AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: coopersdad on October 23, 2021, 07:30:09 PM
-
I've been working on this rifle for about three years, between other (non-rifle building) projects, and finally got it done. Stock is from Harrison's, barrel is a Rice Golden Age 46" .50, and the lock is a Chambers. This was my first brass patchbox, first engraving (other than my initials once), and most extensive carving. I am mostly pleased with how it looks, but would love comments/criticism.
I'll start with the criticism. This was my first curved comb rifle, and I must have made some fundamental layout errors, as it's an unpleasant cheek smacker, bench and offhand. At its first range session I fired five shots, packed up and came home. My cheek still hurts a bit. The profile matches the original rifle the plans were drawn from, so maybe it's that way too? I'm thinking of rasping off some wood where my cheek gets hit, but not sure I can keep the proper profile. Any suggestions would be welcome! And if it ends up a wallhanger, I'll be disappointed but hope I learned something not to repeat.
(https://i.ibb.co/gJHrQBp/IMG-5278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Lt1Cfy)
(https://i.ibb.co/m0zqWLY/IMG-5279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T1h83Vn)
(https://i.ibb.co/nrpRcn0/IMG-5280.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pxkth9Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/vYFr9Qx/IMG-5281.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ1bZyR)
(https://i.ibb.co/0YR0QJn/IMG-5283.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPT3Nfm)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZX9JvH5/IMG-5284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6wQZGvz)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRwg2GB/IMG-5286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMTFcvm)
(https://i.ibb.co/j8Q92nM/IMG-5287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZfFRPq8)
(https://i.ibb.co/tKqmgFZ/IMG-5291.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C8b1gDJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/y4LHfJ5/IMG-5293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VwXfj8D)
(https://i.ibb.co/2K1T0zY/IMG-5294.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RHkqGX4)
(https://i.ibb.co/2v6HD65/IMG-5292.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k4yvRyM)
-
I think it looks very good. Obvious to even a redneck like me that you have got talent. I like your carving an inletting looks fine to me. Wish I could suggest something for the cheek slapping but I cant. Nice Job
-
Very nice....!!!
Bob
-
Really nice looking rifle, Mike. As to the cheek slapping, try coming "up" to the cheek rest from the side, not pushing your face & cheek bone down hard onto it from above.
This can make a big difference to the way the rifle recoils.
-
I also like it -- I think it is made well from what I can see - color is nice and the carving is well done. The total rifle flows very well to my eye.
-
I like it, a simple and elegant looking rifle. To me, there is nothing that I would comment negatively on this rifle, the metal and stock finish look great! As for the cheek slap, well hopefully someone more knowledgeable on this style of rifle will have more insight, a 50 call shouldn’t be that bad to shoot. What’s the trigger pull?
-
Nice clean lines and workmanship.
Tim C.
-
Beautiful rifle. Always loved Bonewitz school rifles. Excellent amount of details with the right amount of enhancement. GOOD JOB 👍👍👍
-
;DTheres something to be said about not hurrying, new ideas pop up, new skills are learned, techniques are honed and the result is a beautiful rifle that anyone would be proud to place above the fire place. Well done!
-
That’s a very good looking rifle. You should be pleased.
-
Fine looking rifle. Very nicely done.
I’m afraid I can’t offer anything as to its shoot ability. I’ve never shot a rifle of that style profile.
Jeff
-
The way she looks no wonder it took you 3 years. VERY NICE WORK.
-
Very well done.. Clean crisp carving. Too bad about the cheek slap, I'd try what Daryl suggested first, just might be a technique adjustment.
-
Coopersdad,
Very nice job! You’ve done well.
On my first couple of Lehigh’s, I had the same problem with cheek slap. On these curved combs, the drop at the comb, too much “hump”, and the thinness at the comb, all add to that issue.
I’d learn to shoot this one, unless you really want to redo this one.
Again, beautiful rifle! Good luck.
-
To my humble opinion, you did a very nice job on this one
Love it
Thanks for sharing Hawkeye
-
Hey Mike - first off - congrats on getting this rifle completed. Any completed project is an accomplishment worthy of praise. I as well can't offer any suggestions on felt recoil. The rifle looks very well done from my eye. Your inletting is excellent. The carving, your backgrounds look nice and flat, modeling is very well done, nice contrast around the elements with your finish. You say that is your first scratch brass box - I don't see anything there that I would have done differently. Would like a shot of the release mechanism and the interior of the box. I always like to see the different ways builders construct the mechanical parts of these boxes - just one of my quirks. Engraving, are you chasing or using an air powered system? Your engraving looks smooth with good flow in the design. The only thing I would have done differently would be to add in more shading lines to make the individual elements pop a bit more - however, if the study piece wasn't done this way that may not be the look you wanted. Very nice rifle dude - I'd be proud of it - take care.
- J.R.
-
Mike you have done a great job on the rifle all the way around. Fit, finish and engraving all are well done. Sometimes what we like in the stock architecture may not be the best or most comfortable shooting. I think that the Lancaster’s and the Moravian rifle’s because of their stock architecture make great shooter’s but life sure would be boring if that is all that was built. Great job Sir.
-
As stated again and again, you have made a Beautiful rifle there. Now, before you start messing it up, learn how to drive that rig!!!!!
-
Nicely built LR......doesn't look like it would be a "slapper"....how hard do you have to press your cheek to align the sights? Perhaps the drops at comb point and heel should be greater? All my Bucks County LRs have curved combs and none are "slappers". I use a template for laying out the buttstock that only reaches the breech end of the bbl and the vertical location of the comb {drops} is determined by laying my squirrel LR on the blank which fits me and most people perfectly {it has a slight curve to the comb}.....Fred
-
As others have said, you have done a very nice job all around. As regards the cheek slapping issue, I had the same problem with my Lehigh and found that altering my cheek position on the coomb, as Daryl has said, combined with lowering my powder load, solved the problem. Another alternative is to raise the sights, instead of rasping down the coomb. Dan Phariss, a member of this forum and an accomplished builder and shooter, recently completed a Kibler SMR in 45 caliber with a straight coomb that he found was a cheek slapper. He corrected the problem by raising the sights.
Bill
-
I sure appreciate all the responses! The only guns I've done so far are Lancaster/Christian's Spring style, so I'm spoiled on nice fitting stocks. Fred, I will follow your advice and use those measurements in the future.
The drop at heel and comb are both less than those rifles, which is clearly contributing to the issue. I do have to press my cheek to the comb to line up the sights, but as I mess with it, I can see them OK if I adjust my head position and stance a bit and don't press so hard, so we'll see if that makes a difference. I was shooting 70 gr. 2f, so may reduce that some. Hadn't thought about taller sights.
I've been measuring and comparing and drawing lines on photos trying to determine if there was some bit of offending wood I could remove along the comb to make this better, but I think it would just mess it up, so likely won't do that.
Sidelock, I've attached a photo of the box interior and release. I copied the release as best I could from a photo of an original. It appeared the original used nails to attach the release, but I used screws as I had it in and out a lot before I was satisfied. And, the engraving was hammer and chisel, after about two solid weeks of practice plates....It looks OK from arm's length, but up close I have many authentic 18th century slips and goofs I added for authenticity. Yeah, that's right, authenticity, that's the ticket....
(https://i.ibb.co/3dgH4L0/IMG-5302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F3RtmjB)
-
Mike: I have to hand it to you too...beautifully made rifle. The wait was well rewarded.
Regarding the shooting issue, the drop at the comb is critical for a rifle that won't punish you. I suggest that the drop at the comb needs to be around 1 5/16" minimum to about 1 3/8". Yours looks to be around 1 1/4". To compensate for that you are going to have to alter your shooting form, for this particular rifle. Try this: stand perfectly straight, rifle in hand, and pick a target on the wall. Bring the rifle to your eye without changing your stance, lowering your head, or moving in any way. This will cause the rifle to contact your face much further back on the buttstock, than if you drop your head down to align the sights. If you can train yourself to shoot this way, the rifle will not hurt you. Where the rifle contacts your shoulder too is important. Your right arm should be parallel to the ground, not dropped down at the elbow. Let the butt plate come into contact with the arm well inside the shoulder joint, resting against the shoulder chest muscles instead of out on your arm above the bicep muscle. This will force the rifle forward allowing you to get your face weld further back on the buttstock, away from the comb that's punishing you.
I see a lot of people mounting their rifle like it had a scope on it, crawling up the buttstock toward the comb. That is not necessary nor is it advantageous, and creates problems such as those you are having.
Again, congratulations on a lovely rifle. As an old timer once complimented me regarding another craft project, saying: "You have the knack!!"
-
Taylor, I appreciate the compliments, thank you. You are correct, the drop at comb is about 1 1/4", way too little. This rifle was doomed from the start when I made those basic layout errors.
I went to the range this morning and tried everything suggested and anything I could think of. No matter where my cheek is on the buttstock it whacks me. I tried Taylor's method as well, which is pretty much how I shoot offhand anyway, and no difference. I lifted my head a bit as if I'd installed taller sights, and that just gave it some room to accelerate before smacking me.
I dropped the powder charge to 50 grains, it hit just a little less. I did, however, begin developing an impressive flinch.
I believe I have created an unshootable rifle (at least enjoyably).
-
Very nice. Love the carvings.
-
Beautiful rifle, love the color and metal treatment!
-
You have done a lovely job on that rifle. You should be very proud.
I have a Tulle which I made from prints. Though I loved the looks, I don't like the way it beat me up.
Add to that the fact that it shot best with 90 grains of 2f, I never looked forward to shooting it.
Eventually I decided the drop the comb by 1/2 inch.
Since it had a curved comb, I was able to blend it in fairly well. Of course that entailed refinishing the butt, an action not to be taken lightly.
Though it is not and ever be as pleasant to shoot as my English styled Fowler, it is more pleasant to shoot than it used to be.
-
I have strongly considered that, but not sure I can remove enough wood without making it look goofy. I'm working on blowing up buttstock profiles of other Bonewitz rifles, plus others that fit me well, to overlay them on each other to start learning better the relationships that make a gun comfortable, and why this one isn't. Maybe it'll show me an area to modify on this one, too.
-
Seeing all my Bucks County LRs have a moderately curved combline and don't slap my cheek, I don't think the "curve" is at all responsible for slapping your cheek w/ your LR. Shown below are 2 of my Bucks County LRs and it's apparent from the pics that the drops on these 3 BCs are a lot more than on you Bonewitz. My 2nd build many years ago was a Lehigh and it was a big "cheek slapper" and although it had a curved combline, the problem was w/ too high a comb ......the drops were wrong. I sold the Lehigh to a person at a reduced price and he just wanted it for a wall hanger and was told about the bad cheek slapping.
Also, even though the comb drops are correct and the BCs are very slender, petite LRs, I do make them w/ 3/16" cast off.....Fred
(https://i.ibb.co/60f8wXk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFbpP4r)
(https://i.ibb.co/tmMGBJS/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVDJ4RN)
(https://i.ibb.co/JkQFMD1/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q15FPTS)
-
Yes, I agree, I am sure now that my biggest issue is the drop at both heel and comb were too small.
-
Nice looking rifle Mike. It looks like you did your homework on details that are Bonewitz signature. Coincidentally I am working on a Reedy and it has been more than 3 years. Caring for a wife with dementia sure cuts into free time. But no complaint. I am using the same patchbox and it is also my first brass box. At the beginning of the project I had access to several Bonewitz and Reedy rifles which I was able to draw outlines from with dimensions. Sure is nice to handle originals tp gain sense of the maker. Hope mine finishes up half as nice as yours.
-
It is just my two-cents worth, but stocks with a high straight comb rarely abuse your cheek. Look at dangerous game rifles. Also, how many fowlers/shotguns do you see with lots of drop?
It was explained to me that rifles with a lot of drop are basically climbing your cheek as the butt recoils to the rear. The comb is higher in front of the cheek, so it gets higher as the gun moves to the rear. Also, the butt center on a gun with a lot of drop is lower compared to the bore. In engineering terms, that is a larger moment arm compared to the bore and the gun will rotate upwards more compared to a high, straight comb.
The low kicking Lancasters mentioned above have high, straight combs.
Thinking out loud, on guns with a lot of drop, I am guessing the shooter holds is face and cheek bone is well above the comb, and therefore gets missed on recoil?
I look at Appalachian guns with deep crescent butts, sharp combs and lots of drop and think, "no large bores for me with that architecture".
God Bless, Marc
-
There is one thing you could try before chopping away wood from the buttstock.
I have successfully turned cheek busters into pleasant shooting rifles by bending the wrist to lower the drop at the comb. The process involves removing the lock, cutting a piece of 2 x 4 lumber to lay the barrel on flat with the board cut out for the sights (unsidedown) and clamping the rifle with C clamps to a straight flat bench. the wrist of the rifle is wrapped loosely with cloth shop towels secured with nylon tie straps, again loosely, heating Canola cooking oil on a hot plate until about 300 degrees, and pouring the hot oil over the cothes, soaking them with the hot oil, and keeping this up for about an hour. this will heat the wrist wood thoroughly. A wedge is made to insert under the butt's heel, marked first as the before mark, pushed in little by little to move the heel away from the bench, until you have increased the drop the desired amount, plus a little. The stock will have a memory and want to return to it's former shape a bit, but most of the deflection will remain once the wood is cold again. You can move the drop as much as you want, but I'd suggest starting with about 1/2" increase of drop. You can add more later if it isn't enough. On the two guns I did this to, a Centre Mark Tulle musket, and a Lebanon styled longrifle, the difference was profound. It did not effect the finish on the rifle either...no blistering, or discolouration. I should be able to post pictures (again) or send them to you via pm if you'd prefer. You could add cast off too at the same time, if that would help.
Taylor
-
Taylor, that is a great idea, thank you,. I already located your old post and photos from bending your Tulle and have them saved. I will give it another range session, trying some more upright posture shooting - when I tried it before my cheek was so sore I think even a good fitting rifle would've hurt.
I couldn't tell from the photos, but I assume that besides the lock, the triggerguard is also removed?
-
Looks very good to me
-
This is a Hoosier hillbilly solution, and might help, might not, have you considered raising the sights 1/8”- or as much as 3/16” . I would just glue some temporary stock to front and rear and see if that helps. Would not be really noticeable and might save some real headaches.
-
Thanks Mike, I ended up bending he stock per Taylor's suggestion, which worked OK. I started another thread about that.