel is heated above the upper critical temperature, its structure becomes entirely austenitic.
Then the article is cooled at a rate exceeding the critical rate value.
Critical cooling rate is a function of the chemical composition and the grain size of austenite.
If the critical cooling rate is not achieved, a mixture of ferrite and cementite forms.
Depending on the cooling rate the following ferrite-cementite structures may form:
pertlite – ferrite-cementite structure, forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at slow cooling in annealing treatment;
sorbite- ferrite-cementite perlite-like structure with finer (than in perlite) grain structure, forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at relatively high cooling rate (cooling in air);
trostite–fine ferrite-cementite perlite-like structure forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at high (but lower than critical) cooling rate (cooling in oil);
bainite– very fine ferrite-cementite mixture, forming in a mechanism similar to the mechanism of martensite transformation, as a result of decomposition of austenite at high (but lower than critical) cooling rate (cooling in a quenching medium);
Cooling in water usually provides cooling rate higher than the critical value.
The structure forming as a result of quenching in water is called martensite (supersaturated solid solution of carbon in α-iron). Martensite is hard and brittle phase, having hardness varying between 500 HB to 710 HB depending on the carbon content.
The temperature interval at which the austenite-martensite transformation occurs is about 480°F - 400°F (250°C - 200°C).
Hardening temperature is the temperature to which a steel is heated before quenching.
If the hardening temperature of a hypoeutectoid steel is at least 100°F (55°C) above the upper critical temperature, quenching will result in complete austenite-martensite transformation (full hardening).
If the hypoeutectoid steel is heated to a temperature, lying between the upper critical temperature (A3) and the lower critical temperature (A1), quenching will result in formation of martensite with some amount of ferrite (partial hardening). This structure is softer than full-hard martensite structure.
In the case of hypereutectoid steel partial hardening results in formation of a mixture of martensite and cementite, which is harder than full-hard martensite structure.
Hardenability is the property of steel indicating the depth to which hardening effect penetrates. Hardenability depends on the chemical composition of the steel, hardening temperature, dimensions and shape of the article and other factors.
Hardenability is determined by the Jominy test, in which a steel bar of 1 inch in diameter and 4 inch long is heated above the upper critical point and then one end of the bar is quenched by water jet. Results of the hardness measurements conducted along the bar after quenching indicate the hardenability of the steel.
Isothermal hardening is a hardening method involving quenching in a medium (oil or molten salt) to minimize the part cracking and distortion.
There are two principal isothermal methods:
Martempering is the isothermal hardening method, in which a part is quenched in a quenching medium (oil or molten salt) and is left in it reaching uniform temperature distribution. The part is removed from the quenching medium before the bainite formation.
Austempering is the isothermal hardening method, in which a part is quenched in a quenching medium (oil or molten salt) and is left in it reaching uniform temperature distribution. The part is removed from the quenching medium after the complete bainite formation.
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P.W., Stan, we are probably just confusing $#*! out of poor Bob. BOB, call Jim Chambers and get the instructions from him. He obviously knows how to treat his own parts. Chambers locks spark wonderfully.
P.W., Stan, yes, 1095 is considered a water hardening steel, however oil is recommended for small, and or thin sections. Parks 50 oil will quench 1095 successfully. for 1095 to reach full hardness, you have a one second window to drop the temp from 1500°, to under 900°. If one is to use water, brine is less risky. It cools faster, but the salt allows a more even cooling, which reduces the risk of cracking. As for a soak. All steel benefits from soaking, however it needs to be a steady, and even heat. 15 minutes for 1095 is a little over kill, and it will decarb, if the steel has no protection. Quenching as soon as the steel reaches critical is a very poor practice. This is a notion passed down from smith, to smith, with no factual bearing. The transformation to austenite has only begun at this temp. As stated the temp needs to be 50°, to 75° higher, with a soak. The soak time depends on the steel composition. 5 minutes is good for 1095, maybe 10 minutes for thicker pieces, but I would use decarb protection for more than 5. Steels, such as 01, 5160, 6150, have a high amount of chrome and other alloys, and require a longer soak, or they will not reach full solution, and they will not reach their full potential. Hardness is not the goal in a good quench. A full, and even hardness is what is desired, and a file test will not tell you this. Files are like sheep, they lie. Stan, if you cannot get 1095 glass hard quenching in oil, then you are using the wrong oil, or some other piece of your method is wrong. It is easy to get 1095 hard in oil, the problem is, it often cools to a pearlite/martensite structure, rather than all martensite, because it did not cool fast enough. If you are using a water quench with no problems, then all is well, but if you are quenching as soon as you reach non-magnetic, then your results are probably no better than an ATF, or canola oil quench in which the steel was at proper quench temp.
All in all, the simple hardening that Jim Chambers recommends is very sufficient for a frizzen. They spark very well, and they last. What more can one ask for? Is it the optimal HT for 1095? No, but it works, and it works well, and the method is simple enough for the average home craftsman to handle, with minimal risk of cracking the frizzen, which would not be good for business, if it happened too often.
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Depending on the cooling rate the following ferrite-cementite structures may form:
pertlite – ferrite-cementite structure, forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at slow cooling in annealing treatment;
sorbite- ferrite-cementite perlite-like structure with finer (than in perlite) grain structure, forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at relatively high cooling rate (cooling in air);
trostite–fine ferrite-cementite perlite-like structure forming as a result of decomposition of austenite at high (but lower than critical) cooling rate (cooling in oil);
bainite– very fine ferrite-cementite mixture, forming in a mechanism similar to the mechanism of martensite transformation, as a result of decomposition of austenite at high (but lower than critical) cooling rate (cooling in a quenching medium);
Cooling in water usually provides cooling rate higher than the critical value.
The structure forming as a result of quenching in water is called martensite (supersaturated solid solution of carbon in α-iron). Martensite is hard and brittle phase, having hardness varying between 500 HB to 710 HB depending on the carbon content.
So, if you take a can of Guiness bring it to a boil then quench it, do you get Budlite, Millerlite or Coorslite?? ;D.
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Well, I thought that this was a simple enough procedure, and was actually hesitating to ask the question. ;D Now i am certainly glad I asked...not so simple after all! Anything I can't get hot enough with 2 propane torches, I simply put in my wood stove; leave the door open, pack coals around it and then use a small bellows until I get the colour I want. This has worked well for me in the past. It is how I do my springs. Maybe Jim will spot this, and add his instructions for hardening . I'd actually prefer to use a torch to finish off the process rather than an oven at 375 deg. Dan's method of heating the foot to blue seems workable. If this is so complicated, how ever did the old timers manage?
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They used simple iron, and case hardened it.
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I'm just sayin.......here's the method I use to harden a frizzen: First, I use an oxy-acetylene torch as a heat source, and I adjust it to burn a carbon flame. I hold the frizzen with a piece of welding rod through the screw hole and heat only the face of the frizzen, not the foot. I heat the part to a bright cherry red/orange color watching the surface until I see a wet or waxy appearance on the metal surface. I hold it at that temp for a couple of minutes. Then, I quickly immerse the frizzen in a special quenching oil purchased from a commercial heat treating supplier, moving it around to quickly cool the part until it is cool enough to hold in hand. I clean off the oil and temper in an oven at 375 degees F. for one hour. That is the method I and all of my assemblers use in hardening the frizzens on our assembled locks. That works for us. I'm not a metalurgist, have had no training, have not read any manuals, I just know what works for me to make a frizzen spark.
If you need to harden one of Stan's frizzens, by all means, follow his directions and dunk the part in water.
If you need to reharden a frizzen on a lock I assembled, send it back to me and let me do it. If you're determined to do it yourself, please use the method I described above. Or, use your own method, and I'll be glad to sell you a new frizzen if yours fails.
I'm just sayin................
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Jim, if I send it back to you, think about all the fun I'd be missing! Besides..I like buying stuff from you.
I'll be ordering a replacement today, just in case....not that I'll need it ;D
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Hi Jim! I see that you are a "Fox & Friends" fan!! Stan
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I did not intend to ruffle any feathers ???. I use different hardening techniques for different situations with the steel I am using and the job at hand. As all can see each person has his own special technique but the standards are the same-- heat, quench, & anneal, if it is not as hard as you like, try some other method.
I have found that each batch of steel will react slightly different than the last. All that have posted info are smart people and have been doing it for a long time. It is like asking a man what kind of woman do you like -- they all have the same "equipment" it's just how they use it :D, so my answer is -- all of them will work, you don't like one try another! "Piece" be to all ;)!
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This is one way to make a small forge from fire brick. Using just a propane tourch it will heat a frizzen to temp with out a problem. I made this micro forge from two fire bricks that I picked up from a ceramic arts supply in Portland OR. called Georgies. I think they cost me 12.00 each. I posted on the old site this over a year ago. Here are some pic's of it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv648%2FDaveB44%2FDSCN3026.jpg&hash=6e146e9003b1df6ee9df1f2e337eea43a3b0af72)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv648%2FDaveB44%2FDSCN3025.jpg&hash=a08965b4b7e8b883c2786850efe39d16e6fccfa1)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv648%2FDaveB44%2FDSCN3027.jpg&hash=1290d2e4381e4e3212dcb5107b3f9d7c1817c04f)
it will get your metal hot enough to burn it so you cant just walk away from it or you will have a small lump iron instead of a steel frizzen.
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Dave B, now ain't that the "coolest" thing you ever did see :P. Great job on the cavity carving ;). Here's a bit of fire brick info - I know of two types - one being hard & heavy as a brick ::), and one being softer & lighter which you can cut into different shapes with little difficulty :-X. So Dave B with this method you can create almost any shape of forge for the part you want to heat up as long as it is within the boundaries of the bricks 8) 8).
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I ordered the new frizzen casting from Jim yesterday. Having a spare is usually a sure fire guarantee that I won't need it !
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This is the soft brick and one must be gentile with it or you will have multiple bits.
I am going to make a frame work for mine to allow for a clamshell opening to remove larger parts
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A very handy poor man's torch for a builder is a MAPP gas torch. I just hardened a frizzen with mine and brought it up to the point where the magnet would not pull on it very quickly. It will handle small parts pretty quick, like that and even do a job of brazing on small projects as well as handling some of the high temp silver solders. Haven't had a chance to test the frizzen just yet but if it does not work it will likely be becasue of the tempering. Its an L&R frizzen using a Chambers formula.
DP
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Why do it the hard way, do it the old way. Ephram told you how to do it a while back here. We did it to my frizzen 2 weeks ago , I shot the gun today in a match ,approx 30 shots ,it was great.It's the only way we do it. Here it is again
Take the frizzen put it in a Tin can, with a Bone [with marrow in it] & leather scraps. Fold over top. Place in a hard wood fire.Once it turns dull red , Time it for 20 min. Take out place in a bucket of water , Swirl it around till cool. it' done , but dont eat it all at once
All jokeing aside, this is how the old timers did it . My family were old time gun builders you may have seen my great great uncle Charlie Blevins in Fox Fire # 5
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Your method depends upon the steel. A Siler frizzen and many of the others is best done the way they recommend. There are many different types of alloys that harden differently, such that one needs to know the steel. As to hardening,you typically, as stated you bring it up to about 1550 or the nonmagnetic state in either water or oils. The water should be heated, I learned in my training to about 150 degrees, or you can crack the steel. Oils have been recommended and I found the Transmission oil to work well. Some steels are meant to be air hardenend. As to tempering or drawing out the hardness, as stated a kitchen oven used with a thermometer to get the correct temperature works well. There are other methods but for home methods that works. You have to match the technique to the steel for proper results. There is no "best way"
DP
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I just did "rearc" on a L&R mainspring and it would not harden in oil, tried twice. Did OK in somewhat warm water with some salt in it.
Dan
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For every rule there is an exception isn't there. Most oil hardened steel will harden in water, but can crack. I wonder if the carbon level of the spring wasn't marginal, or what do they use for steel? I just did the L&R frizzen by quenching in oil and it turned out very hard, but is it spring steel as used in the springs. Anytime you see 10XX you know you are working with iron and carbon turned into steel and can use pretty conventional techniques. Its when you see number other than 10 in front that you need to know how to deal with it.
DP
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I don't know about L&R, but Chambers uses 6150 for mainsprings. 6150 is a high chrome shock resistant steel and requires a temp, and soak at 1625°, to 1650°, with an oil quench in order to harden properly. If L&R is using the same steel, you may not have gotten it hot enough. If you quenched when it went non-magnetic you may have been about 211° shy of what you needed. Call L&R and ask what steel it is.
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I would like to take the time to thank All who contribute to the forum. You bring with you years of knowledge and skills and in such varied trades. Some are plumbers, lawyers doctors and even dentists, Some are machinists, engineers, and like myself a carpenter. A good portion of us are retired, while some are young enough to still seeking to further their formal education, or are serving in the military. Sometimes people respond to questions and answer like everybody has their basic knowledge. It's great and greatly appreciated, but sometimes we all don't have the in depth background that some of you do. What I'm trying to say is try to explain it so we all can understand it. I personally am not that knowledgeable in metalurgy, actually I know very little about it. Some don't understand what 10xx means...I think it means steel with 10% carbon content. I don't know what the xx is. I do know that 6150 is another type steel, but that's all I know. Maybe with a technical answer we could either simplify the answer or explain what is that really. I hope this explains it, and not peed on anybodies boot. Thanks....Geo.
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I would like to take the time to thank All who contribute to the forum. You bring with you years of knowledge and skills and in such varied trades. Some are plumbers, lawyers doctors and even dentists, Some are machinists, engineers, and like myself a carpenter. A good portion of us are retired, while some are young enough to still seeking to further their formal education, or are serving in the military. Sometimes people respond to questions and answer like everybody has their basic knowledge. It's great and greatly appreciated, but sometimes we all don't have the in depth background that some of you do. What I'm trying to say is try to explain it so we all can understand it. I personally am not that knowledgeable in metalurgy, actually I know very little about it. Some don't understand what 10xx means...I think it means steel with 10% carbon content. I don't know what the xx is. I do know that 6150 is another type steel, but that's all I know. Maybe with a technical answer we could either simplify the answer or explain what is that really. I hope this explains it, and not peed on anybodies boot. Thanks....Geo.[/sub]
Actually the 10XX means that the steel is a simple carbon iron combination. The XX such as 1095 means a simple carbon combination with 95 points of carbon. The 61 in the 6150 means that the base steel has an alloy in it with 50 points carbon. A point of carbon is .01 percent. My formal training was that of an industrial arts teacher and goes back a ways as I have not taught for many years. Technology has advanced beyond some of my training. Jerry explained to me that modern investment casting for springs is done at 15,000 lbs pressure which is supposed to make them as tough as a forged spring. It may be as forging metal can be as much an art as a science. (I still think I would prefer a forged spring, but the cost of the locks would be prohibitive)
Basically carbon content permits hardening. Spring steel can start at about 1065 if I remember correctly, and ends up I would think at the 1095. There is two parts to hardening steel so that it works. The first is the heating and quenching (hardening) and the second is the drawing with heat (tempering) Carbon also makes steel brittle as some files are above 100 points of carbon. Wrought iron has no carbon, is very soft and hardly rusts, which is why some of the old wrought iron nails are still around today. Carbon steel rusts. I am amused at movies showing old time shiny knives as one indication of a good knife in the days of simple iron carbon IE (10XX) steel was that grey appearance of oxidation. Really, if you buy a Siler lock kit from Chambers, follow his instructions, you don't need to know all this. The Siler kits have been around I think around 40 years if not longer and have been good enough so that major changes have not been deemed to be beneficial. I use other locks for style, not quality.
DP
DP
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For the benefit of George F, there is a book 2500 pages long called Machinery's Handbook. You can occasionally find it in garage sales as well as in a short form of a few hundred pages. It has a second on metal alloys and properties, one of these being a description of the different steel designations and what the numbers refer to. Not exactly light bedside reading, but is quite useful if you want to know some obscure detail about metal working
cheers Doug
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I want to thank you two for the lesson, brief was good, for too deep will only confuse me. Thanks for the info for the book, but I think I will pass at this time. Don't laugh but one of the reasons I didn't go to college was that I am a poor reader, actually I dislike it immensely. The other was the draft was on my butt. I do basically know the process for hardening and tempering the Siler parts and haven't had a problem with the metal they use. I appreciate the responses and the quick lesson, thanks....Geo.