AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dave B on March 22, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
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I ran across this over the week end. It could be original. But several things bother me. The use of a late lock. The over the top file job on the butt plate. I didn't get photos of the rod pipes but the only one it had used the same treatment as the return of the butt plate. It reminds me of reproduction pipe filing detail. The butt plate almost looks like a caricature of a mountain butt plate and the trigger guard rail is Wide compared to what I have seen to date. There was not attempt to put a muzzle cap on it at all just raw wood. I suspect it it a old restock made rifle using an original barrel and possibly some original parts what do you think?
(https://i.ibb.co/YtpZgrx/20210320-142441.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SKRrSLz)
(https://i.ibb.co/HB9fTjJ/20210320-142456.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djHw4Rh)
(https://i.ibb.co/CHbHwc0/20210320-142522.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL7LwGk)
(https://i.ibb.co/QXMNVZ7/20210320-142539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9GWT0Jm)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wkv9pzw/20210320-142600.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4MXq0S)
(https://i.ibb.co/BrkcmsY/20210320-142609.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnp6TkK)
(https://i.ibb.co/WzhkTnD/20210320-142620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jp1vhnx)
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From your pictures, it looks like a good TN rifle to me, just a "little different" in a couple of areas. The side facings seem to be made for an original shotgun type lock with a flat front end, and it almost looks like there is wood replaced in front of the current lock from a removed, slightly larger shotgun type original lock... or am I seeing ghosts in the front side facing just beyond the nose of current lock? Shelby Gallien
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Looks like a fine Tennessee mountain rifle, with great representation of how the mountain folk kept a gun going. I love this triggerguard. The buttplate looks quite Soddy Daisy to me.
Hungry Horse
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That sure looks 100% original to me and a very cool gun.
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8) 8)... I vote "original" from what I can see in photos,.. definitely Tennessee triggers,... Soddy area buttplate,.. lock area and cheek-rest are often seen in S.E Tennessee made rifles,... what is the engraving on the bow of the trigger-guard,...?? ... also give us some specs,... thanx for posting,... !!! ... CCF
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What do I know, but, personally, it just doesn't feel right to me. The butt piece, the cheek piece, the side plate and the lock screw all bother me.
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??? ???... Engraved on the bow of trigger-guard,... can anyone read this better than me,...? ... date is 1883,.... name I cannot figure out,.... maybe builder or owner,..... CCF
(https://i.ibb.co/C7DzQm0/20210320-142456-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LtH81Yp)
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I was suprized by the width of the butt plate. Its like 1 7/8" wide. The forward lock molding portion you see is the smootzen of years of being stowed in dark corners. The wood is fully intact. I will have to get back over that way to get more details its a 4 hr drive. The barrel was an inch or slighly over it, possibly 44" in legth and a bore of 54 cal to my eye. It was fun to stumble across it amungst the clutter. I have seen several originals that have a funky part to the breach plug tang transtion. It looks like they forged the breach plug then after the fact forge welded the tang to the small extension of the plug. This one shows what looks like a smear of not so good a weld and portions of the metal have flaked off.
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8) 8).. butt plate looks to be attached to toe-plate with two rivets,..?,.... # 93 label on cheek side appears to be an old museum collection reference number ...?
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The tag says not for sale, but make the man an offer anyway. At a minimum leave your contact info. Better yet, I'll give you mine to give him.
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Looks righteous to me. Probably last half to quarter of the 1800s and very well cared for over the years. All too often they were pretty well beat up and it may be that we have come to associate that with age somewhat. That is one you should not leave behind if it can be otherwise. Fine gun, thank you for bringing it in for us to see and admire.
Dick
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C.C.F. maybe we should go talk to the guy who has it ! Might just bring back a nice gun...
Don't know if ya don't try.
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Beautiful, but too bad it is a caplock! This gun deserves to be converted back to flint imho.
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It never was flintlock.
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I couldn't read the name on the butt plate, but I can read the "1883" below the name.
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??? ???... Engraved on the bow of trigger-guard,... can anyone read this better than me,...? ... date is 1883,.... name I cannot figure out,.... maybe builder or owner,..... CCF
(https://i.ibb.co/C7DzQm0/20210320-142456-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LtH81Yp)
Nice catch Cades Cove Fiddler! The date '1883' is very legible
The script engraving starts at far left with what appears to be a fancy scrolled 'J' (very light/shallow/worn) and it's hard to tell if it starts a full name or is just a single first initial, or the first of two (2) initials. The light playing across the surface creates a bit of glare and interferes with those efforts.
A little carbon dust from a pencil, a little less light, no flash and a focus point a little bit further away from the bow might reveal more detail and add more to this discussion.
If this is a restock, then it's a restock I wouldn't mind having to add to that other restock I've got.
BTW C.C.Fiddler, you have a PM sitt'n in your messages.
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??? ???... Collector,... send me another P.M. and refresh my old memory,... is it a previous PM,..?
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??? ???... Collector,... send me another P.M. and refresh my old memory,... is it a previous PM,..?
Cades Cove Fiddler, Thanks, I've resent the subject PM.
Another stab at that engraving: J. LaMayors - J. LaMajors - J. Gallory -?
Two (2) letters (in the middle) have the same formation at the bottom, but 'T's' and 'L's' make no sense if followed by o-r-s, so I've used a upper case 'M'. You stare at this stuff long enough, grabbing at your own answers and a few tall scotch's while you're at it and end up like Martin Luther who promised himself he wasn't going to fight with the church anymore.
We'll trust to hope that the OP is as interested as we are in this piece.
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It is a very cool piece and find I am liking these mountain guns more and more. I have been trying to get a hold of the owner see if its something he will part with and make an offer. left my number with a feller that works there this afternoon and a phone message on the machine this morning. No luck so far but will see what would be a price and or possible trade for it he could live with. I have some modern stuff that he may be more inclined to have vs an old muzzleloader that will never sell and just take up space. It may even do someone and injury its so heavy. I would be doing them a service taking it off their hands. ::) The person we talked with wasn't the owner I guess. It sounded like the piece was part of a collection that they acquired. The problem is they have a lot of old relic pieces that just aren't for sale. So it is almost more of a museum than gun shop/sporting goods store. Quite irritating actually but fun to see. The blessing is they are willing to let you handle them. He has several others there that were tagged the same. I was wowed by that trigger guard. I was thinking maybe someone saw some pictures of one and wanted to build one and got carried away. Nice job on the trigger guard bow enlargement. just a little brass scraper will get the schmootzen off to where its readable. I will be traveling back over to western side again soon and will leave some space for it to come home if possible.
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I am pleased to anounce this has a new home. I will be picking it up on saturday! ;D
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Congratulations. I look forward to seeing and hearing more about the gun. Very interesting for sure.
Thanks,
Ken
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8) 8)... Bully for you, Dave,.. !!!! .... post more pix and specs.... we gotta know about this one,.... CCF
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I think this gun is a prime example of why I enjoy nicely made SMR’s more than finely made production rifles from the gun factories in more heavily populated locations. It’s kind of like the difference between modern race cars that are all made from purchased parts, as apposed to the short track cars built in the fifties, and sixties that were built from junk, and ingenuity.
Hungry Horse
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Like I said.. Everything.has a price.. Congrats on a fine gun..
Oldtravler
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Congratulations!
Look forward to seeing and reading more about this piece. The butt plate return along the comb is practically a discussion all by itself.
The tag didn't read 'For Display Only '. I think a 'Not For Sale' sign is perhaps one of the single best sales devices ever devised by man.
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Way to go, Dave!!
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That's a nice piece for any ones collection. It has some interesting features that add a little zip. Congratulations
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new to me Southern Mountain Rifle Spec.
barrel length 36" swamped barrel: 1.120" breach, waist 1.050", muzzle 1.085".
Bore is about .58 cal 7 lands & grooves
length from breach to entry point of Ram rod into fore stock 17.5"
height of Butt plate 4 1/8",
Butt plate Return 4 1/4",
butt plate width 1 9/16"
Trigger pull 13 3/16"
height at comb 1 7/16"
height at butt plate 3 15/16"
The barrel was salvaged from another gun. It was shortened by 8" at some point. The Triggers were also a salvage. The rear trigger has a brazed on trigger shoe. They were meant to have a screw in the tail of the trigger plate. The triggers are held by the trigger guard. There is distinctive file work on the trigger plate. . The rear sight has a unique base plate. The lock is from an Enfield rifle. The lock plate is stamped 1861 and has Tower above that date. A very cool piece. It can certainly be called a hog rifle, weighing in just under 10 lbs.
(https://i.ibb.co/MGk8CWd/20210327-162327.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2s38kmJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/D19yhNx/20210327-162406.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4F8Gzc6)
(https://i.ibb.co/mFnw0LZ/20210327-164439.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3YxqvD6)
(https://i.ibb.co/sVJKgdc/20210327-164453.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5JPfwX)
(https://i.ibb.co/yybcpNn/20210327-152537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QN13kJF)
(https://i.ibb.co/XCcVyz6/20210327-153614.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Rb2Y5C)
(https://i.ibb.co/4YPPgXh/20210327-153635.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NmZZnJc)
(https://i.ibb.co/vk5LQV1/20210327-174829-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9WXyVcn)
(https://i.ibb.co/7CW2SJn/20210327-174853-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KhqF5j2)
(https://i.ibb.co/VL6zQz1/20210327-164745.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PrkP9PL)
(https://i.ibb.co/s15ZDJz/20210327-164807.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FYsFfqC)
(https://i.ibb.co/k6QPwGh/20210327-164832.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4gP0XFj)
(https://i.ibb.co/VL6zQz1/20210327-164745.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PrkP9PL)
(https://i.ibb.co/25H0hJM/20210327-164625.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6hb9YW)
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;) ;)... Great find, Dave,.... not a flintlock, and not signed by a desireable old Tennessee gunsmith, ... just a plain mountain hog rifle,... THIS is the kind I like to see,... !!! ... I still think East Tennessee,... those modifications only make her more interesting,... You know that many old mountain rifles were bored to 58cal at the Knoxville and Asheville armory and used in the War of Southern rebellion,..? ... maybe one of those,..?? ... also, the Garland family name is common in upper East TN,.. there is one famous rifle signed "B. BEAN for E. GARLAND",...Congrats .... you've got a keeper... regards,... CCF...
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I have a question for those who have expeirence with fore stock repairs. I have done several over the years with minor cracks but not any substantial repairs. To the point, repairs to thin forestocks using linnen as a stuctural backing. I have heard about and was curious if that is still an acceptable why to stabilize a cracking forestock? It has been something I have come across on couple originals. As you can see I have several cracks in the forestock that need to be addressed at some level. My most worrisome is the edge crack that I in a moment of not being careful snagged and extended the crack further. :-\ >:(
(https://i.ibb.co/CPqLJNR/20210328-105615.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KKYnNRT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zz4KNDL/20210328-105630.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k2b0MCH)
(https://i.ibb.co/f9nrXGd/20210328-105637.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jzW38Zk)
(https://i.ibb.co/JxFvhKh/20210328-105658.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0BVCwcw)
I was surprised to find the ramrod channel exposed for its entire length in the forestock.
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Wonderful SMR! As a youngster growing up in East TN, this type of plain, hardworking rifles were the norm (never saw anything but caplocks). It truly reflects the ingenuity of the Appalachian mountain gunsmiths to utilize what was at hand. That rear sight is a dandy! Perhaps out of ignorance, we called ALL of these rifles "hog rifles" regardless of weight or caliber.
J.B.
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The more I look, the more I like it! Thanks for sharing it, as its this kind of stuff that makes this website like no other. I'm leaning toward "Garland" as the engraved name but may be over-squinting. Poking around here I found a reference to a Briggs Garland in Fannin County, GA and there is a rifle in the Atlanta History Center that is attributed to him, though it is a poor-boy style and I can't find any pictures of it that are clear enough to make any reasonable comparisons.
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This rifle is a real gem. Much of what I'm reading by those who really know these southern rifles strongly suggest a restock, though the person that did so looks to have added a few 'personal' touches. I think the intentional shadow line on the cheek piece is very distinctive. The rear sight, as noted, is extremely well made, exquisite actually. The filing on the Soddy style butt plate return, which are usually plain/smooth (I think) and the matching filed ram rod pipe(s) were I think added accents. These features may help establish the builder of this piece.
The swamped barrel is a forged piece of art in and of itself. The .58 caliber bore, as Cades Coves Fiddler pointed out would have permitted it to shoot ammo from military reserves. The shortening of the barrel was obviously deliberate, though I have to submit that it is much more 'horse' friendly at that length and makes you wonder if its owner thought it a more useful length for a rifle heading into the west after the war.
Ken Guy had written about these iron mounted SMR rifles built using locks from Harpers Ferry muskets and using the British Enfield lock on this rifle, replacing the original, makes perfect sense and is actually a very close fit. I would think a military grade heavy main spring and a lighter sporting hammer, would make for a very quick lock time.
Just a super, super piece to study and discuss.
One thing is certain and that was I was really, really far off in my engraved 'signature' guesses. I think Cades Cove Fiddler nailed it with 'Garland'. The engraved 1883 date is a bonus, regardless of who, or what, it represents.
Q. Does the barrel evidence any wear pattern, from the ram rod, along the bottom flat? Just curious...
Thanks for all the great photos and details.
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Outstanding rear sight. I want to make one of those!
If you use fabric in your forestock repair I can send you a piece of silk left over from making my do-rag, neckerchief, all-round piece of cloth from my kit. Very strong and thinner than linen of similar strength. I’ve got linen of varying thickness too. Just postage needed.
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There is a wear pattern on the bottom flat of the barrel from the ramrods use. I used some tite bond glue and my bicycle inner tube to bind it all together having wrapped the barrel with surane wrap. It seems to have worked well. I tired to wipe off the excess glue before the final binding and only had a couple area of squeeze out glue to clean up.
Rich thanks for the offer. I have both silk and thin linen. I am still of the opinion that your freshioning skills should not be ignored and am torn as to which project to send for your attention. I will be pulling the breach plug on this bad boy this weekend to see what we have. You might be getting a closer view of that sight. I did make a new sight for the one missing up front. My son and I had did some cuttle fish silver casting and I took one of the failed jobs and cut out a front blade and mounted it in a brass plate. I was wondering as I set it in place if I should have used Iron or copper to be more Pc for this type of rifle. Given its late nature I figured brass was not a deal breaker.
(https://i.ibb.co/qpp7rsH/SE-Tenn.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w44BzWn)
(https://i.ibb.co/KGsHrBF/SE-Ten-restoration.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TT05gJm)
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Nice to see another TN rifle. I think it's great how in the Appalachians they just kept making what they knew, a lot longer than the rest of the country. Back woods was a good thing, to me.
The transition part of the stock where the ramrod goes in looks a lot like my TN rifle.