AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Westporter470 on April 04, 2022, 08:51:34 PM
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I recently acquired a 7 bore percussion rifle (yes, rifle) by John Krider of Philadelphia. It is a high condition rifle as the attached photos illustrate. I have attempted to learn more about this rifle as it seems quite unusual that an American riflesmith would build such a large caliber rifle. Such rifles were widely used in Africa during the 1800s by such hunter/explorers as Stanley, Baker and Selous. However, most, if not all of those were built by the great British firms. For example, I also have in my collection a s/s 8 bore percussion double rifle by Westley Richards of Birmingham. In addition, I am not aware of any Americans going to Africa to hunt in the mid-1800s and such a large caliber rifle would not have been called for North American big game. During my research I learned that the Historical Society of Pennsylvania has records from the Krider shop in Philadelphia, known as the "Sportsmen's Depot." The shop was located in downtown Philadelphia and was sort of an Ambercrombie and Fitch of its day. Krider owned and ran the shop and built guns from approximately 1837 to 1874, although the shop remained open until the early 1900s. Krider passed in 1886. I also learned that the Hagley Museum and Library in Wilmington, DE has even more extensive records of the shop. I since have had the records at both locations searched for any records of the rifle to no avail. That said, it is my considered opinion that the rifle was most likely built in the 1850s, but why and for whom remain a mystery.
Any knowledge of this rifle would be greatly appreciated
(https://i.ibb.co/M134QwL/JOHN-KRIDER-PHILADELPHIA-7-BORE-PERCUSSION-BIG-GAME-RIFLE-101715349-143284-775-B3-BC8-CF8-EED9-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n15vtdS)
(https://i.ibb.co/1mpYMtp/JOHN-KRIDER-PHILADELPHIA-7-BORE-PERCUSSION-BIG-GAME-RIFLE-101715349-143284-04-C3-C4811-D19-B4-ED.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0GWpKRW)
(https://i.ibb.co/7KhvdMP/Krider7-B3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vk916yp)
(https://i.ibb.co/VNVSz3K/Krider7-B4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJ728Fh)
(https://i.ibb.co/yQzTSRD/John-Krider-s-Gun-Store.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S3kTrx2)
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Really an interesting rifle. And 7 bore is plenty large - I might use it for a Kodiak or Polar bear, but at much closer ranges than the current rifles used.
The locks - they have an interesting "bi-color" appearance - are they indeed two different metals, or has the finish rubbed off the high points? If the latter, the piece must have been well-used!
I, too, would like to see more info about the Krider offerings. For the time and place, a most unusual weapon.
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Krider guns must have been cherished items. I've seen alot of them in fantastic condition.
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I am willing to bet that it was made in Birmingham England and marked for the Philadelphia retailer. The Birmingham trade was well set up to do that. Even a lot of the guns marked for English provincial retailers were manufactured by large firms like Webly, W.C. Scott, and Hollis. As an export gun it may not have any English proofs on it either. Retail trade to the US was a large part of the Birmingham business until the tarrif laws were passed in theaters 1800's at the behest of American gun firms.
Mike
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Craig
The lock is color case hardened. That is a typical look for CC. I would not be surprised if the CC is recent.
Fleener
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Show a picture of the inside of that lock.It LOOKS like a "3 pin Stanton" but could be anything.Many of the high end English locks had the lock makers name.t is a great find and an honest to God big boom hunting rifle.
Bob Roller
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I am willing to bet that it was made in Birmingham England and marked for the Philadelphia retailer. The Birmingham trade was well set up to do that. Even a lot of the guns marked for English provincial retailers were manufactured by large firms like Webly, W.C. Scott, and Hollis. As an export gun it may not have any English proofs on it either. Retail trade to the US was a large part of the Birmingham business until the tarrif laws were passed in theaters 1800's at the behest of American gun firms.
Mike
I agree that it is a British import. Krider was both a manufacturer and a major importer and sold both wholesale and retail. For example, his 1851 advertisement states, "Has on hand, just received, a complete assortment of shot guns, powder flasks, game bags and all other sporting apparatus of the best and most approved patterns". The Historical Society of Pa collection should have some relevant info on his importations as the two boxes of Krider's records hold " bills, correspondence, invoices and receipts ..." I have a rare Krider gun, but have never tried to chase it down in these records
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I am willing to bet that it was made in Birmingham England and marked for the Philadelphia retailer. The Birmingham trade was well set up to do that. Even a lot of the guns marked for English provincial retailers were manufactured by large firms like Webly, W.C. Scott, and Hollis. As an export gun it may not have any English proofs on it either. Retail trade to the US was a large part of the Birmingham business until the tarrif laws were passed in theaters 1800's at the behest of American gun firms.
Mike
DITTO
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I am very interested to know what the rifling profile is. I have a 7 bore barrel made between 1791 and 1795 by John Bass for a flintlock big game rifle that I am going to use in a build. It has a 1:43 twist with 9 grooves. Seems kind of fast, but apparently they made the big bore with fast twist.
The case hardening does look fresher than the rest of the gun. I wouldn't surprised if it were recent. The colors look good, like the interior of the Hollis lock shown below, but I would expect the lock exterior to be a little more muted based on the condition of the barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/42q4FnG/20220404-183621.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bF0N6MZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/g46Rzdx/20220404-183513.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1zbm8Mk)
It really doesn't matter if it is new case hardening in my opinion, it's well done and it is nearly impossible to find a big game gun in even decent condition refinished or not. Excellent find. Lucky you!
Mike
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First off, I would like to thank all respondents for their thoughts and information on the Krider 7 bore. I never even considered that the rifle may have been built in England, or possibly at least the barrel and lock. I have included some additional detailed photos in response to questions raised. The barrel appears to have English proofs, although I hasten to add, I am no authority on such proof marks. I am also of the understanding that American riflesmiths did not proof their barrels. I am also well aware that many, if not most, riflesmiths did not make their own barrels, at least not when this rifle was likely built. However, the lock face is clearly marked "John Krider," and the breech is marked "Philadelphia."
I will hasten to add here that even if the rifle was not built by Krider, but rather imported, the question still remains why?
Regards to case hardening, yes, it does appear to have possibly been redone at some time, but then again why, as the barrel and stock appear absolutely original.
On another note, one responder asked about twist, which I have not attempted to determine. That said, the previous owner clearly shot the rifle, as it came with cast round balls, a modern mold for same, and load instructions - 8-10 drams (225-250 gr) with a hard card over the powder and then the patched ball. The claim is for 1500 fps with 6,000 ft. #s energy! I have not fired the rifle to date, but intend to so in the near future, but not with that load. I also have a modern percussion 8 bore by Hollie Wessel. It is a masterpiece which I will share at a later date on the proper forum. However, I have shot that rifle, which is a tad light at 11 lbs, with 150gr of FF behind a patched ball (no hard card over the powder). Have not chrono'd that load, but fun to shoot. The Krider goes 13lbs with a 30" bbl. The fun continues
(https://i.ibb.co/hgNrwbr/DSC01020r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GdDGNyG)
(https://i.ibb.co/GkQBcKY/DSC01024r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rM2T4C8)
(https://i.ibb.co/HP2MrLf/DSC01019r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T0TnHDx)
(https://i.ibb.co/NWqKMjv/DSC01039r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GCDRq26)
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I don't see even a dovetail for an open or express sight.
Maybe it is the world's only 7 bore target rifle. But I do not think so.
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I don't see even a dovetail for an open or express sight.
Maybe it is the world's only 7 bore target rifle. But I do not think so.
Granted, the rear sight is rather unusual.
(https://i.ibb.co/5cQ4gQy/Krider7-B8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7y3Cd35)
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The Rifle has pre 1855 proofs. The H&S stamp is most likely for Hollis and Sheath (not Hollis and Sons as I said earlier). This one of the biggest makers in Birmingham the the mid 19th century they had a huge export business with many business arrangements worldwide.
The why is easy, economics. A business man could make more money retailing English guns than he could trying to get the same quality by producing it in house. The English gun trade had mass production of firearms down to a science and could make top notch guns for a fraction of what the equivalent gunsmith over here could do. There was just more capacity in Birmingham for making and finishing firearms. M9ost of the locks used on American built barrels were mass produced in Birmingham and brought over to the States in the white and sold by the barrel.
It wasn't until the US manufacturers, taking a que from Colt, began perfecting machine made guns that US firearms began to overtake British imports. The tarrif laws finally ended the British trade dominance and also put a serious dent in the Birmingham trade overall by making them far less competitive in one of their biggest markets, which actually started its decline.
Mike
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The pictures you took show the state of the finish much better than the ones from GunsInternational. The browning and bluing are in equally as good a shape as the casehardening. It could very well be that you have a mint condition rifle there. If it is refinished, it is an excellent job, and not to be looked down on. Pretty remarkable for a 170 year old firearm.
Mike
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Thank you for posting the part of the lock that makes it a lock,the mechanism.That is the first ever 3 position tumbler I have ever seen on any muzzle loader.The first position will allow the hammer to be just off the nipple and vent it so the loading process can compress the powder charge, The second will give clearance for capping and the third one obviously will easily fire the gun.The level of workmanship on this lock far and away surpasses most American caplock rifles and I was glad to be able to at least come close to this level when I made locks.IF I were going to revive lock making in my shop this would be the pattern for the mechanism on all of them regardless of the plate and hammer.
Bob Roller
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An EXTREMELY nice .87 to .88 calibre "target" rifle.
The targets being large and likely quite hairy.
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An EXTREMELY nice .87 to .88 calibre "target" rifle.
The targets being large and likely quite hairy.
YES! And all kinds of teeth and claws as well. ;D.
Bob Roller
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Thank you for posting the part of the lock that makes it a lock,the mechanism.That is the first ever 3 position tumbler I have ever seen on any muzzle loader.The first position will allow the hammer to be just off the nipple and vent it so the loading process can compress the powder charge, The second will give clearance for capping and the third one obviously will easily fire the gun.The level of workmanship on this lock far and away surpasses most American caplock rifles and I was glad to be able to at least come close to this level when I made locks.IF I were going to revive lock making in my shop this would be the pattern for the mechanism on all of them regardless of the plate and hammer.
Bob Roller
That's what caught my eye too. Thanks for your input on the specifics, now I get it.
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I agree with Mike, (Mattox Forge) Re Hollis and Sheath.
Very nicely made, beautifully filed up breech to that barrel. High end work.
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The barrel keys and inlays look to be heat blued. That would have faded and disappeared before the case harden colors. If the case hardening was redone, so was the heat blueing. Or... it's all the original finish indicating the gun was used very little.
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Bob,
If oil is used, the bluing will last a long time, and a rifle like this may have seen very little use.
Still, re-browning and bluing is a very common occurence in some lands, if not so common in the US.
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The trigger and rear sight aperture also appear to be heat blued.