AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: pilot on February 06, 2021, 03:21:53 AM
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Does anyone know anything about these? I'll try to get some pictures posted of it. I think it is 12 gauge. The top rib is marked "London Fine Twist". It has W. Richards on the locks.
(https://i.ibb.co/C59MRfF/shotgun4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sv168Zr)
(https://i.ibb.co/h10KHHw/shotgun2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXqNttV)
google photos io 2017 (https://imgbb.com/)
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From what I can see, I think it may prove to be Belgian.
Need a few more photos though, Pilot.
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Belgian made, imported in the billions...percussion and breechloader. Sold out of hardware stores including Sears Roebuck. Most are pretty well made and are good shooters. Condition is everything. Make sure the barrels are not loose. If you are not sure have someone who understands black powder guns take a look at it before shooting! Notice I said black powder....most modern gunsmjths know very little to nothing about black powder guns. Wormey
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Yes, appears to be Belgian. I got into it fairly cheap thinking it was only a shooter. The barrels are pretty cruddy inside, but should clean up okay. I'll try to do that today. If it ends up being something I can hunt with I'll be happy.
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Yes, appears to be Belgian.
W. Richards (not Westley Richards) was an English gunmaker. Check the proof marks to see if they are English or Belgian. People are too quick to label them.
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TOF,
Westley Richards was an English gumnaker. Lot of knock-offs used his name though.
The quality of the above says not a made by them.
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There are many W Richards reproduction guns throughout the world. A genuine gun will have W Richards (Gunmakers) Liverpool Ltd (or Preston/London etc) stamped on the rib between/above the barrel(s)."
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A dead giveaway that its origins are in Belgium would be if the barrels are brazed together rather than soldered.
Hungry Horse
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(https://i.ibb.co/MgnG2QQ/20210205-221228.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zms7nDD)
Here is the bottom of the barrels. I can't make out what the proof mark is, but it doesn't look like the British mark.
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I have a 12 GA W Richards that has been marketed here on ALR. They are a pretty substantial gun even though made for the masses. I don't know about others but mine is Belgian proofed.
Mark
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Is there any way to figure out how old this thing is?
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1850s plus or minus is my guess.
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I think the unreadable mark is B P for Birmingham Proof and obviously the 12 is the bore size. James Levy
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(https://i.ibb.co/MgnG2QQ/20210205-221228.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zms7nDD)
Here is the bottom of the barrels. I can't make out what the proof mark is, but it doesn't look like the British mark.
Those are Birmingham proofs from c. 1855-1875.
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Cool! Thank you. I couldn't figure out what it was. I knew the 12 was for the bore, but the rest was a mystery.
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Seth,
Can you attach photos of the proof marks that are like these?
My own books just show the normal 1813 to 1904 marks , and should also have the appropriate view mark.
Afraid I can not make out the marks in the photos in this thread.
One mark looks hazily like the Special Definitive Proof marks used between 1887 and 1925, but of course that can't be the case.
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I'll take some better pictures, too. BRB
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I have a Westley Richards double from the 1840s - heavily used and worn but mechanically sound. Years back I contacted the company in Great Britain and they were actually able to give me a ballpark figure on the age of the gun based on the marks and serial number. Here's a link to their website:
https://www.westleyrichards.com/new-guns/history/
There were lots of Belgian knock-offs but yours is clearly a British made gun. I'm not sure if there were British knock-offs of W. Richards shotguns as well but I'll leave that to the experts. Everything I see looks like it's a true Westley Richards. Today they still make super fine and $$$$ double guns but back in the 19th century they produced a wide variety of "grades" . What I love about mine is the quality and feel of the locks.
Cheers,
Joe
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Shopdog,
Yes many Birmingham knock-offs as well as Belgian.
Names sometimes spelled Close, but not touching! Mortimer had lots of also -rans...and Manton!
I recall looking at a gun supposedly by a British maker, and it was Horrendous!, and was sure it was a bottom of the barrel Belgian job, I would have bet my life on it, But, when I pulled the barrels it had Birmingham proofs.
Not saying the opening post gun is that bad, merely making the point that lesser and spurious stuff also came out of England.
Edited to say my Bro-in -Law had a Westley Richads I gave him. I should see if my sister can find it for photos... It was the real deal.
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Pretty interesting that there were British knockoffs of British guns - Some things never change! Your info got me to compare with the shotgun in the post. Instead of “W. Richards” my shotgun says “Westley Richards” - also has a serial number. The company was able to look it up and placed it first half of 1840’s - in typical British fashion their archivist apologized they couldnt get more details as the records were incomplete! I was amazed and happy just to get the response from them and to know the gun dated to the 1840’s.
Joe
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I have not found a serial number, but have found some interesting etching on the top rib.
(https://i.ibb.co/27MgkwH/20210209-102025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynkWQD7)
(https://i.ibb.co/kS7yHvp/20210209-102039.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FDrWxC9)
(https://i.ibb.co/bQSHrSc/20210209-102050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xXpmMpx)
(https://i.ibb.co/kxMr9jd/20210209-102409.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FKnf02P)
(https://i.ibb.co/5RmGq4c/20210209-101729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3C24tdh)
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The barrels are 36 inches long and the gun weighs 9 pounds, 15 ounces.
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Regardless of pedigree looks to be a fine serviceable shotgun. There’s something special about wingshooting with old doubles,
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I have not found a serial number, but have found some interesting etching on the top rib.
(https://i.ibb.co/27MgkwH/20210209-102025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynkWQD7)
That's not etching, it's inlay. You can see on the gun barrel of the figure and along the bottom of the design where some of it has been lost. Also, there are 2 different color barrel bands. Most likely the center one is gold and the outers are platinum. At today's prices, they probably exceed the value of the gun. This is not a cheap knock-off, if there even were any.
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I have to agree with Dave on this gun. It does appear to be the real McCoy.
The engraving London Fine Twist is much finer and shaped properly to be Belgium made.
It is virtually identical to my Field, London gun's marking.
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Not wanting to be a nay-sayer, but I would like to see close-ups of the locks both inside and out, If that can be arranged.
Plus, the lock mortises.
The one hammer I saw a little of above looked a bit iffy.
Daryl,
Belgian guns can be Very high end. Top of the line, but they do not Have to be.
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I tried to take the locks off yesterday, but the lock screw is tight and I was afraid of breaking it. I sprayed it with some blaster and will try again tomorrow,
The triggers match, but one looks like it has had a lot more exposure to hot primer gases. I can get close ups when I try to get the locks loose.
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Gents,
My sister found the old and very sad Westley Richards in the shed in a barrel.
The barrels will not fit into the stock, as the entry pipe is bent up into the bareel channel and catches the rib.
I took some photos of it all the same.
The right -hand hammer does not fit.
I have been thinking on whether to say what I think, or just sit on it; Maybe my age makes it harder to sit on things!
In the end I decided to say what I think.
The gun in the opening post was not made as it appears now, by Westley Richards.
Someone up the page said that this company made a lot of different quality guns.
I have not seen this. All were of good quality, even if extremely plain.
A gunmaker made his reputation by the quality of his work, not by producing great amounts of lesser quality.
The Birmingham trade and off-shore makers were well qualified to fulfill this latter role.
The escutcheon plates are not W-R. Neither are the multi-coloured bands at the breech.
This is not to disparage the gun in the O.P, but merely to state that to think this is the work of W-R is to misunderstand British 19th century gunmaking of better quality arms.
The key and goal, was Understatement, elegance, not "Gingerbread" as it was called. For cheaper guns, aimed at those who had maybe never owned a gun before, fancied up guns were undoubtedly made, plus this was still in style to some degree on the Continent.
I do feel sorry for saying this, as it looks like I am bashing the gun in this thread, and this is not what I want to do.
The proofs on the old wreck belonging to my sister, are the usual Birmingham proof and view marks.
For comparison, here are a few photos.
(https://i.ibb.co/DGHPT5z/20210209-191802.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WD4NjgG)
(https://i.ibb.co/4YT8FY4/20210209-191809.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qWsNDWm)
Above, the normal Birmingham proof and view marks, 1813 to 1904.
(https://i.ibb.co/LSJX2Vk/20210209-191857.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p2RB9Y0)
(https://i.ibb.co/2v1M1Yh/20210209-191933.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rtXtJQ)
Above,
the normal treatment of the gold lines at breech and type of bar for the lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/fHjPB8K/20210209-192019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L1V2bQq)
Hammer and lock.
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Sorry Pilot, our posts crossed.
Take time on the sidenail, so's you don't break anything!
Just a quick couple of pictures of these locks and mortise;
(https://i.ibb.co/1RFLpFC/20210209-192601.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ss82D8T)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZNHj6L/20210209-192643.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sv2YRVf)
Clean and competent, not fancy.
(https://i.ibb.co/0Y74C8D/20210209-192801.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwJc9sV)
(https://i.ibb.co/MP1G3kg/20210209-192820.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zP270Vm)
Same with inletting.
Apologies Pilot, These pictures are only meant to show the usual Style of work. Your gun appears thoroughly sound, and may be a genuine W-R, but has had some cosmetic alterations done on it if that's the case.
Very best wishes,
Richard.
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Your example of the proof mark is what I was looking for and did not see. As stated earlier, I can't make out the proof mark on this one.
When I said the triggers match, I meant hammers.
I would suspect the hammers on a field grade to match the shape of the better grade. Mine are far more robust, to put it kindly. The hammers on the gun you posted are far more elegant. It will be interesting to see what these locks look like inside.
Also, thank you for posting these pictures. It really helps having to have something to compare my gun to. I'm learning a lot here. This is my first foray into the world of percussion shotguns.
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The gun in the opening post was not made as it appears now, by Westley Richards.
No one ever said it was. You pulled this thread off track with your assertion. In fact, we were discussing the firm started by William Richards in 1801 in London. He was succeeded by his son William who came to Liverpool via Birmingham in 1842 and died in 1864. He was succeeded by his son Henry who carried on the business at various locations and died in 1895. Westley was the last of the line. Another son, William, had his own shop in Preston which was absorbed by the Liverpool firm upon his death in 1920.
It is perfectly obvious that the firm of W. Richards existed in a variety of locations during its lifetime. We cannot know what type and quality of guns were made by Wm. 1, Wm. 2, or Wm. 3, which could be proofed either London or Birmingham. Likewise, we cannot yet know if all the incarnations made their own barrels in house or sourced some of them from outside, including Belgium during times of high demand.
In the case of fake guns, if so many of these are purported to exist and show up here, why are none of them listed for sale in the catalogs of any of the Philadelphia import houses who supplied guns and gun parts to the USA; while other English makers such as Manton, Moore, et al are prominently listed for sale. This is all wide open speculation which can only be solved by further research by records which are probably only available in the UK.
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I seem to have ruffled your feathers, Dave.
My reason for posting, was because some appear to think the gun as it now stands is the "real deal', but from the earliest days of W-R, the guns were made in a workmanlike manner, and Finished to an understood level.
The gun in the O.P appears to fulfill the first requirement, but the fittings and such are not what we expect.
Re Westley Richards, He is spoken of by Peter Hawker in his book "Instructions" as "Quite the Star of Birmingham" and his London agent, "Uncle Bishop" also, as supplying Gentlemen with a "Good gun at short notice" (Page 5, "Instructions to Young Sportsmen").
When I said what I did in your quote, I was meaning that it had some additions that would not appear on a normal grade W-R.
I had no intentions of pulling this thread off track, so will say no more on this topic, and allow yourself and others get it back on track!
All the very best,
Richard.
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Real deal or not, I shot it today. No problems with it at all. The left barrel is choked. I have no idea how much. Both barrels pattern close to the same. I shot it with 80 grains of ffg and the same volume of no. 6 shot.
It is a heavy gun at 9 pounds 15 ounces and recoil was mild, but I want to turkey hunt with it this spring, so I will be bumping that up to 100 grains.
Over all, I'm happy. I bought this to shoot and it does.
I still haven't been able to take the locks off, but will try again after turkey season.
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My 12 bore shoots well with 75gr. 1F and 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2's. I have no reason it would not shoot well with 1 1/4oz. of #5's or #6's. & the 75gr. charge.
Pattern is what will kill your turkey, not velocity, which can have a detrimental effect of patterns, especially from the non-choked bore.
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I did some cyphering and weighing today with powder and shot. I have a better handle on loads now. The 80 grain volume of shot was 1 and an eighth oz. I think I'll stick with the 80 grains of ffg and up the shot to 90 grain volume. That will be right at1 1/4 ounce of shot. I'm going to shoot it again tomorrow and pattern that load.
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I finally got the locks off. I had sprayed the screw with penetrating oil a week or two ago and today it moved. Turns out the right sear spring is a replacement. It doesn't have a hole to run the screw through, so it rides on the screw instead.
(https://i.ibb.co/2Pm9hvD/20210331-131517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Z872Cg)
(https://i.ibb.co/k5YQvKk/20210331-131446.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LY4nHSb)
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The hammer spur snapped off of the left hammer. :'( Anyone know where I could get a replacement?
The broken off part showed rust on half the break like it has been cracked for a while.