AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Frozen Run on April 26, 2022, 07:40:57 AM
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I saw this rifle the other day; unsigned, fullstock, percussion, spike tang, possibly a Maryland? The finial on it was stunning and the owner allowed me to take a tracing:
(https://i.ibb.co/HFt9s62/20220423-131110-1.jpg)
There's another interesting finial on a different gun I plan on posting the next time I go down. Please feel free to post your interesting finial pictures here as well.
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Beautiful bird finial. Thanks for sharing. I've been thinking this finial is a feather plume.
(https://i.ibb.co/SxWmG6z/2014-04-01-14-24-19-825.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hMhdwgS)
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(https://i.ibb.co/cQTrsZg/2012-12-30-15-03-19-876.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QMmKxTb)
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That patch box is a true piece of art! Wonderful composition, and execution and it leaves one wondering what the side plates looked like and moreover why they are missing. Hard to pin down a locality by just the one photo. Is it possible to view the rest of the rifle? If it happened to be for sale, I sincerely hope that you made the sacrifice to take it home. And, thank you for showing it here. The bird is reminiscent of a Lechler/Lechner rifle which I think belonged to Joe Kindig.
Anyway, thanks again.
Dick
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Is it possible to view the rest of the rifle? If it happened to be for sale, I sincerely hope that you made the sacrifice to take it home.
It wasn't my place to discuss business there so I didn't inquire. If it ever does come up for sale or I'm lucky enough to run into the guy somewhere else I'm on that gun like a pit bull on a pork chop. Here are the rest of the pictures I took, I was scrambling to take pictures and trace things, and I didn't want to be rude and hold him up so this is all I got. I am kicking myself for not taking a tracing of the profile...
(https://i.ibb.co/99QVz8R/20220423-132401.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/m8msXcJ/20220423-132327.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/P6DrrfW/20220423-132313.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/L1P7YwQ/20220423-132308-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/kQSdCHk/20220423-132305.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y3sM8qV/image.jpg)
As for the skirts, I could only guess, I'd like to hear what other people think regarding there absence? As far as I can remember, it was the only thing missing on the entire rifle outside of a lock bolt or maybe a pin somewhere.
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It appears that the side plates were held in place by three brass or iron pins on each plate. You can see the holes in the wood. Such pins fall out over time and the plate is removed for safekeeping. So, somewhere there are a couple of fabulous side plates and no one knows a darn thing about them. I hope that you have made this fellow a friend and can approach him about the gun once more in the future.
Good luck! As to origin, hard to say. Great wood, but oddly no silver inlays. Need more full length phots and such to make a better informed guess.
Dick
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Thank you for the explanation. What do you think the story is behind the wood patch around the front lock bolt, do you think it is an original or a modern repair?
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I don't see the patch you are speaking of by the lock bolt. Just a conjecture here, but if the wood was replaced recently, wouldn't the rest of the gun also be done? This gun was almost certainly flint and should be restored to appear as it would have without the abuse. It is a wonderful rifle made by a real master.
Dick
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I don't see the patch you are speaking of by the lock bolt.
If you zoom in on the picture of the side plate, right above where the front lock bolt head would be, you will see a semicircular patch of wood with a thin seam and the grain does not match up. I regret not taking a picture of the lock area or examining that detail closer. Thank you.
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Makes me wonder if at one time there was a round washer there as part of or one of the side plates.
Tim C.
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That leather wrapped around the stock is causing the brass to corrode and it will also cause the barrel and lock to rust. I hope you recommended that he remove it before more damage is done…… LK
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LK is right about the leather boot lace wrap around the lock and side plate. You can see the discoloration and damage done already in the enlarged photo. Many a good old six gun was left in its leather holster for decades or longer and has had the finish heavily damaged. But, back to the question, it may be that the wood was damaged during manufacture or sometime later and this is how a gunsmith may have tried to do a repair. Many times the damaged wood was simply drilled out and a brass or lead bushing dropped in to improve the fit. It is well done in any case. Another possibility; it appears that the lock bolt was over tightened many times and not only broke the wood out, but also the top edge of the brass side plate. Someone removed the damaged brass, filed it level and put the wood bushing in. The pins in the side plate show some damage, too; probably from removal and replacement during the repair.
Dick
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Thank you for posting those interesting finials Shreckmeister.
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Here is a very interesting patch box, the finials are rice. Has anyone seen this before on any other rifle.
Your thoughts ?
Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/qDGQHCX/CF4-D3326-6-A05-456-C-943-B-4-A5563-BCE319.png) (https://ibb.co/51DHQkt)
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Interesting that the side plates on this gun are surprisingly close in outline to the 'bird' gun. Wish we knew who made this second gun as well as the first one. Difference being that the former had solid plates. Sometimes those old makers were maddening for their 'modesty.' I have been looking through the books for a similar gun and keep coming up empty. Well Bob, that is beautiful gun you have there. Any chance to see the rest of it? Thanking you in advance, I remain sincerely yours,
Dick
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the finials are rice.
Did you mean to type wheat? That is a very interesting finial! I would also love to see the rest of the gun if it's not too big of an inconvenience. Thank you.
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I find both of them appealing.
Buck
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the finials are rice.
Did you mean to type wheat? That is a very interesting finial! I would also love to see the rest of the gun if it's not too big of an inconvenience. Thank you.
We thought it was wheat, but was told it was rice. Will have the owner take photos of the rifle and post them on the antique section of the forum. Don’t want to highjack this blog. Just wanted to show the unusual finial on this box.
Bob
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but was told it was rice.
That's interesting, do you know what the story is behind that?
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The rifle was first shown at the Alabama longrifle Show hosted by Mr. Jim Parker. We thought it was wheat at that time, but it was a consensus of opinions by many of the collectors that it was rice.
The rifle was found by the owner a few years ago, and only shown at the Ala. show and the Knoxville show. We hope to have it at the K R A meeting this year.
🤷♂️🤷♂️
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Any idea of the builder and where it was manufactured? Was that the determining factor of Rice over Wheat? Curious.
Buck
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Maker unknown, not signed.
Just a guess it was rice and not wheat by several collectors at the Ala. show. Will have the owner take good photos and I will post them. It is beautifully engraved but unsigned🧏♂️
Bob
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Well, they do grow a lot of rice down that a way. Could be a prosperous rice farmer owned the rifle once upon a time.
Dick
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Dick, exactly what we were thinking 🤔
Bob
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If it is rice as the finial, I'd be seriously considering South Carolina as the origins of that gun. There were a lot of wealthy "Rice Kings" with plantations down in the Low Country. Most US rice was grown in SC, with NC and GA adding a bit to the totals. In the late 1800's (1880s if I recall right) some big hurricanes drove salt up into the rice fields, and shut down the industry already hurt by the Civil War. The production of US rice then shifted to Louisiana. That's the gist of it, even if it is an oversimplification.
God Bless, Marc
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Marc, thanks for your insight. Will pass this on to the owner, your thoughts are appreciated.
Bob
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I am also thinking that may be rice on the finial, as it appears to be a fine rifle. A wealthy planter of rice could afford that. I am not sure about a wheat farmer in that time. Just thinking out loud. God Bless, Marc
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So, now I am wondering if the bird depicted on the finial of the 'side plates' rifle might not be a Passenger Pidgeon? Like doves, they would have been attracted to grain fields to feed on the harvest residue. And., the idea that at least one of the two rifles shown here may have been made in South Carolina is really tantalizing. Time for folks down there to get out and beat the bushes for more, it seems to me. Whatever, wherever, they are superb works of exceptional merit.
Dick
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Several details on this "rice" patchbox rifle suggest a Carolina origin to me:
1. The engraved box with an unengraved lid suggests the Carolinas.
2. The use of a narrow [but detailed] border along the lid's long edges suggests the Carolinas.
3. The elaborate patchbox has rather simple engraving in its sideleaves, suggesting a more likely southern origin.
4. The butt plate return with two simple engraved accent lines, rather than a filed "wedding band" type profiled decoration at
that location, suggests the Carolinas and not a northern origin.
I'm with Dick on this one... most likely South Carolina. Too bad we know so little about that State's early gunmaking, with so few examples of quality rifles known.
Shelby Gallien