AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: ettoreR on September 23, 2021, 04:30:31 PM
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Hello everyone, I was cleaning my Kibler colonial rifle last night and the toothpick in my touchhole didn't plug it enough, a stream of black powder infused water dripped down my stock and left these black streaks that are set into the stock. Any recommendations on how to get this out? worst case scenario ill just sand these areas down and re-finish it...
(https://i.ibb.co/9Gc5Zy8/20210922-212652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJ5CfVs)
(https://i.ibb.co/xfnqbMf/20210922-212657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sz3rjs)
(https://i.ibb.co/swbSFHc/20210922-212702.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MVZTR6K)
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It probably depends on the finish you used as to how easy it comes off. I would try some clean warm water first.
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This should be the test for gun finishes.
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Rich, tell us where his shortcoming might be as regards the finish and how we can avoid it.
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My first thought...leave it. You couldn't keep it there, long term, if you wanted to. And guys work hard or pay good money to take a shortcut to age and patina.
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If you are going to use a gun those things will happen. And it will happen again. It wouldn't bother me.
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The finish is tried and true varnish oil, 5 coats, with aqua fortis and a honey amber dye. I don't mind too much the marks on the wrist, the one that irks me the most is the long one down the comb!
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Rich, tell us where his shortcoming might be as regards the finish and how we can avoid it.
Sincerely, I think some popular finishes do not adequately seal, and, perhaps more importantly, we tend to have zero finish on top of the wood nowadays. I get the sense that gun varnishes in the past were in the wood AND on top of the wood.
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I'd just clean as normal, maybe soap and warm water? But otherwise that's when a gun starts getting to look good. Patina build up. I use mine. I have one 30 years old that looks 230 years old, but functions perfect. Looks great. I'd never refinish it.
But that's my opinion, do what ya think best.
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Doesn’t look bad to me, but then again, it’s your gun, not mine. For very minor streaks I’ve found rubbing in oil can blend on some stocks, really depends on how the wood was finished.. I have a glossy finished cherry stocked rifle with a pale, milky, matte streak from the touchhole that stands out noticeably from the glossy finish around it. No amount of cleaning or oiling fades it, it’s like the finish was eaten clean away. If your gun is in that condition I’d guess sanding and refinishing would be the only option to truly erase the streak.
I like beat up, used looking guns so I leave mine alone mostly.
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I think your finish failed and the black sooty streaks are now IN the wood. They will not come out without a total re-finish of the stock(stripper, etc), most likely.
It's part and parcel of use.
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I’ve had that happen numerous times - just clean up with warm water or TOTW black powder cleaner usually does not leave permanent mark but depends on the finish you put on the gun I suppose . I’ve always used chambers oil finish or tracks oil finish. Permanency might also depend on what you were cleaning barrel with - solvents more likely to affect finish than water based cleaners. Like they say it adds to the patina but certainly can be alarming on a newly finished gun you put time into.
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Rich, tell us where his shortcoming might be as regards the finish and how we can avoid it.
Sincerely, I think some popular finishes do not adequately seal, and, perhaps more importantly, we tend to have zero finish on top of the wood nowadays. I get the sense that gun varnishes in the past were in the wood AND on top of the wood.
Please share your preferred finish method. I'm still learning and methods for finishing are so varied I like to hear or try as many as I can find.
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if the stain is kinda like a ghost ring on your table, has anyone tried denatured alcohol on them?
My wife inherited her grandmothers walnut dining room table, complete with rings. I used denatured alcohol and rubbed it into the finish. it penetrated the years of oils and waxes. the alcohol mixed with the trapped water and carried it out of the wood when it evaporated. just took a lil re-oiling and the table looked, well nearly 75 yrs old again ;)
wondering if it'd penetrate through a gun finish and do the same thing? and not jack things up of course...
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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Rich, tell us where his shortcoming might be as regards the finish and how we can avoid it.
Sincerely, I think some popular finishes do not adequately seal, and, perhaps more importantly, we tend to have zero finish on top of the wood nowadays. I get the sense that gun varnishes in the past were in the wood AND on top of the wood.
Please share your preferred finish method. I'm still learning and methods for finishing are so varied I like to hear or try as many as I can find.
For use, a good wax coat (Renaissance Wax or BriWax) will waterproof most finishes. I am sure the plastic polyurethane finishes resist staining by fouling, but I don’t want them and most others here do not either.
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Why not remove the barrel from the stock for cleaning? Then there's no chance of you ruining an otherwise beautiful rifle's finish. I suspect those stains are permanent.
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I'd leave it, it looks cool. You can't strip a rifle down every time you have an oopsie or pretty soon you won't have any rifle left. I'm not a fan of removing the barrel for cleaning, it's unnecessary and creates more problems than it solves.
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I don't think it will come out. If it bothers you, refinish it. And I would refrain from 2-3-4
dif things on it. Stain it, seal it, wax it, & be done with it.
I have rifles I have hunted with for 30 yrs that have no stains of them.
Now if it is a barrel with Wedge Pins & easy to take out, I would remove barrel & clean it.
But anything else goes in the cleaning cradle. Clean it Upside Down & you don't have
a issue of damaging the wood or the finish.
I have been cleaning them like this for ? 30+ years.
(https://i.ibb.co/1qpSLNV/Cleaning-Rifle.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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It's called patina. Guns are gonna get dings and scratches and so forth if you use them like the tool they were designed to be.
David
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I like the streaks....I wouldn't touch em'.
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Well since nobody has said it yet.. I really like your carving from what I can see of it
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About cleaning "solutions". The Wipe-Out brand of black powder foaming cleaners are hard on finishes.
A friend had me try it on my squirrel rifle - I cleaned the barrel with it still on the stock and my vent-dowel leaked a dribble.
Unlike the black streak, what I got was a white streak left by that foam as it ran down the side of my butt stock. The "cleaner"
removed the finish AND the stain. Guess this winter is a good time to re-finish the rifle. I bought it with THIS stain & finish, which
hides the minor curl in the wood that is visible if you look closely at it.
I usually remove the barrel every time I clean it, but didn't this time.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6BzxHK/IMG-3115.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BwSq9dM)
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Personally, I rather like the look as part of ordinary use.
I had it happen to one of my guns. Though it irked me that it happened in the first place, I got over it immediately and never lost the first blink of sleep over it. I just now looked to see that over the years that stripe has disappeared, possibly on its own, possibly due to a light semi-decade steel-wooling and refinish.
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Well since nobody has said it yet.. I really like your carving from what I can see of it
I agree that I like what I can see of your carving. Personally I do not like the black streaks and would do what I could to eliminate them.. Had that happen to me once which is why I now use Dave Crisali's magnet flush cleaner method. First I would try a plain water rubdown. If that didn't work I would try rubbing alcohol (just a small spot to make sure it works and doesn't remove the finish). Your gun to do with what you like and good luck.
Dave
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I also plug the touchhole with a toothpick to clean but then I fold a small square of paper towel and put in on the pan and close the frizzen. Sometimes the touchhole will leak but the paper towel soaks it up. Sorry I don't have any advice to refinish the stock.
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I had this same thing happen to me on a recently completed project that I also finished with Tried and True Varnish Oil. But in my case, I had applied a coat of Johnson’s Paste Wax to the stock after the finish had cured, and was able to rub most of the powder/water streak out with an additional coat of the paste wax. Your mileage may vary.
Good luck.
Jay
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I'm in the leave it alone camp. Just part of the game so to speak. Get or make one of those super magnets and make a flush tube if you don't want to take the barrel out of the stock. Flushing is a better way to clean anyway IMHO.
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Thats a shame that finish is beautiful. Did you add the stain into the oil finish or apply it directly to the stock before the oil finish?
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Your first thought was to get it off. You can probably convince yourself to live with it, but down the road I'll bet you'll wish you would have taken it off.
But that's just my thinking. If it were mine, it would already be gone. Working patina great,,, boo boo patina not so much.
John
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I like the streaks....I wouldn't touch em'.
Me to :)
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I have used the Tried and True varnish oil quite a bit , but I seal the wood first with shellac.
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I’ve had this happen to me also, I had to strip the finish and redo it. That kind of stain can happen with any kind of finish. I usually store rifles muzzle down after cleaning just in case, I’ll clean/oil then a day or two later run a patch to make sure all is right
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If you’re going to use it, don’t sweat it! Come to Kentucky and see some contemporaries that have been used like an original! They get a few thumps…
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Has anyone tried Bar Keepers Friend for this problem. It sure removed some black water stains on a walnut chest I have.
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The carving (what little of it we can see) looks top-notch!
I would suggest just try water to clean it. I think it will wear-off as the years go by.
It would be a disaster if you actually started removing the finish off that beautiful gun.
Better to live with the black streak than a ruined finish.
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Has anyone tried Bar Keepers Friend for this problem. It sure removed some black water stains on a walnut chest I have.
Thanks Jim I will have to try some of that on an old rifle I have.
Dennis
https://www.lowes.com/pl/Bar-keepers-friend--All-purpose-cleaners-Cleaning-supplies/4294599038?refinement=4294727978&cm_mmc=src-_-c-_-prd-_-lwn-_-ggl-_-DSA_LWN_127_Cleaning-_--_-0-_-0-_-0&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm-X72r6W8wIViYnICh3z4AEfEAAYAiAAEgKuivD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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happened to me too. chambers finish. i started using johnson's paste wax on the stock and now the only black streaks i can see are on the brass buttplate. i did nothing special to remove them.
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Why not remove the barrel from the stock for cleaning? Then there's no chance of you ruining an otherwise beautiful rifle's finish. I suspect those stains are permanent.
2X
-Ron
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The carving (what little of it we can see) looks top-notch!
I would suggest just try water to clean it. I think it will wear-off as the years go by.
It would be a disaster if you actually started removing the finish off that beautiful gun.
Better to live with the black streak than a ruined finish.
Thank you! I appreciate the compliment! I've tried some warm soapy water but its pretty well set in now, I will just have to live with it, I may TRY to spot refinish that area since I still have that same mixture of tried and true along with trans tin in a can. we will see how brave i get
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Thats a shame that finish is beautiful. Did you add the stain into the oil finish or apply it directly to the stock before the oil finish?
Thank you! hence why i am looking for a solution lol. I raised the grain 5 times, applied aqua fortis, burnished it, then made up a mixture of tried and true varnish oil and trans tint honey amber dye. did about 3 coats with the trans tint/varnish oil mix then one final coat with just plain varnish oil.
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At his point my suggestion is a moot point. It is called "patina" leave it alone and let this fine rifle age like the old ones did.
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I agree with MuskRat Mike, just leave it alone. Trying to redo just the streaks and have the repair match the rest of the wood is not going to work very well.
But for future reference....
After the wood has been raised and sanded I apply a coat of stain.
A day later I apply the first coat of Chambers finish. I apply it heavy wiping the excess off until the finish begins to puddle on the surface indicating the wood has absorbed all the finish it can. I do this to all surfaces inside and out.
A day later I lightly sand the stock then add another coat of stain with a clean cloth.
Same thing. I do this until I have at least 7 coats of finish.
On the final coat I lightly sand until all the bumps and runs are gone and the stock feels slick again. Then with my fingers I add a small amount of finish and rub it in with my palm until it begins to warm and is smooth with no runs.
After this I might add another coat or not.
A day later if the finish is dry I clean the wood real good then add a good coat of Johnsons Past Wax inside and out.
Sometimes I plug the TH with a toothpick to clean. But mostly I remove the barrel from the stock. This prevents any chance of black water from getting on the stock at all.
I use the Johnsons Past Wax several times during the hunting season on both the wood and metal.
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Has anyone tried Bar Keepers Friend for this problem. It sure removed some black water stains on a walnut chest I have.
I prefer the other type of Bar Keepers Friend, the kind that is ingested and then after a while you stop looking for black streaks on a working rifle....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
BTW that looks in the wood, not in the finish, just my initial impression from a photo. More trouble to remove than it's worth unless the piece is mostly a wall-hanger or safe queen.
Sincerely, Moe.
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My go to flintlock is over 40 years old and has been streaked multiple times. With use they seem to mostly go away. I have never refinished the stock. I also use a tooth pick and some paper towel. If I remove the lock to clean it as well, I pack the lock mortise with paper towel. The tooth pick is soaked in varnish prior to use which may help it resist leaking. I also often clean over a shop sink with the touch hole facing downward to reduce possible water contacting the lock mortice/stock. I try to minimize it but am not really bothered by it.
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Wont help the current black streak, but I stopped using a tooth pick 4 years ago......The following from an old post of mine.....
Yesterday I had a chance to shoot just a few rounds (for the first time) from the copy of the Chambers rifle I built a while back. Got ready to clean it today with my usual remove the lock, plug the touch hole with a toothpick, fill the bore with water, etc., etc. Just after I put the toothpick in the touch hole, I broke it off and spent a while trying to get the remnant out. As I was doing this, I noticed that I had two high pull, small magnets on my work bench and had a thought. These magnets are rare earth (Neodymium) and are 3/8 inch in diameter and 1/2 inch long. They have a pull of 19 pounds. So I cut a small piece of silicone tape to use as a gasket, placed that over the touch hole, and then held it in place with the magnets. Long story short, it worked like a charm. No leaks. Easy to attach and easy to remove. The magnets are commercially available. To each his own but this is the new normal for me. Thought others might like to hear about it.
Lock out, magnet and gasket, plug in place, all done.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nQRiG5/IMG_3959.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ctikUQ)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gWLM3k/IMG_3961.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fzkoik)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hw2qw5/IMG_3963.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hoKs9Q)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eFmuOk/IMG_3965.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mSsqw5)
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I made these streaks once on my beeswax finished gun, same way-leaky toothpick.
The finish and streak was easy to remove (I forget exactly how I did that) and then reapplied beeswax and there is zero way to tell that it ever happened. The streak was only in the wax and not into my wood. But of course a pure beeswax finish is not a popular thing, it's just what I did at the time because it is the fastest finish of all.
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I am curious what type of toothpicks you all are using to be getting leakage around them.
I can not rember having one to leak.
I use round tooth picks from a box that I bought years ago. They look like maple but am sure they aren't. I push them hard into the TH then stand rifle upright, fill the barrel with plain cold water then let it set awhile I get all my junk put back in truck. After about 10 min. I pour enough water out to start jag/ patch in barrel then lay the rifle on its side, TH down, then pull toothpick and quickly push patch down barrel blowing water out the TH. If I am careful nothing got very wet. Then I clean the barrel with wet patches followed by WD40 to get water out. When I get home I do a good cleaning/oiling. Never pull the barrel and rarely pull the lock.
The only black streaks I've gotten on the stock was my hunting rifle where I cleaned it without access to a place to lay it on its side. As well as I remember I cleaned it off with Renaissance Wax and a rough terry cloth wash cloth.
Oh, it was finished with Chambers Oil finish and waxed with Renaissance wax.
Dennis
Dennis
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All my personal hunting MLers have keys....one is a caplock and 2 are flintlocks and w/ all, the bbl is removed for cleaning. The caplock has a hooked breech but the 2 flintlocks have breechplugs so the tang screw head is hardened and and hollow ground screwdrivers are used. No buggered up screw heads. Why did I do this? Just like to dunk the breech end in a bucket of hot water. Made all 3 and making and installing keys is no big deal.....Fred
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As I stated before I use a toothpick and paper towel wadding to plug the touch hole. I dunk the toothpick in water first before inserting it in the touch hole, gives it a chance to swell some. I never remove barrels to clean unless the gun has a hooked breech. My pinned rifles only get the barrels pulled about once every 4 or 5 years. The one I built in 1977 just had the barrel pulled this summer for inspection. This gun has been out in rain, snow, you name it. It's all I used for hunting our late M/L season from 1977 until 2 years ago when I built an English hooked breech rifle. No rust but I put a coat of Johnson's wax on a barrel before replacing it.
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I have just been using black electricians tape to cover/plug the touch hole after i clean and dry the surface around it so far so good
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With regard to the broken tooth pick in the touch hole, I usually clip off the smaller part of the tip to prevent that from happening. Leave just enough to plug the hole effectively. Have no idea what wood the picks are made out of but as noted earlier I do soak them in varnish and let them age prior to using for cleaning (have also used Thompsons Water Seal). I usually carry a couple at the bottom of my possibles bag for in the field quick barrel cleanup prior to a thorough cleaning when I get home.
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The "round" picks I buy, appear to be maple.
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A bit of steel wool lubricated with a wax polish might take it out if it is just on the surface. Oil and pumice could also be tried, or a commercial product like Birchwoods stock conditioner. If it got past the finish and is in the wood probably not going to happen.
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Dennis, believe it or not, my toothpicks are the antique "Made in USA" type. I hoarded a couple boxes when they started coming in from China and I just don't use them much at all. I whittle out most of the ones I really pick my teeth with.
As for getting a leak, that wasn't the fault of the toothpick. I had left it long and then unknowingly bumped the end. Since that time I break them down to about 1/3 length and double check them for leaks. No leaks since. But I have a bunch of high-tension magnets and will be trying those soon.
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I have switched from a toothpick to a high-powered magnet. It is shaped like a large Tums disk. I cut the tip off the finger of a rubber household glove to act as a "gasket". Works like a charm. Just remove the lock, wipe the barrel clean, and place the magnet/gasket over the touch hole vent. I also pack a patch or piece of paper towel in the lock inlet as a drip catcher just in case.
I learned this magnet tip from Ron Hess, and he has my thanks.
On a round breeched barrel I still use a toothpick. I leave the lock in place, and the frizzen is closed on the toothpick to keep it in place. I also trap a cleaning patch to be first line of defense against a drip or leak.
Here is my tip: I have some microfiber car cleaning cloths you get at Target or Walmart. I keep one in my range box, and before cleaning I tie it around the stock tightly behind the breech. If anything were to leak, it would be caught before running down the stock.
Just some ideas that work for me.
OP, I am sorry you had this bad experience. God Bless, Marc
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Betcha the ones with the hole would work on a round barrel with the rubber gasket.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/hardware/rare-earth-magnets
(https://i.ibb.co/dK6hzMP/Focus-Rare-Earth-Magents-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4Gp1fy)
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I have already removed stains like that by using 0000 steel wool and ballistol oil.
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Hello everyone, I was cleaning my Kibler colonial rifle last night and the toothpick in my touchhole didn't plug it enough, a stream of black powder infused water dripped down my stock and left these black streaks that are set into the stock. Any recommendations on how to get this out? worst case scenario ill just sand these areas down and re-finish it...
(https://i.ibb.co/9Gc5Zy8/20210922-212652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJ5CfVs)
(https://i.ibb.co/xfnqbMf/20210922-212657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sz3rjs)
(https://i.ibb.co/swbSFHc/20210922-212702.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MVZTR6K)
DON"T SAND IT. Sand paper is not the answer for EVERYTHING. I don't know what the finish is but the stain is likely only on the surface. At worst a little rubbing with some finish to wet it and rottenstone should cure it
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Part of the using it as a gun thing so leave it.... Besides I like it.
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Each to his own I guess. But I think it looks terrible, and I could not live with it on my rifle. There have been several good suggestions on getting most of the stain out.
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If it had been wiped off as soon as it happened it probably wouldn’t have been as bad.
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If he had never shot it imagine how pretty the gun would still look??? :o
It's been used. These things happen.
The challenge is to NOT make it worse by following bad advise ;)
p.s.; A quick google search on toothpics: "Wooden toothpicks are cut from birch wood". There it is.
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There ya go - birch. Looks like maple.(of course)