AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Lucky R A on July 25, 2021, 04:02:09 AM

Title: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Lucky R A on July 25, 2021, 04:02:09 AM

           I am in the process of assembling a Rifle Shoppe English dog lock kit.  I have all the parts but the sideplate.   Does anyone have a photo or can direct me to a good photo of what the appropriate sideplate should look like for this gun. 

Thanks
Ron

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: smart dog on July 25, 2021, 02:19:21 PM

Hi Ron,
A lot depends on what the gun is.  It is probably safe to say that many if not most English doglock guns of the 17th century had no side plates.  It sounds like your gun may be a musket suggesting it likely would not have a side plate. The three lock bolts simply tightened against the stock.  However, here are some examples from the 17th century I collected for the seminar I gave at Dixon's on British flintlock sporting guns.  Not all of these are doglocks but they are from that period. By and large, better quality British guns by the end of the 17th century used true "French" style flintlocks and the lesser grades might have doglocks.  The classic dragon side plates used on British Indian trade guns would be appropriate too.
 
(https://i.ibb.co/VTw2GY6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zx2Wrz9)

(https://i.ibb.co/XpbG5sY/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MpsJ1VB)

(https://i.ibb.co/CWrL7dw/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4JQkTyF)

(https://i.ibb.co/jvrhZmD/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgSK6jX)

(https://i.ibb.co/jwkt2PD/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SmwS84B)

Here are two 17th century doglocks.  I included them to show the typical "strawberry leaf" engraving used by British makers during the 17th century.  It was rare to find anything other than this style except by gunmakers like Dolep who emigrated from Europe bringing higher technical and artistic standards to Britain.
 

(https://i.ibb.co/c3Wwnj6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wgn7mfS)


(https://i.ibb.co/BGdG4Rs/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6N6JF0)

dave

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Mike Brooks on July 25, 2021, 03:58:25 PM

None at all would be appropriate.

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on July 25, 2021, 04:23:36 PM

What Mike said on one hand, but it would also help if you were more specific (1) about what type of dog lock - Jacobean, or a later WR/AR martial type, or a finer civilian piece? - and (2) what are you going for in the finished musket?  A military arm?  Civilian?  Restocked parts gun?

American parts gun with ca. 1716 + or - Swedish dog lock (2 screw), earlier French guard, thin sheet sideplate similar to a couple used on pre-land pattern Besses.

(https://i.ibb.co/1vQ2wDt/IMG-2685.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vwqzK76)


Early Hudson River gun using a recycled Queene Anne doglock:

(https://i.ibb.co/3MYN0r5/671-13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NmnjLVg)


Queene Anne period sea service doglock (this sideplate type was used on infantry muskets of the period as well, I believe):

(https://i.ibb.co/CQ0GRDn/download-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5LcHbw5)

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Lucky R A on July 25, 2021, 05:15:30 PM

            Thanks so much for the information.  This kit was sent to me by a client, I believe he is looking for something  that might have shown up in the colonies very early on as a utility piece.    I will pass the information on to him and he can select the style and look that meets his mental image of the finished project.   One thing for sure, it ain't no dainty gun.

Ron

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Robert Wolfe on July 25, 2021, 05:25:43 PM

Do you have Grinslade's "Flintlock Fowlers: First Guns Made in America"?  He has two or three pictured that were presumably stocked here.

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Mike Brooks on July 25, 2021, 05:50:28 PM

I used to own the last gun pictured in smart dog's post. It has a simple flat serpent for a sideplate, no "loop" in the tail.....I probably have pictures somewhere...or not. ???

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Telgan on July 25, 2021, 09:25:02 PM

Quote from: Mike Brooks on July 25, 2021, 05:50:28 PM

I used to own the last gun pictured in smart dog's post. It has a simple flat serpent for a sideplate, no "loop" in the tail.....I probably have pictures somewhere...or not. ???

Mike - I have photo copies of your photos sitting on my desk, taken from your original post #6440 dated Dec. 7th 2010. If I knew how to , I would put em up for you. They are missing now from your original post - Little box with the ? mark dealie is there now. Tom

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Carl Young on July 25, 2021, 10:04:15 PM

Ron, this pistol is in the Tower of London. Sorry for the poor quality of the photo! -Carl
(https://i.ibb.co/HVc1SDg/Doglock-pistol.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKY01Rk)

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: Lucky R A on July 26, 2021, 12:21:46 AM

         Thanks again for the input.  I forwarded the possibilities to the client and he decided to go with no sideplate (life is easy).  He will be using the gun for F & I reenactments.
Ron

Title: Re: English dog lock 77 cal.
Post by: deepcreekdale on July 27, 2021, 12:06:51 AM

Sounds like your decision is made and would be correct. Here is one I built a year or so ago, the design came from Neumanns, Weapons of the American Revolution. I believe the original is in the West Point Museum. The lock is dated 1706 but if it was correct for the Revolution, would be fine for F & I. My thought has always been that for every fine rifle that we all love, there were a hundred of these types of guns on the frontier. Very few people on the frontier in those days could afford a rifle. One British officer during the F & I  stated that only 1 in 10 settlers on the edge of the frontier had any firearms at all.
(https://i.ibb.co/VjxVW5S/IMG-20201208-081434833-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tmzBMFs)