AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: billd on August 11, 2008, 01:32:58 AM
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I remember this being on the old board......I want to make some punches for patches. What sizes does everyone consider ideal for .32, .45, .50 and .54? I can make an individual punch for each size.
Thanks,
Bill
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If its any help, I use the 1+1/8" patch for .45, and use the 1+3/8" patches for both the .50 & .54cals
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I do not know if you have all those calibers or if you plan on going commercial, but a good way to tell is to put a patch strip ball in a barrel and cut it part way off and pop it out to get measurements. It does not have to be a tight patch. Most commercial Walmart/Local Sporting goods sotre patches are for 50 cal. One individual used to cut his patches square. He shot well enough to win a few prizes here and there at novelty shoots and get deer.
DP
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I use square patches. I punched out 2 yds. once with a 1 1/4" arch punch. I then threw out about 4 square feet of drop. Totally unacceptable for a cheap skate like myself. Went back to squares with very little waste. I cut my shooting patches at the muzzle
I haven't tried recycling my staples yet, but I did wash a batch of used cleaning patches the other day for the first time.
KW
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No, not going commericial, just for my own use.
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I tried using a punch to punch those little round devils years ago and got tired of nutzing around with that routine. Partly cut then sit with a scissors to finish the patch cutting. Phooey I say ::)
I cut the material in strips and cut 'em at the muzzle :)
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I want to make some punches for patches. What sizes does everyone consider ideal for .32, .45, .50 and .54?
.30-.39 .75 diameter
.40-.49 1.13 diameter
.50-.58 1.38 diameter
.60-.69 1.52 diameter
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Go to your local wheel and front -end shop. Ask for used wheel bearing races.Pick the size you want,id.Next find a large ball bearing ball.Place your patch material on race,place ball bearing ball on fabric and race and hit the ball with a 16oz. hammer.Perfect pre-cut patches. BTW,you don't have to smash the hammer down on the ball,just one sharp tap. Try it!
edit: I look for a size for my .62. Because the race is tapered,the small size works perfect for other calibers.cheers
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Taylor, Lennard and I also use bearing races to cut patches. Some have a taper into the hole, and need a bit of grinding to sharpen the edges a bit, but they work very well, much better than cutting squares with sizzors. I find when using pre-lubed patches or even spit patches, it is much more convenient to use pre-cuts than stips of cloth. Granted, there is more waste, but not much if done with a plan.
Taylor has a 'round' of spurce in his bacement that his anvil sits on. On the anvil which is a section of 135 pound railway rail inverted and welded to a base he lays his 'race', and sits on a chair faving the anvil. He takes a wide stip of cloth and carefully cuts 5 patches along one seam, scores the cloth and rips off that section the length of the cloth - usually a meter in length. He knows this wide strip of cloth will cut 5 patches per row. It also gives a method of keeping track of the number of patches (if necessary). This way, there is very little waste, done with a bit of care, no more than using a strip of cloth and cutting at the muzzle.
Other methods are with a cutter chucked in a drill press, run at about 1,000rpm - perhaps more. This cuts patches more quickly, and multi-layers can be done, like cutting 20 patches on one pass. Using an arch punch on about 10 layers of cloth, the way I used to cut patches for everything and still do for the .69 when I borrow it back, is also an alternative and with by using the newer 'plastic' (UHMW-HDPE) cutting boards works well. Used to cut patches on a lead sheet, then throw away the bottom patch, every time. Didn't like the idea of sticking the bottom patch in my mouth - OK for pre-lubed, though.
The bearing race and ball bearing is simple, takes up little space to pack and can be easily used at rondy if you run out.
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Finding the correct size of patch for your rifle or pistol is easy. If yoy have a piece of rifle barrel of the same calibre, even easier. Let's use .50 cal for example. Take a piece of your material and place it over the muzzle. Start the ball flush with the muzzle and cut off the patch. Now push out the patched ball from the other end of the barrel stub, or if your rifle, pull it with a ball puller. The patch will not be perfectly round, but it doesn't matter. Measure the patch and there you have it.
Now find a bearing race that is the same diameter as the patch you just made, and a ball bearing that is bigger. I use a 1 1/2" ball bearing on all my cutter/races. I have purchased them (about $8 - when I wanted to make up a prize of the ball and race, and have scored many from a friend who works at a motor rewinding business here in town. The rest has been covered.
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I buy ticking or pocket drill from Joann fabrics and cut it into squares. Works just as good as round patches.
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Pathes cut at the muzzle end up on the ground quite square. I have done/still do cut patches at the muzle periodically, when testing patch material. Due to being larger than pre-cuts (my stud seats them 1/8" to 3/16" below the surface of the muzzle) normally are, they are easier to find. I think it's a 1" race that I use for .40 and .45 cal. Taylor used some of mine last session in his .50 and they fit just fine.
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I use squares,
Lay out the material folded once or twice depending on thickness and borrow the wifes fabric cutter (roller) and board, I cut 1 1/4" or so for 50 cal. and can do up about a 1000 in 30 mins or so.
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I never tried a square patch?!?!?........did anybody ever run a test of round patch compaired to square patch for matching accuracy?...sonny
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I only use the squares for cleaning. Shooting patches, cut at the muzzle become a ragged roundish square.
I think we've discussed accuracy differences in square to round ad nauseum. Most feel there is no difference since the patch only influences the ball while both are engaged in the rifling.
Kev
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Sonny - patches but square and patches cut at the muzzle are virtually identical when picked up on the ground. That alone should tell you that square patches are the most accurate. The real question should be, are pre-cut round patches as accurate as square patches or patches cut at the muzzle. The answer to that is yes - at least in every rifle I've ever tested - that's a bunch, but possibly there's a rifle somewhere that prefers round to cut at the muzzle or square.
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The other advantage to square patches is cost, $3 a hundred for round factory dry patches, I can get about 750 1 1/4" patches out of a square yard of material, even the expensive denim runs only about $2.50 a yard.
The industry sold us the idea of nice round patches because if they sold square patches we may figure it out. ;)
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The other advantage to square patches is cost, $3 a hundred for round factory dry patches, I can get about 750 1 1/4" patches out of a square yard of material, even the expensive denim runs only about $2.50 a yard.
The industry sold us the idea of nice round patches because if they sold square patches we may figure it out. ;)
Exactly - It's called marketing ::)
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I've used a couple hundred square patches and saw no difference whatsoever...its easy to just cut, lube, and try a few yourself at the range.
AND...I don't worry about excess patch sizes...just for the heck of it, I had one of those huge TC 2.5" cleaning & seasoning patches laying on the table...sticky with warm NL1000 lube...I centered a .490 in it and stubbed it in...then folded all the excess material back and forth over the top of the ball like you'd fold a coin wrapper, and seated it down.
It center shot the target like all the others and the huge patch flared like a parachute at muzzle exit, fluttering to the ground just a few feet in front of the muzzle, closer than a normal size patch landed...so in the case of a rifled bore, apparently "size doesn't matter" either.
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I'm probably showing my ignorance (first time ever- honest!) or flaws in my routine, but I have one problem with oversize or square patches. I keep jags on the end of my rods for convenience when swabbing while shooting. If you get much patching at all above the ball while seating, the jag wants to grab it, and I worry about unseating the ball from the charge as I withdraw the rod.
Sure, I can make sure all that extra patching is folded down over the ball before I seat, but it's an extra step. Since my shooting is mostly hunting prep, I try to eliminate extra fiddly steps I might forget in the heat of a hunt. All that extra patching just seems like too much bother.
Maybe I'm cutting red tape lengthwise, but I just don't like the extra patching. When I cut square patching (roller cutter like the others here) I'm pretty careful about keeping dimensions down to a minimum. I really like the results of cutting at the muzzle, even if that too is pretty fiddly. For hunts I cut at the muzzle for the load going into the gun at start of day, plus I "cut at the muzzle" when filling my loading block.
Am I being a bit anal in worrying about the jag grabbing all that extra patching above the ball if I'm not careful to fold it down out of the way before seating?
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Just what brownbear said is why I asked this question originally, patches grabbing the jag.
And as far as square or round....some are saying square are cheaper than round because you get more per yard. Am I having a senior moment? Shouldn't you get the same amount? A square yard is 1296 square inches so a 1" square or a 1" diameter should yeild 1296 per yard.
Bill
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If you get much patching at all above the ball while seating, the jag wants to grab it, and I worry about unseating the ball from the charge as I withdraw the rod.
Sure, I can make sure all that extra patching is folded down over the ball before I seat, but it's an extra step. Since my shooting is mostly hunting prep, I try to eliminate extra fiddly steps I might forget in the heat of a hunt. All that extra patching just seems like too much bother.
;D I didn't mean I use 2.5" size patches ALL the time ;D
I was just relating one example I did that suggests excess material will not cause a problem...REASONABLE excess material...in case someone was considering square patches but is worried that the corners might constitute excess material and cause a problem. I actually use .58cal patches for .50 & .54cals and have never had the jag grab the patch like you're mentioning.
I have 4-5 stainless steel short starters (with muzzle guides) each of which has a different caliber size brass cup face on it...one time at the range I did pick up the wrong short starter and when I started a .45cal ball it grabbed the pillow ticking and tried to pull the ball back up, but I had an oversize starter tip for the caliber...only time it's ever happened, at least to me.
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The rod tip on my short starter is oversize to the point that my patches are grabbed by it. The stud on the side of my starter ball puts the ball far enough below the muzzle that the starter shaft automatically folds the exess over the ball and seats it down without grabbing. The rod with a 'jag' will do the same.
; For those who don't use a starter to be 'period correct' really shouldn't have a jag on the end of the rod.
; For those who don't use a starter because that's how loose their combination is and have a jag, you'll just have to use smaller patches.
; This starter has the 'stud' on one end for putting the patched ball just under the crown. The starter's end therefore doesn't grab the patch. the large holes is for inserting the rod into, for the last 1/4' push to seat the ball ont he powder with the same pressure each shot. That is one aspect of loading that makes velocity spreads very low. Consistancy, though art a jewel - especially in loading a ML rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FAntlertippedstarter.jpg&hash=be3cc562f199d24a2e225c1ae869d7408ab85731)
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And as far as square or round....some are saying square are cheaper than round because you get more per yard. Am I having a senior moment? Shouldn't you get the same amount? A square yard is 1296 square inches so a 1" square or a 1" diameter should yeild 1296 per yard.
Bill
You're not having a senior moment...if you punch out a row round patches, you'll have a worthless 'lattice' of material left over to throw away.
If you cut rows of square patches there will be nothing to throw away.
Used the same amount of material in either case
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I have been using a guiollotine style paper cutter for years to cut both shooting and cleaning patches.
The cutting board has measurements built in so sizing the patches is easy. I can cut several thicknesses of cloth at a time. It only takes a few minutes to make a lot of patches and there is little if any waste.
This type of cutter is inexpensive and of course can still be used for cutting paper.
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Good idea - never thought of using my wife's guiollotine cutter for patches.
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Not worth anyone's extra expense, but in our studio we have a Rotatrim paper cutter. Kind of like a roller fabric cutter mounted on a big board with a guide. I've had problems trying to cut fabric with the guilotine cutter, but that Rotatrim will do ten layers of ticking at once without a hickup. If you can get near one, it's the best all around patch cutter I've ever tried.
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I like round patches for shooting and a little larger square patches for cleaning. I make my own cutters for the round patches out of drill rod. Each cutter is about 3 -1/2" long and I reduce one end down to 3/8" X 1" long to fit into a drill press. This leaves about 2-3/8" (+1/8" wall thickness) for the cutter cavity. Next I drill a hole through the stock end to end about 0.200" dia. (this is to push out the stack of patches when cut). I then bore out the cutter cavity to the size I want and then turn down the O.D. to give me about 0.025 wall thickness for the 2-3/8" cutter length. I then harden & temper the cutter and finally sharpen it on the O.D. cutting edge. I apply my patch lube to the material then fold the material or cut it into strips, stack it 20 layers thick X 1 yard long and then turn on the drill press and in ten minuets or so have about 500 patches. Yes I know that it takes a bit of time to make a cutter but you only have to make it once ;) I also make my own jags and size them for the cleaning patch & bore size that I am shooting.
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Just what brownbear said is why I asked this question originally, patches grabbing the jag.
And as far as square or round....some are saying square are cheaper than round because you get more per yard. Am I having a senior moment? Shouldn't you get the same amount? A square yard is 1296 square inches so a 1" square or a 1" diameter should yeild 1296 per yard.
Bill
For my purposes squares are cheaper as I can buy the material in bulk and get 10x the patches for the money.
Last patches I bought were $31.75 a 1000 shipped to my door, last time I bought material the cost was $24.80 for 10 yds of material.
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I have made different sizes of patch cutters for guys I shoot with, and members of another forum. I make .750,1.00,1.125,1.250, and 1.500 for the big bore shooters.These sizes seem to fit any need from .32 caliber and up.
I make the tools out of A2 Tool Steel. They are hardened and drawn to 59Rc., and the ends are drawn back to 45 Rc. to avoid chipping them if a metal hammer is used.
I have sold about ten of these so far and everyone seems to be pleased with them. You can cut between 20-30 patches at a time with ease.
The guys that shoot the 50 calibers like the 1.125 & 1.250.
I sell the .750-1.250 for $25.00 to your door, and the 1.500 for $30.00
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee43%2FMELZDAD%2FKNIVES%2F00028049.jpg&hash=c87a3c90af1e32ad8af363e458ddd54998ca73ec)
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Those are special looking patch cutters, Melsdad.
; I take it you to pry the patches out once filled with pre-cuts, as there's not a hole at the top to receive a plunger to shove them back out.
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Those are special looking patch cutters, Melsdad.
; I take it you to pry the patches out once filled with pre-cuts, as there's not a hole at the top to receive a plunger to shove them back out.
That is correct Daryl. I could easily make them with a hole if anyone wanted it. I use a small chunk of coat hanger with a small bend on the end...works great so far.
Actually the tools in the picture are prototype models. I guess I should take an updated photo of the ones I produce for sale.
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Cool! looking forward to seeing what you are selling. The proto's look pretty good to me.