AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: borderdogs on September 02, 2021, 01:39:28 AM
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Hi Guys,
I don't know a lot about carding wheels but I want to remove some rust from a barrel and was looking at carding the rust. I don't want to be aggressive just fairly mild I could use some help deciding what wheels to get.
Thanks,
Rob
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I know some folks who use this one: https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/wire-brushing-carding-tools/0025-stainless-steel-brushing-wheels-prod6762.aspx
I happened on a fine small wire wheel that fits a drill. I mount it on the drill press. Works for me.
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That’s what I have been using for years.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1MjyNv/95295-D25-FEBF-4-FCA-BCDA-7-DE63-A04-A97-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4gVqBJC)
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Thanks guys, so what is the difference between 2 row and 4 row wheels?
Rob
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Thanks guys, so what is the difference between 2 row and 4 row wheels?
Rob
Umm, 2 rows? Sorry could not resist. I’m sure either will work. Guessing 4 row is wider.
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??? ::) ;D anything else you need to know!
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Thats an open ended question! Actually I plan to use this on my drill press what kind of speed to you run the wheels at?
Rob
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The bigger the wheel, the faster the speed of the edge. But I never thought too much about the speed. Just don’t press hard.
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I run mine at slow speed, 600 rpm or so. Don’t run it high speed, it is a wooden center & may fragment. I thought it said the max speed on the box but I don’t see it. May have been on a sticker
long gone from the wooden center.
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I checked on the Brownell website above posted by Rich and that was one of the questions that had been asked. There only suggestion was a maximum of 3500 rpm. Seems quite fast to me. I would be reluctant to exceed 1000. Brown a scrap piece and practice. Use only the end of the wire to flick the loose rust off.
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You could also use some 0000 steel wool and rub away. Also, Brownells has a couple of wheels just for carding.
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How about a brass wire wheel?
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Brass wheels I have seen are far too aggressive - these carding wheels being mentioned are very soft. Additionally, I can see the brass leaving residue behind that may cause problems with additional coats of solution.
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I just use mine in a cordless drill. Not a big deal dont over think it. If you get to aggressive on the carding you will just have to do another application.
I found for me that I got more aggressive with the steel wool then I do with the wheel.
Fleener
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I have used scotch brite and 0000 steel wool but I think the carding wheel would be more consistent and that was why I was asking about them.
Rob
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When using a cordless drill, do you work with the wheel along the length (drill body perpendicular to the barrel)? Or with the wheel perpendicular to the barrel (drill body in line with the barrel)? Basically, are you working the wheel with or across the grain (if the barrel "grain" ran breech to muzzle).
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Be careful not to run the Brownell's carding wheel at high speed. I did that with mine when it arrived, and lost some of the fine wire bristles...flew right out of the wooden hub. So run it at slow speed...around 500 or so. Running lengthwise with a barrel will avoid over carding the edges of the octagonal section. I run mine at a slight diagonal. They really work well.
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Get a cheap bench grinder and mount a Jacobs or other key operated chuck on the shaft to substitute for the nut that holds the grinding heel and you will have a safer orientation that a drill press or vertical milling machine.
Bob Roller
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500 to 600 rpm works nicely.
I used to have mine set up in a simple bearing shaft block overhanging one end of a short bench. A salvaged motor providing the power and pulleys stepped down to slow the wheel speed down.
Then a fire in the motor put that contraption out of order (goo thing I check on that 'funny noise down in the basement shop' after the lectric came back on after a power outage.
Then while looking for another motor, I just decided to use the Mill/Drill to run the brush.
I set the spindle speed the same. The wheel was now running at 90* and horizontally opposed to what I had been used to for all those yrs.
But it became noticeably easier to use. Easier on the back that's for sure when carding bbl's. No stooping over to card lengthwise down the bbl's.
Don't press too hard, let the brush do the work. You can feel the brush wiping the metal clear. Anything heavier as far as pressure against the steel will not get you a better finish. It will only start to scar and scratch the surface up.
Card at a slight angle to the length of the bbl. That will be carding at a slight angle to your polishing grit lines in most instances and will remove the loose stuff most efficiently. Change the angle on the ride back. Then do a lengthwise trip parallel to the bore down and back to finsh it up.
All with just enough pressure to remove and burnish the surface & color.
It won't remove blemishes,,it's not supposed to.
If the wires start to get tangled on the wheel, take a moment and brush them out again with a stiff wire hand brush.
Use a clean wire brush. Any old brush lying around may have oil/grease in the wires from cleaning stuff that wire brushes are generally used for.
Use that on your carding wheel and it'll be deposited onto the wire of the wheel and then onto the carded parts.
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Thanks for all the replies I really appreciate all the advise.
Rob
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Update on the carding wheel. I got one from Brownell and used it on my barrel. I put a 1/4: bolt through it and held it in place with an aircraft nut. I ran it at the slowest speed and it didn't do much but I am now running it around 5-600rpm and its working pretty well. I don't want to take too much off this barrel just want to remove the rust and some of the worst pitting. Now I am lightly draw filing the flats with the breech plug removed. Its from a finished rifle so I don't want to take much off the flats. I am not sure how to finish this barrel nor do I know how much I should remove, I was thinking of bluing it but it was originally rust brown and that would be easier. I would appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks,
Rob
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I like rust blue myself. It’s as easy as it gets.
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Update on the carding wheel. I got one from Brownell and used it on my barrel. I put a 1/4: bolt through it and held it in place with an aircraft nut. I ran it at the slowest speed and it didn't do much but I am now running it around 5-600rpm and its working pretty well. I don't want to take too much off this barrel just want to remove the rust and some of the worst pitting.
Up above in posts you will see my carding wire wheel in a box. The lid has a hole in it for the arbor shaft to stick thru. I keep it in that box so it doesn't get contaminated with shop oils, sprays, oily hands, etc. So make sure that barrel you are using it on has absolutely no oil on it or you will contaminate whatever you try to brown every time you card it. Also, a carding wheel will not remove any metal.
As for the rust brown or blue. The brown has proven to be very durable & easy to maintain.
The rust blue has proven to be very easily worn off & not durable at all. (For me) I blued 2 dif barrels as black as coal. bout 7 yrs later both of those barrels are now light blue & they have never been used, other than cleaning. So evidently my rust inhibitor oil is doing a heck of a job, and removing the bluing as well.
The only bluing I have ever seen hold up well was hot dipped bluing, such as seen on modern firearms.
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Rust blue is the same as browning, the only difference is the color has been changed by a chemical process.
(https://i.ibb.co/37kQMq2/77724914-CA4-A-4338-B0-DE-D085-A4-D59607.png) (https://ibb.co/9NGSVL6)
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“The rust blue has proven to be very easily worn off & not durable at all. (For me) ”
Has anyone else had the same experience as Keith. I have only done hot black oxide (modern) I would like to try rust blue but would like it to be reasonably durable. Especially where I live with our, well… challenging weather.
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Rust blue is very common on double barrel shotguns both antique and more modern. No durable issues with those.
Fred
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I've done rust bluing for 50+ yrs and have never had a problem with the finish being easy to wear off.
I generally use Slow Rust (Cold Rust) Blue, but still on occasion use Express Blue on some projects.
Express Blue will show a tendency IMO to wear quicker over time than Slow Rust blue.
I think that is just from the nature of how the rust itself is formed on the metal.
In Express Rust it's an almost immediate reaction after the application of the soln to the warm metal surface that produces the 'rust',,and then the part is then put into the boiling water for the conversion to blue/black.
Slow Rust blue the rust is formed naturally over a longer time,,hrs even if you quicken the pace with a damp box. The rust has to have more of a foot or bite into the steel than with Express Bluing.
If the blue is wearing off the metal very quickly after being finished, then there is likely something wrong with the bluing process, soln, water, contamination, ect. Lots of variables.
Assuming you use all the same soln, application methods, cleaning methods, ect,,,,The only difference betw the rust brown that wears excl't,,and the same rust blue that doesn't wear well at all...it the fact that the Bluing went thru a boiling water treatment to convert the Brown rust to Black rust.
I'd look for something in that portion of the process that is contaminating or damaging the blue.
The type of steel you are bluing has a lot to do with it as well.
Some of the more modern steels with alloys of nickle and other elements that do not rust are resisting the very process you are trying to impose on the steel.
Different rusting solns can make a different too. One will work well on a particular steel where another that worked fine in the past will be a bust on a new project if the steel isn't the same.
That shows up most in the Express Rust process.
The solns themselves are not as a general rule interchangeable.
What works as an Express Blue soln will not work as a Cold Rust blue soln,,and vise-versa.
I've worked full time at restoration gunsmithing over that time and have blued and reblued hundreds if not more bbls and parts for different shops and customers. Everything from Purdey, H&H, Parker & Fox and on and on. Rifle and handguns as well. Never had any complaints. Just plenty of work.
If the process didn't wear well, all those beautifully Arsenal rust blued Mausers, Luger and Mannlicher commercial firearms from the late 1800's and early 1900's would certainly have worn to gray/white metal by now. But they haven't.
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If you are looking to REMOVE rust, the Dixcel wheels are NOT what you want. They are very gentle, fine wheels for carding between coats of browning.
If that's what you're doing, they work great! Go for the 4 row, they cover more metal and remove evenly.
If you need to remove rust, use sand paper.
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Years ago, I rust blued a set of double barrel tubes using the old Herter's Belgian rust blue. Followed the directions on the bottle and some 50+ years later the bluing is in remarkable condition after much hard use but good care. I seem to recall that it took about 15 applications with boiling in distilled water and carding in between with 0000 steel wool to produce a deep blue/black. I see that Brownells sales a product called "Herter's Belgian Blue" and, if it is the old formula, it will do a great rust bluing job!
J.B.