AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Long John on August 06, 2008, 05:16:29 AM
-
Friends,
A while back I indicated that I would post pictures of the little Bucks County Squirrel Rifle I had at the Gunmakers Fair. (This is my first effort at posting pictures - let's see if I can get this right.)
Here's a few pictures:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0021.jpg&hash=94d06dc8722c676816fc805949e9b364340e557c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0020.jpg&hash=66aa19c7c95005263fc8cd28694eed3da8720e8b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0019.jpg&hash=5d0fd381844f1ddc1bcc7246c30cda2a07c3d0ff)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0018.jpg&hash=55b7fe64d501663d4f5d3b918bd5b487f30b7fd6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0008.jpg&hash=e6e63d2d14d796e7531db20b29d2f23df04cab8b)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0004.jpg&hash=f5c73d1ab0a13a7fe9ca2e7b91d019278120cd8c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0003.jpg&hash=9bd22bb852548408e5e791f94cf6b818c8a1ecb9)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0007.jpg&hash=201d664fb9c6a418cf713355014cc89afc6f7034)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0014.jpg&hash=acc69b6e19b7de783914e0aacc9f40918ce9718d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff349%2Fjmcholin%2FBucks%2520County%2520Squirrel%2520Rifle%25201%2FDSC_0013.jpg&hash=d3626d532a40651fdfe499d6fddccace34d16bb1)
Without a doubt this is the best piece of work I have ever done! I have many of you to thank for that. It was as if I had a bunch of you sitting on my shoulder as I was working on it. Acer wouldn't leave that rough spot there. Jerry wouldn't accept that excuse. Eric wouldn't let that mistake go uncorrected. You guys haunted me!
This rifle was assembled from a blank, barrel, lock, TG casting, BP casting and purchased screws. All other parts were made by me. It was inspired by RCA 65 (I hope that is obvious!) It was stained with vinegar/iron stain.
Here is what I learned.
Due to some family situations here I actuallydidn't finish the rifle before I had to leave for Dixons. I was screwing parts together at 10:30 Friday night. Next time I won't be in that position. You make decisions due to the press of time that you would not make under different circumstances. There are rough spots in the carving. This is my first effort at engraving! No time to practice on a piece of plate just learn while doing the rifle. The engraving is "rough" to say the least. But it is still the best I have ever done.
The judges deducted points for the patch box being too small and for wrist length. The deducted points for too much wood between patchbox cavity and the butt plate. They said the patch box was not finished properly, that the wood finish is too thick and that there were rough spots in the engraving (understatement!) and carving.
Some of their comments were well-taken and I have to agree with. Others are just plain wrong in my opinion. The length of the wrist and patchbox are correctly proportioned based upon the rifle I was trying to build. The wood thickness between the BP cavity and the butt plate is exactlywhat Buchelle, Shumway and Alexander recommend. So, in my view, they deducted points where they should not have.
Nevertheless, all in all it was a valuable experience. I am pleased. Now I will finish the rifle and come September Ollie and I are going squirrel hunting!
Best Regards,
John Cholin
-
John,
Simply Elegant. A beautiful piece.... nicely done.
-
What the heck do those Juges know, I think it's beautiful, and that nice white Missouri flint just sets it off. Like long neck beers a sight to behold.
Bill
-
Workmanship to be proud of.
Bob
-
Looks fine to me. Knowing yourself what needs fixing is a major part of the battle.
I screw up something on every gun I build it seems like.
Judges can be, well, judges. You know where they were right and where they were wrong so don't sweat it too much.
I am dragging my feet staining one right now because I KNOW I will find a hiccup after I get started on the finish.
Dan
-
Beautiful rifle! Long and slim. ! like your vinegar/iron stain. I'm going to try a simlar stain on the pistols I'm making.
Best regards
Rolfkt
-
John...
Thanks for posting the pics of your beautiful 'lil squirrel gun. For those of you who didn't get a chance to see it at Dixon's, it looks even better in person. It also handles very well and is nicely balanced. I think you did a great job!
Like Dan said, judges can be judges, and lots of what they look at is subjective. For what it's worth, I also felt you did a great job on the architecture. The batchbox dings are typical of the critiques given by the judges. Anyway, very nice looking rifle, and again thanks for the pictures. Give Ollie a pat on the head for me and good luck with the squirrels.
-
I really like it and agree the architecture is right for the gun you were emulating, and I love long-wristed guns. Sometimes the judges look for the "ideal" derived from Golden Mean or something, and lose p;erspective on recreating a style.
Fit and finish look flawless. Carving is as good or better than most originals. Engraving is not up to Verner's work but then nobody else in Bucks County was up to his either. The wrist and lock panels and forearm look right. Would love to see more.
On the buttstock architecture I'd be tempted to leave a slightly smaller flat area surrounding the patchbox. The trouble with a beautiful finish is that .030" difference stands out pretty strongly.
I'd think of the rifle like this: If we found an original that looked like this, even after 215 years of wear and tear and aging, none of us could afford it, and all the judging details and little picky things would simply be "the way they did it then".
As an editorial point, Dixon's judges seem to have a fascination with patchbox cavities and it would be helpful if they issued a paper on correct patchbox cavity dimensions, finish, location , etc. I'm not kidding. We're left knowing A is not right, B is not right, C is not right, but not knowing what exactly IS right.
-
Great looking rifle. Really like the stain, great color. How did you make your stain? I haven't heard of using vinegar and iron before. I don't know what the judges were looking at, but it looks good to me.
Gibster
-
Looks like a winner to me. Nice job!
Tim C.
-
A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery. Regarding the thickness of the wood rear of the PB cavity, you have three judges at Dixons that agree that it is too thick and three authors that agree that it isnt. Whose right??, I don't know but I wouldn't give the trump card to the authors just because they wrote a book. If the truth in this detail is important to you, I would take this a something to research. However, for me personally, I think this is one of those many places where we over-analyse these things and think that the old masters had a specific measurement for such things. Personally I would have put the rear of the cavity back about 1/8" so it lined up with the center of the rear hinge barrel. This would balance it out nicely with the front of the box which is already centered on the forward hinge barrel. I'm not saying that it's the right way to do it, just how I would do it. Engraveing has rough spots???? they are obviously judging against other contemporary work rather than against the old ones. You are obviously happy with the results of your efforts and well you should be. You've done a wonderfull job. Wish I could have been at Dixons to see it in person.
-
Gee John it looks real nice, and congratulations again! I told you that you did a great job.You deserve a pat on the back. Wanna see the next one...Geo.
-
Darn nice and congrats on your ribbon. Yeah, Judges are Judges... Been there.
So, bring that little beauty along to First Frontier and shoot her in the matches. ;D
-
In the end the only judge that matters is you. I think it is a beautiful rifle and very well done. As far as the carving and engraving go they are far better than I could have done. The finish is very nice as well. Now the only thing I find troublesome is that the shiny finish will spook them squirrels if you ain't careful!
-
I really like it and agree the architecture is right for the gun you were emulating, and I love long-wristed guns. Sometimes the judges look for the "ideal" derived from Golden Mean or something, and lose p;erspective on recreating a style.
<snip>
I think the "golden mean" thing gets over worked. While it might be a guide I can't see it as something set in concrete. I would also think that is where they got the "too long wrist" thing. Then we should ask "do all good quality original rifles pass the golden mean?". If not then it is not something to jerk people around on in judging. If they are going to have "rules" of this sort then, like the patchbox thing, they need to make this known. Otherwise it smacks of "secret rules" that can be used to gig makers who are not "properly informed". Then I get distrustful of the whole process.
Dan
-
Agree, all Bucks County rifles are long wristed and that is part of their appeal to me. The wrist MUST extend past the trigger guard to look right on a Buck's County rifle, for me.
I must say that John's work represented here is at a new level and agree that now I think, "What would those ALR boys think of this?" when I work. It sure would be good to be able to have a big workshop with 8 or 10 stations, everybody on the ALR forum stopping in to do some work or offer some advice or perspective. Guss that would be ALR heaven! This forum will have to suffice for now.
-
Great work John. I love it. I bet it would require considerable courage to enter a gun not really knowing what kind of standards will be in place.
Kevin
-
John, That is one VERY COOL Bucks Co. rifle. Anyone (even the judges) would be proud to carry it!
I'm not seeing the problem they stated about the finish in the pics. One thing you can still do is rub it out with rotten stone and Boiled linseed oil on a soft rag. That really mellows the finish!
-
Terrific rifle. I would be proud to carry it anywhere.
-
The judges didn't like the Pbox, the wrist, the carving, and the engraving. Screw 'em, you did a very nice job. That is a very well done, slender rifle that effectively captures the essence of a Bucks county rifle. That's what counts.
J.D. who has issues with supposed authority figures.
-
Firstly, John, I think you nailed #65 from RCA. Good job I hope to make a rifle as nice someday. I like your carving. I like the color of the stock too!
Second, I sat through a seminar at Dixons this year and one of the judges explained the thought process. When you compete in the "traditional" rifle category and send up a Buck's County Rifle they look for traditional characteristics of a Buck's County rifle. If your specimen deviates from their notion of what a Buck's county rifle should look like they deduct points. If your wrist is too long from their concept of an ideal Buck's country rifle you will loose points. Architecture and decoration that deviates from the "ideal" will deduct points even if those features are found on a speciman or two.
If you pick up RCA and look at #65 and read the description you will see that while it has many Bucks county features it also borrows several features from other schools and is really hard to fully classify in any genre.
The way you get around this with the Judges is to send up some pictures with the gun and say...its a recreation of this gun. Then they will generally judge it in that context. But if you don't send up that information with the rifle how would they know? I'm not saying you didn't communicate this to the judges but if you didn't they have no recourse but to compare it to the "ideal" Buck's County rifle.
Allen Martin made some great observations about submitting guns... He said that the judges are some of the foremost authorities on PA Longrifles in the world. That if you have questions about their scoring you should ask them about it--THEY WILL TELL YOU! The goal here is to learn to get better at this craft. That if you send up a gun for scoring, learn from the things that took off points BUT...also look at the things you did correctly!
Ron Gable was on of the judges and he's been collecting KY rifles for 55 years. Owns several hundred originals and has probably held in excess of 5,000 originals in his hands. He's not a builder and will tell you so. I respectfully defer to such knowledge and when FREE advice is offered from someone like this I think it deserves a listen.
Doesn't mean John didn't build a superb gun. Clearly he did. I think we all can learn from John's build as well.
-
Thanks for all the compliments, guys!
What is best about this rifle for me is all I learned during the process. I don't think I will ever buy another ramrod thimble; making them myself is just too satisfying. The same goes for fore-end caps and triggers. Even Roger liked the trigger on this rifle and he is known to be a might particular when it comes to the shooting aspects of a piece.
At every aspect of the build I ended up pushing myself out beyond my knowledge and comfort zone thanks to comments made hear by the likes of Jerry, Acer and Eric. That made the whole project an adventure. I have them to thank for that. The critiques I received from my ALR friends last year when the rifle was in the white were invaluable. They made a profound improvement in the final product.
This forum really does provide a route to improving ones skill in the craft!
To answer the question on vinegar/iron stain, I just take old, iron barbed wire off old fence posts and toss it into a croc or jar of white cider vinegar. The vinegar slowly reacts with the iron to produce iron acetate solution. I simply raise the grain with the solution, usually 3 or 4 times. When the stock stops smelling like vinegar all the iron acetate has converted to iron oxides. No heating necessary.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
-
John, First off, you have a nice looking rifle, wish I had got to take a look at it in person while I was there. I have one question for you. I know from meeting you that you are a tall guy so I was wondering what the length of pull is on your gun. From the pictures the wrist as well as the buttstock look proportioned to each other so I am assuming the pull was made for you. We have one guy out here in Washington who insists on using a 15" length of pull. With that pull it is really hard to proportion the rest of the rifle so no matter how you look at it, it just don't look right. Keep up the good work.
Dave
-
The judges deducted points for the patch box being too small and for wrist length.
John,
I went back and studied your pictures a bit and "may" have an answer. Your trigger appears to be too long and slanted backwards. If it were straight and shorter, it would fit into the bow better. The front of your trigger bow is even with your cock screw. If the trigger was done properly, you could move the guard forward so the bow would be directly between the cock and the pan, but your trigger would still be near the back of the bow.
In turn, this would allow you to shorten your wrist length by a proportional amount, solving the appearance of the overly long wrist. In turn, the patchbox might "appear" to be larger. Everything is about tricking the eye to make it look right, not necessarily actual measurements.
Anyone else concur?
-
John,
I really like Bucks County guns! You did a very nice job on yours, and I believe you made it to fit you, and I believe you're a tall man. Judges are just that,judges,no matter. I had a nice Bucks years ago and kick myself for letting her go. I know you're going to shoot 'er good! Great job,John!
ps,after you post an image,Click ENTER,and post your next image, you get a nice space between your shots.
-
John,
The way I look at it is we are all learning with every rifle we build. You have a really nice rifle and I would just take the judges deductions as an opinion you can learn from. Great job and keep it up.
-
Dave, I follow what you are saying (I think) but, how would repositioning the TG allow the wrist to be shortened without reducing the LOP?.
Something to ponder. Before yall slam the judges at Dixons, consider what it is that they are trying to do. They have to judge perhaps 30-40 rifles and can only give best of any catagory to only ONE. Of the 30-40 entrants, there are likely 20 that are VERY good and 10 of those are outstanding, 5 are stunning. They HAVE to nit pick. Put yourselves in the judges shoes. Just for fun, think of yourself judgeing a Huddleston, Shipman and Price gun and you can only give a blue ribbon to one. What would you tell the other two builders??. If the other two builders posted pics here and said that the judge said that this, this, and this was wrong, yall would call for the judges head on a platter. It's easy to give out blue ribbons when you are only judgeing one gun.
-
The judges deducted points for the patch box being too small and for wrist length.
John,
I went back and studied your pictures a bit and "may" have an answer. Your trigger appears to be too long and slanted backwards. If it were straight and shorter, it would fit into the bow better. The front of your trigger bow is even with your cock screw. If the trigger was done properly, you could move the guard forward so the bow would be directly between the cock and the pan, but your trigger would still be near the back of the bow.
In turn, this would allow you to shorten your wrist length by a proportional amount, solving the appearance of the overly long wrist. In turn, the patchbox might "appear" to be larger. Everything is about tricking the eye to make it look right, not necessarily actual measurements.
Anyone else concur?
I think the lock is slightly too far forward due to a long breechplug.
The distance from the breech to the heel of the butt and the length of the comb are the deciding factors. I think.
Dan
-
Dave, I follow what you are saying (I think) but, how would repositioning the TG allow the wrist to be shortened without reducing the LOP?.
Something to ponder. Before yall slam the judges at Dixons, consider what it is that they are trying to do. They have to judge perhaps 30-40 rifles and can only give best of any catagory to only ONE. Of the 30-40 entrants, there are likely 20 that are VERY good and 10 of those are outstanding, 5 are stunning. They HAVE to nit pick. Put yourselves in the judges shoes. Just for fun, think of yourself judgeing a Huddleston, Shipman and Price gun and you can only give a blue ribbon to one. What would you tell the other two builders??. If the other two builders posted pics here and said that the judge said that this, this, and this was wrong, yall would call for the judges head on a platter. It's easy to give out blue ribbons when you are only judgeing one gun.
When you put in for something to be judged you agree to accept the judging. Yes they have to nit-pick. Its their job. But they need to appear to be fair and consistent and in line with original rifles or they loose respect.
Yes people just LOVE to yell "kill the umpire".
To John.
Take the distance from the breech end of the barrel to the farthest point of the heel of the butt (straight line not over a curve) then multiply this by .45 and see if the distance from breech to where the comb meets the wrist matches the result.
I think that a wrist of 45% is pretty close to the A.Verner and the "John Fries Gun". Based on measuring the photos in Kindig. Rifles 52,53,54 are all 45% ballpark. If I am close in my measurements.
One way to look at this?
Dan
-
I agree with dphariss. I loose a lot of contests. I figure it's good for me. It means I wasn't good enough to beat the other guys. SO-- I have to get better. BUT--- when you do win it means a lot more because you know you were probably the very best at that time.
I personally know most of the top engravers in the world and some of the best gunmakers. The very best don't win every time. They may win more often. Life would be exttreemly boring if there was no room for improvement. Get up every morning hoping you can learn something to make you a little better and life will be good.
-
Long John,
I entered a rifle in at Dixon' for judging for about ten years in a row. In the beginning I got nothing, but each year I did a little better, and finally I thought this would be the year for a big win. The rifle that I entered was what I thought the best that I had ever done. I got nothing. I was so discouraged that I said that I would never enter another rifle because I just couldn't do any better. The following year I built a rifle for a friend and gave it to him for a present. He was so happy with it that he insisted that it would go to Dixon's for judging. I knew the rifle was not as good as the one that I submitted the year before and to my surprise it won best of show. I still don't think it was the best rifle submitted that year.
The point is I don't agree with the way they judge there, but I must admit that they did make a better gun builder out of me. Even though I don't enter a rifle there for judging anymore, when I build a rifle now I feel that the judges are over my shoulder watching.
Don't get discouraged, you built a beautiful rifle and should be very proud of it. If you look at any rifle hard enough you will find a few areas that could be a little better.
-
I don't think we're bashing the judges excessively. It's that some of their criteria are not clear (frequent points off for patchbox cavities indicates they have very strict criteria there which are unexplained). It is also clear that some of the judges do not consider guns styled closely after originals to be candidates for ribbons, unless the originals meet their criteria.
-
Thanks for all the comments. Many are very helpful in my quest to become a better gun-maker.
It was NOT the intent of my post to take pot-shots at the judges at the Fair. They are unpaid volunteers who are donating their time, knowledge and insight in the effort to preserve a cherished aspect of our national culture. I elected to include a synopsis of their comments so other members of this forum could learn from my experience.
When I build a rifle, I build what I think will function well and look nice, in that order of priority. On this rifle, the trigger is raked back because I think it looks nice AND it allows me to design a trigger with a large mechanical advantage, yielding a light trigger pull for accurate shooting. I could have replicated the trigger as it is on RCA #65 but I liked mine better. That's why I consider the rifle "inspired by RCA 65" rather than a re-creation of that rifle. I did measure the LOP (13.75 inches, Dave), the drop at the heal and the drop at the comb. These measurements are critical for fit. The length of the wrist was determined by how far back my right hand had to be so that the knuckle of my thumb does not interfere with the sight picture. It would never occur to me to calculate ratios of comb length to LOP to match rifles in the references unless my objective was to replicate a particular rifle. There is so much variability in the guns for which photos are available that I would question any "rule" derived from them. I did scale the patchbox to the photos because I really wanted to achieve that "look".
I have decided that I am NOT going to build to please judges - I am going to build the best rifle I possibly can and then try to improve on that with the next gun. I made the ramrod tips for this rifle Monday night and got started on tuning the lock last night. I'll put a little engraving on the lock before I brown it. I plan to brown the barrel too. I'll add some engraving to the side plate and toe plate before I deem the rifle "finished". Then I will get going on the next one, a 54 caliber deer/bear rifle inspired by a number of rifles in RCA.
Thanks for all your feedback.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
-
a bit off the judging topic.....but can you describe how the patch box release works on this gun?
-
John, That's a great loking Bucks Rifle. Very well done. I am also interested in your PB release. Is it coming from the toe plate extension ?
I to am working on a Bucks Rifles , this inspiration for me.
-
a bit off the judging topic.....but can you describe how the patch box release works on this gun?
The cattch is an L-shaped lever that rotates about a pin that is installed at the bottom of the PB (rifle on its side), parallel with the hinge and goes through the catch lever where the two legs of the L join. The long part of the L is the catch. The short part of the L is a cam that is acted on by the catch spring. The catch is pushed away from the hinge by an L-shaped music-wire rod that is installed in a little trench in the bottom (rifle on its side) of the PB cavity. It fits onto a larger diameter brass rod that extends through a hole drilled through the stock to the under side of the toe plate. The toe plate "loli-pop" has been hammered thin to work harden it and make it springy. When the loli-pop is pushed into the stock it depresses the brass rod which pushes the music-wire rod which rotates the latch lever about the pin, releasing the PB door. A single spring is screwed to the bottom of the patchbox (rifle on its side) that provides the return tension for the catch lever and opening force for the BP door. If you want a copy of the sketch from which I worked email me and I will scan it and send it to you.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
-
hey long john, i also saw your rifle at dixon's, very nice gun... one thing to remember is the if your going to build a bucks co, Allentown, or any eastern co. school rifle it better be correct..these guys own or handled
hundreds of originals over the twenty years they have been judging. the number one thing they like
is a deeeeep patch box with thin edges and scraped smooth..my early ones weren't, i read my critique papers, changed the box and won ribbons. the thing i tell a lot of people when comming to dixon's is be prepared for criticism. you came here...the didn't ask you to. take your licks and next year bring a rifle
with that in mind. listen to the judges and you will win ribbons.. and build a correct rifle.
hope you don't get discouraged, come back next year. i started with my first entry 12 years ago
in the first gun apprentice and it took that many years to get to the masters category.
-
I don't know the first thing out how its supposed to look, but it can grace my gun cabinet any time.I think that its a beautiful rifle and I'll bet the game will never know the difference.I have always been a thats about right kind of person, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
-
Another thing to consider is that if you don't want to conform to the judging standards of building a traditional style rifle you can enter it in the "Contemporary" category and you won't get points taken off if you build a gun that has some unique features or architecture.
-
A beautiful gun John. Well done. I wish I could turn one out that was even fractionally as nice. Maybe. Some day. I can hope! ;)
I don't think I'd want the judges job at Dixon's. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place! So much beautiful work, so many talented builders - how DO you pick between this one and that one - and then the one over there? ???
-
Great to see your gun here, John. I think this is a splendid effort, and one that speaks very highly of how much thought and effort you put into it. Just a very pretty gun. You done yourself proud. I know you doggedly worked through this with a lot sweat and questioning, but man, you should be floating. Just a really neat gun. I am proud of you, John, for putting your heart and soul into this, and proud that you would ask my opinion of your work, and for help along the way.
Judging. Hmmm. i have had problems with that myself. But that is a subject for another post.
Congratulations, John. Job very well done.
Tom
-
John, This is some really good work. I would be certainly Be proud to call it mine. I certainly would not sweat the judging down at Dixon's, your work speaks for it self. The work that was submitted for judging at Dixon's was Exceptional this year. As a result the competition on the bench was brutal. There is usually a healthy sized group of beginner level guns, there was next to none this year. The winner in 1st gun category was incredible... So in other words go enjoy that fine rifle!
-
Acer,
That rifle would never have turned out half as well as it did were it not for the critiques I received from you and Eric. You were right about everything you critiqued! Your carving tutorial taught me points about carving that I had completely missed - I didn't even know they existed! Cody's quips about engraving taught me a critical insight that improved my engraving (as crude as it still is) profoundly. Jerry's uncompromising attitude about quality in our craft haunted me into poring more effort into every aspect of the build.
You have my unending gratitude. I am very fortunate, indeed, to have you as my friend!
I think what we ought to do is urge all the ALR members to bring their uncompleted guns to the fair for a critique meeting. We can get a bunch of chairs and let each person with an unfinished gun have an informal, "amongst us friends" critique of what can be inproved and how that improvement could be implemented. No bashing, just helpful feed-back. I know how much the critique last year helped me! I came home and took my #49 to carving that I had spend several dozen hours on and erased it all! It was the right thing to do, not because the carving was bad but because there was an 1/8th inch too much wood under it all!
Maybe we should think about such a program.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
-
John, I'm going to climb on the bus too...I agree that the rifle is really lovely. I was impressed last year at Dixon's with it before it was finished, and I like it even better now. I took this picture of the butt carving...pretty difficult to fault it then in my opinion.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy58%2FDTaylorSapergia%2FDSCN2901.jpg&hash=14fd1a18a31b98abae493e713aecea3e134e0d1a)
Congratulations on a superb rifle.
-
Thank you Taylor! You were another of those ghosts sitting on my shoulder as I worked on it! As a matter of fact, it was at your insistance that I rasped off the carving to remove almost an 1/8th inch of wood that didn't belong on the wrist!
I really think we should try to get an ALR tunk together at next year's fair where we all can sit around and help others like yuou all helped me!
Thanks Again,
John Cholin
-
John,.......Gorgeous Rifle! Here is the inside of one Bucks Co. patch box. Something the references don't seem to show. tim
(http://)(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj85%2Ftfmahony%2FW.jpg&hash=a38da9e6468f2a97c8b0f5bf02b53943a201fea8)
-
Tim, I think the builder left too much wood between the cavity and the buttplate. :o I think this is what you would call "culture clash", since John's box innards are so very similar, yet the judges say there is too much wood.
On this note:
Did you guys know that there is a seminar by the judges at Dixon's? And then a seminar by builders on how to build for the judging?
This is from Jeff Guillaume, about Dixon's judging:
THE 1ST TWO SEMINARS SAT A.M. ARE BY A JUDGE AND BUILDER .
THE JUDGE READS THE SHEET , STATES WHAT HE IS LOOKING FOR AND WHY. THE
BUILDER THEN EXPLAINS HOW "HE" ACCOMPLISHES THE ITEM BEING DISCUSSED.
i must confess that this is news to me, having these seminars available. Now that I know about them, I would definitely go and listen to what is said. It does not mean I will change how I build a gun, but I would like to have a better understanding the hows and whys of the judging process. We all know that when we build a gun 'just like the original' it can suffer terrible losses in the ribbon dept. In this regard, I would want to know WHAT TO EXPECT when I submit a rifle. i plan to attend these two talks next year.
-
Wow timm does that explain alot to me.
I got iit wrong last gun.
Any other pix of that gun forthcoming ;D
Bruce
-
Tim, I think the builder left too much wood between the cavity and the buttplate. :o I think this is what you would call "culture clash", since John's box innards are so very similar, yet the judges say there is too much wood.
On this note:
Did you guys know that there is a seminar by the judges at Dixon's? And then a seminar by builders on how to build for the judging?
This is from Jeff Guillaume, about Dixon's judging:
THE 1ST TWO SEMINARS SAT A.M. ARE BY A JUDGE AND BUILDER .
THE JUDGE READS THE SHEET , STATES WHAT HE IS LOOKING FOR AND WHY. THE
BUILDER THEN EXPLAINS HOW "HE" ACCOMPLISHES THE ITEM BEING DISCUSSED.
i must confess that this is news to me, having these seminars available. Now that I know about them, I would definitely go and listen to what is said. It does not mean I will change how I build a gun, but I would like to have a better understanding the hows and whys of the judging process. We all know that when we build a gun 'just like the original' it can suffer terrible losses in the ribbon dept. In this regard, I would want to know WHAT TO EXPECT when I submit a rifle. i plan to attend these two talks next year.
That's why I posted my comments above. I sat through those seminars and was trying to relay what was communicated.
The post before yours was a good example...that original Bucks rifle may indeed have a ton of wood left in the patch box. But the judges don't base rifles entered in the traditional category off of individual examples. Rather they take the common characteristics of a school and in their minds what is the ideal Lehigh, Bucks, Lancaster etc based on a "perfect" example of what a gun from that time might look like.
Some people will scoff at this but stop and think about it. If all that matters is your subjective opinion and tastes then there really isn't any valid criteria. If an original had gaps in the inletting then by golly you shouldn't take points off a gun you are scoring!
As I said in my earlier post. Its pretty clear what they are looking for as they passed out the scoring sheets in the seminar. Allen Martin explained how he would submit a rifle and get points taken off for things he couldn't understand or agree with. But once he asked the judges what they were thinking he corrected his mistakes and began making guns that won ribbons and by his own admission were better guns.
I'm not making excuses for the judges here--simply trying to get folks to see why they scored Long John's rifle like they did. And as was pointed out in the seminar--don't focus on the few things you got wrong--look at all the things you got right!
I still think he made a dandy rifle.
-
It is out of a desire to help the entrants learn gunbuilding that the judges volunteer their time. In the interest of processing fifty to ninety guns in a day, the judges have come up with a universal system by which to judge the guns. yes, it has certain flaws, in that it does not accommodate variation within a school of building, rather it compares your work to an 'ideal gun'.
In my mind, you go through this process, you learn what it takes to win, and you move on. Take it as an educational tool. It seems to me, that if you really want that ribbon, you must learn the ropes. Not that it is the right way or the only way to build a gun, but in order to get the prize, you must get all the details right in that 'ideal gun'. Whether you stay with this style or not, you will have learned valuable lesson along the way, as Kentucky Jeff pointed out. Use the system for the education. You may not agree with the teachers, but you will get an education. That, to me, is the bottom line.
Tom
-
There is no easy solution. Builders are going to have problems with the judging, and judges have a thankless job, and everybody wants the judging to continue. Everything has been said.
It is obviously not easy to communicate that the standard is an ideal that the judges have arrived at in their minds. No recreation of an existing rifle, no matter how excellent that original was or how superb the recreation is, is given allowance for variation from the ideal.
It is difficult to know that judge's mind, let alone agree with it.
Builders will continue to do a lot of research and carefully work within a particular style as evidenced by one, two, three or four examples of work and will produce guns that are superb re-creations within the context of existing, original, landmark arms.
If the judges think, "Verner" when they think Bucks County, then rifles like those of Shuler or Weiker or unsigned rifles with Bucks County characteristics blended with Lehigh characteristics (as many originals were) will not hit the mark for the judges. That's life; we need to accept that and move on. It is helpful to discuss this here so entrants know what to expect and take the best from what the judges do out of the goodness of their hearts and love of the craft and craftsmen.
-
As I stated much earlier, the objective of my original post was not to bash the judges at the Fair. I posted what I made and a synopsis of their comments so others could see how the work was viewed by the judges. I thank them for the time they took in reviewing my rifle.
I learned a lot during the build; but what I learned came from trying to get the architecture right, trying to get the carving to look like "real carving", trying to get the basics of engraving under control. These were all new achievements for yours truly. What I learned will go into every other rifle I build.
The fact that the judges saw some merit I what I built is gratifying. The fact that they disagreed with other design and execution decisions I made is an indication that there is more out there to learn.
Best Regards,
John Cholin