AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on September 02, 2022, 08:13:24 PM
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Some of you probably know we have begun sawing our own logs to support our kit business. The quanties of high quality curly maple in the thickness we need are simply not commercially available, so we were forced to move in this direction. It's a lot of work for sure, but also a lot of fun! Here are some logs from a recent run into Northern Pennsylvania. Most of these are red maple, but there are two cherry logs as well. One cherry has some pretty nice curl.
I could go on and on about this stuff, but don't know where to start. How about if you have any quesitons, just ask!
Jim
(https://i.ibb.co/QC6rGpb/IMG-1927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7SGwQn)
(https://i.ibb.co/zmLvCH9/IMG-1929.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VLh4bpn)
(https://i.ibb.co/3Sr5nmG/IMG-1928.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GCxfqQB)
(https://i.ibb.co/41q3z19/IMG-1925.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6XMLzXV)
(https://i.ibb.co/fqX8RR0/IMG-1924.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbg5SS3)
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Keep up the Good Work Jim. I really appreciate everything you do for this hobby!!!!!!
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Good stuff Jim!!!
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I love seeing this kind of thing!
There are many giant - and I mean giant - sugar maples around here where I am, but unfortunately they are (1) difficult to access without cutting in logging roads and (2) full of century old + wire up to @ 4 ft. Oh well.
Tree hunting is a lot of fun. At least I think so.
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Yeah, this really is lots of fun. Here is some wood I just got yesterday from some Amish friends. Needless to say, I was very pleased!
(https://i.ibb.co/WttWYLr/IMG-1956.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVVMBx0)
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How are you going to dry it, air or kiln?
Tim
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A little bit of info... We generally only use sap (white) wood for gunstocks. The darker, interior heart wood is usually not suitable for stockwood and is avoided. You can see some of this darker wood in the previous photo.
This is one of the difficulties with cutting maple. You need to dodge the heart wood, but it's not always clear where it is. You can see where it is on the two ends of the log, but where it goes in the middle isn't always clear.
The lighter wood you see is some hard maple, while the wild curly other wood is red maple.
Jim
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How are you going to dry it, air or kiln?
Tim
We have been air drying it to at least 20% moisture in the board, blanking the stocks out and them completing the drying in a dehumidification kiln. The whole process takes around 5-6 months.
In the future, I would like to immediately blank out the stocks when the wood falls off the sawmill, stack in such a way that it's constrained and can't move around much, allow to dry to 20% and then finish off the stack in the kiln.
Jim
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Man, that is alot of work!!
I have several sawmills around her that I know the owners. I have been asking them for years to let me know if they see any curly maple, cherry, whatever with figure.
They basically ignor me. I try and tell them it's worth far more money than palet wood?
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Here's an interesting piece of hard maple that just came off the machine. I call this blister figure or just "bubbly" figure. Some might call it quilted I guess as well. In the log surface, this shows up as raised bumps or blisters. I've only seen it in hard maple.
(https://i.ibb.co/1ZXm0K4/IMG-8627.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tc0gwRN)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jy1BGgn/IMG-8622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJFkcHS)
(https://i.ibb.co/MNVLRJs/IMG-8614.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5c8V5J6)
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So, when we're looking for curly logs, the first thing we look for are ripples below the bark. When the bark is slipping off the log (April through about now) this is easier to identify. You can also look for areas of the log where the wood is torn or split and look for wavy grain. If it looks good on the surface, and the log is decent enough in size and the heart small enough, we saw a "cookie" off the small end of the log. This can then be broken to see how deep the curl goes in the log and to get an idea of it's amplitude or intensity.
Jim
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I wouldn't call the last pictures posted "bubbly". I would call that figured wood "Champagne", as I think it would make a top shelf stock.
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Man, that is alot of work!!
I have several sawmills around her that I know the owners. I have been asking them for years to let me know if they see any curly maple, cherry, whatever with figure.
They basically ignor me. I try and tell them it's worth far more money than palet wood?
It definitely takes the right approach. Usually $$$ and a willingness to buy in quantity helps. Also, just talking to them and developing a bit of a relationship. For us, most are interested in our business, so that helps.
So, if anyone knows of mills who process significant quantities of soft or hard maple and might be willing to work with us, please pass them on to us. We’re always trying to make contacts and develop sources.
It is sad to think about how much great curly wood gets wasted. I'd bet maybe 5% gets identified and used for something worth a @!*%.
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(https://i.ibb.co/kq9Y41f/IMG-1941.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QYCsPdR)
(https://i.ibb.co/9ys94K2/IMG-1942.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWZ6NDp)
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WOW!
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YOUSSA, YOUSSA, YOUSSSSAA! NICE STUFF!
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I know that I speak only for myself but I thank you Jim for all you do for our sport. The good Lord broke the mold after you.
"Muskrat" Mike
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Interesting stuff! So I'm curious as to what thickness you actually prefer them to be for gunstocks?
I've gotten quite a few blanks from sawmills, that it didn't seem to be an issue as far thickness, minimum about 2 3/4" and 3" at the most.
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I have a question, Jim.
What is it about the heartwood that prevents it from being suitable stock wood?
Does that apply to all species (walnut is my concern) or just some?
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I love beautiful wood and that bubbly wood stock is to die for. I hope who ever gets it would post pictures when its finished. Jim, thanks for all you do, and please don't give yourself a hernia lifting all of that wood.
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I have a question, Jim.
What is it about the heartwood that prevents it from being suitable stock wood?
Does that apply to all species (walnut is my concern) or just some?
I think with walnut it's the heartwood that's desirable, the lighter coloured sapwood is to be avoided. The darker heartwood in some species like ash and maple is brittle and hard to work..I'd be interested in what Jim Kibler has to say.
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I have a question, Jim.
What is it about the heartwood that prevents it from being suitable stock wood?
Does that apply to all species (walnut is my concern) or just some?
So, heart wood in maple is often quite dark. It can also be pretty light and not too different in color than sapwood, but typically it's dark and nasty looking. It has different characteristics than sapwood and often develops cracks when drying. I've also noticed it works different than sapwood. I remember carving a rifle with some heartwood and it dulled chisels quickly.
As mentioned, we try to avoid heart. Sometimes a rifle might end up having a little bit and it's not the end of the world, but we try to avoid it. On occasion, the heart will be much more similar to sapwood in appearance and workability and we will at times use this for stock wood.
Yes, in walnut and cherry we use the heart, but not generally in maple.
Jim
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Interesting stuff! So I'm curious as to what thickness you actually prefer them to be for gunstocks?
I've gotten quite a few blanks from sawmills, that it didn't seem to be an issue as far thickness, minimum about 2 3/4" and 3" at the most.
We need 2 3/8" for our Colonial rifle kits. With this the case we typically saw to around 2 5/8"-2 3/4" to allow for shrinkage when the wood dries. You can get just about any rifle style out of a 2 3/8" blank. Thin blanks seem to scare some people, but they're usually not much of a problem. I like that it makes the wood go further.
Jim
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I know that I speak only for myself but I thank you Jim for all you do for our sport. The good Lord broke the mold after you.
"Muskrat" Mike
Thanks. Doing something good for the growth and progression of this culture is a nice thing, but at the same time, we're just working hard to just run a successful and profitable business. We have around 14 employees that depend on us for their living, so this certainly keeps us focused.
On a personal note, it's great to be able to make some changes and push the boundaries with these longrifles. I guess it's really kind of a challenge and game for me. Speaking of improvements, we've begun making production stocks for the Woodsrunner kits on a brand new 6 axis machining center. The improvements from new processes and this machine are astounding. I believe we are going to be able to provide stocks where zero wood is going to be required in fitting parts. Litterally, the kits should just be able to be pinned and screwed together. We're also working on trying to do some decorative carving on the machine. This is going to really shake things up!
Of course, not everybody has appreciated our business, but I really don't care. I enjoy what we do, we've had a lot of happy customers and brought a LOT of people into this traditional blackpowder world. Some might not like our somewhat agressive approach, but that is just our style. People would often talk about expanding the market, what to do to bring more people into this world and then not change a thing in their approaches. This goes for businesses and organizations. It's still happening at the very moment. Some don't have forsight, and I guess others are just content with the status quo.
Anyways, enough rambling have a good weekend everybody.
Jim
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My friend operates a mill, and I have spent some time helping him. Watch your fingers !
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Jim, I don’t know how you have the time to do all this with the lumber even tho it is an important aspect of your business ( providing quality kits )when you consider the rest of your venture that must also require your attention! I watched my dad when he had a auto body shop and all the juggling of responsibilities, your business looks to me, to be even more demanding. Kudos to you and your wife and your crew.
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If these logs meet your quality control I know they will be outstanding muzzleloader stocks.
Respectfully
TerryC
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I remember before he passed talking to Marty Ewing, who worked with and then took over Ron Griffey's stock business when he passed, and he worked at the one of the bigger local lumber companies. Found much of the stock wood there, he'd cruise the incoming logs during his lunch hour and tag anything good looking to set aside. Pays to have a guy like that!
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You'll never be short on firewood. :P
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Some additional photos of the wood operation.
(https://i.ibb.co/5nz20bR/IMG-1977.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQrDF0j)
A mid 1940's vintage Tannewitz 36" bandsaw. Made in Grand Rapids, Mi. Still one of the best saws ever made. Big, heavy, powerful and cuts fast.
(https://i.ibb.co/MffRFVk/IMG-1972.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwwN4Fh)
A view inside our kiln. This uses temperature and dehumidification to dry the wood. Stock are blanked out before going in the kiln. The big saw in the first picture is used for this.
(https://i.ibb.co/d0c6hH8/IMG-1969.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7W8rVH)
Yes, Mike. Lots of firewood!
(https://i.ibb.co/RSDHn8T/IMG-1968.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcKmB0v)
A view from the sawmill. The big chunk of wood is left-over heart. No good for stocks. There is often lots of waste with maple and only using white wood.
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZzBwR7C/IMG-1971.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4P3sxy)
Daisy, the new pooch.
(https://i.ibb.co/T1wc1bf/IMG-1974.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0KnqKF7)
Some wood just cut and needing to be stickered to prevent staining and allow for better drying. Already stickered wood behind.
(https://i.ibb.co/r6XtBvJ/IMG-1970.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zRt53Nw)
The kiln and Selick forklift.
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(https://i.ibb.co/5Fk6HMQ/IMG-1976.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZX3sR5)
Wood that just came out of the kiln last week. We're making Colonial kits out of it right now. A mixture of sugar and red maple.
(https://i.ibb.co/WfNttbH/IMG-1975.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qpL55tD)
Stacks of wood waiting to be blanked out.
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Curious, what dimension plank to cut 1 or 2 blanks from (I saw in one of your videos where you cut 2 blanks from 1 plank by laying them out opposite of each other, if the blank and grain direction allows it)? You mentioned 2 & 3/8 maybe 2 & 3/4 thick to allow shrinkage, but how wide and long. Also, what minimum log diameter would you look for, hoping to get a few planks from the sapwood. Sketching out I was thinking at least 15" top diameter inside bark might yield 4 planks sap and a cant of heartwood (and firewood slabs).
(P.S. watch for a nice walnut SMR blank, I plan to order end of the month.)
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I envy your age and your energy. BTW, they go hand in hand so keep that in mind. ;)
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I envy your age and your energy. BTW, they go hand in hand so keep that in mind. ;)
With any luck, I figure I have about 12-15 good strong years. After this I want to find a rocking chair that overlooks a big giant lake!
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Curious, what dimension plank to cut 1 or 2 blanks from (I saw in one of your videos where you cut 2 blanks from 1 plank by laying them out opposite of each other, if the blank and grain direction allows it)? You mentioned 2 & 3/8 maybe 2 & 3/4 thick to allow shrinkage, but how wide and long. Also, what minimum log diameter would you look for, hoping to get a few planks from the sapwood. Sketching out I was thinking at least 15" top diameter inside bark might yield 4 planks sap and a cant of heartwood (and firewood slabs).
(P.S. watch for a nice walnut SMR blank, I plan to order end of the month.)
I’ll put something together talking about this soon. Great question!
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Jim what do you do with your waste wood? In the one picture of waste I see what could be made into decent maple board for carpentry work. I realize its a lot of extra work for little gain but for someone like me that occasionally makes furniture pieces and doesn't mind the extra labor that looks like a great source for maple boards.
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Or your other body parts. I have a photo of my grandfather as a young man, hanging in my shop. The story goes he lost his lower arm working in the mill. Died four days later. This would have been in the early 1900’s
Keep up the good work Jim. Enjoy your videos.
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I notice that you blank your stocks before kiln drying. Keep your schedules to the conservative side, to avoid excessive movement or warping. I used to have a couple ebac dehu kilns and theyre capable of doing excellent work.
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We just harvested 75,000 bf of maple. Amish loggers with two teams of horses.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/RCz3Cq3/301189748-5384990211586783-4326831320032360413-n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/j8j54NT/301786583-5384989324920205-1315817501896150273-n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Ya gotta love watching those big horse's work!
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Ya gotta love watching those big horse's work!
I was thinking the exact same thing. I'd pay to sit in the shade, sipping cold iced tea, watching those teams work.
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We just harvested 75,000 bf of maple. Amish loggers with two teams of horses.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/RCz3Cq3/301189748-5384990211586783-4326831320032360413-n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/j8j54NT/301786583-5384989324920205-1315817501896150273-n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Really cool. I'd be checking these logs for curl. I'll bet there are at least a handful. Look for a rippled surface below the bark or wavy grain where the log is split or torn somewhere. Beware that there may be curl at the butt, though not further up the log. If the log looks promising, take a cookie off the end and break it to see how deep it goes.
Neat stuff for sure!
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I notice that you blank your stocks before kiln drying. Keep your schedules to the conservative side, to avoid excessive movement or warping. I used to have a couple ebac dehu kilns and theyre capable of doing excellent work.
Yeah, we've not been pushing it. One good thing is that blanked wood has a lot of surface area to volume ratio, so the drying is easier and less traumatic on the wood.
Jim
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Jim what do you do with your waste wood? In the one picture of waste I see what could be made into decent maple board for carpentry work. I realize its a lot of extra work for little gain but for someone like me that occasionally makes furniture pieces and doesn't mind the extra labor that looks like a great source for maple boards.
I'm going to try to save some that will work for other purposes. If I can get white wood on one face it can be used for furniture work. It's just getting things set-up and in the habit to make this happen. We do generate lots of scraps when cutting blanks as well.
Jim
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Perhaps, if the planets align , there may be a Kibler pistol in the future ??
That would help with your efficient use of wood ;D
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" Ya gotta love watching those big horse's work!"
"I was thinking the exact same thing. I'd pay to sit in the shade, sipping cold iced tea, watching those teams work."
I've stood in the cold to watch. Also wondering how much $$$ to separate the 'Skinner' from his hat.
Cheers,
R
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Thanks Jim for posting these Pics, so fun for us wood aficionados! And, it is fun to watch the Amish maneuvering logs out of the woods. The horses don't require the width of a conventional skidder or leave much destruction in their wake. In Ohio, they still are in use for their practicality.
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Thanks for sharing another part of your process for making your rifles.
Question: once you cut the boards (or the rifle blanks) do you seal the ends with anything and if so, what is it? My hobby is wood bowl turning and I get all my wood as firewood and have been looking at using a sealer of sorts to prevent cracks in the bowl blanks once I get them roughed out.
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We have 2 companies here who do horse logging. they specialize in selective cutting that doesn't require other trees to be cut down to get the logs out.
Neither are Amish though we have a community of them nearby. One does specialize in cabinetry and furniture building. They are making us 4 kitchen chairs to go with our oak kitchen table.
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Thanks for sharing another part of your process for making your rifles.
Question: once you cut the boards (or the rifle blanks) do you seal the ends with anything and if so, what is it? My hobby is wood bowl turning and I get all my wood as firewood and have been looking at using a sealer of sorts to prevent cracks in the bowl blanks once I get them roughed out.
We immediately seal the end grain of the stock blanks with Anchorseal. It is a wax based product that seems to do a pretty good job. Cracks can develop in less than an hour if they aren't sealed.
I've also used wood glue smeared on the ends and it seems to do a decent job.
Jim