AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Eric Kettenburg on October 04, 2022, 07:04:42 PM
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Am I crazy or dd the thread vanish?
Anyway since the subject was broached, is there documentation of Heinnerich Fessler being in Lancaster? I'm not up on all the Lancaster research via tax lists, church records etc. so I'd certainly be interested to know. I am aware of the Henrich Fesler that arrived in 1733, and Dave M (who I believe was the author of the now-vanished posting) had quite a while back found an interesting reference in online records of Baden-Wurttemburg which were posted online but now do not seem to exist. There was a record of an action taken by Christpher Schaller (sp?) in Wertheim against a 'Heinrich Fesler buchsenmacher' sometime in the early 18th century - unfotunately I can't seem to access the record anymore but I believe it was maybe ca. 1710-1720 or so, so he could either be the same guy who arived in 1733 or maybe he had a son who also was trained in gunstocking? Maybe Dave can find it again - the old link to the records no longer works.
So do we know fr certain there was a Johan Heinrich Fesler of some spelling in Lancaster for certain? The musician rifle lock is signed with the "I" for the J in Johan before the Heinerrich Fesler signature but the "I" is hidden under the cock when it is at rest. I'm going to assume that by placing him in Lancaster, the author of the book has some concrete period documentation?
I'm sure he was probably signing his work "John" right? So I'd assume that's the signature on the barrel. John Fesler. 8)
About the Rock Ford rifle, it's certainly got what we would expect of the right architecture for an early Dickert-style or Lancaster-style rifle, maybe pre-War, although the attribution to "ca. 1770" seems a bit early to my mind for a fully developed daisy box with side plates. Maybe the box is a replacement for a wood lid? I don;t know, but I don;t think anyone has ever proposed that the 4-piece daisy box was fully developed by "ca. 1770."
I'm guessing the thread for some reason was yanked because of the photos? So no photos. Let's not anger the photo gods.
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Are you crazy? Hmmm. I am! Depends on who you ask.
Did the Fessler pix disappear? Yes.
Do we know why? The moderators don’t know why.
When I glanced at the photos we saw yesterday of the rifle purported to be by Fessler or Fessler the lines immediately reminded me of a plain Lancaster rifle Shumway showed in his Longrifles of Note series in Muzzle Blasts. August 1982. It shows a nearly indecipherable signature. Shumway speculated the first name was Philip. I believe this is the rifle we are discussing. If anyone wants pix I will photograph the article.
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Yep I'd like to see that.
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Me also, the ranch in California I was raised on was purchased by my parents from a couple named Fessler. I always assumed they were recent immigrants, but maybe not. Parts of the Fessler clan might have moved West, just like parts of my clan did. It would be cool to find out the Fessler’s were originally gunsmiths.
Hungry Horse
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PMs sent.
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Are you crazy? Hmmm. I am! Depends on who you ask.
Did the Fessler pix disappear? Yes.
Do we know why? The moderators don’t know why.
When I glanced at the photos we saw yesterday of the rifle purported to be by Fessler or Fessler the lines immediately reminded me of a plain Lancaster rifle Shumway showed in his Longrifles of Note series in Muzzle Blasts. August 1982. It shows a nearly indecipherable signature. Shumway speculated the first name was Philip. I believe this is the rifle we are discussing. If anyone wants pix I will photograph the article.
Rich, I would be interested in seeing those pictures as well.
Kent
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About the Rock Ford rifle, it's certainly got what we would expect of the right architecture for an early Dickert-style or Lancaster-style rifle, maybe pre-War, although the attribution to "ca. 1770" seems a bit early to my mind for a fully developed daisy box with side plates. Maybe the box is a replacement for a wood lid? I don;t know, but I don;t think anyone has ever proposed that the 4-piece daisy box was fully developed by "ca. 1770."
Okay Eric, you have me a little confused, which has been a normal state of mind for me since taking an interest in longrifles.
How would you date the Dickert rifle on pgs 104-105, having a Lancaster type patchbox?
I'm not trying to put you "on the spot" but just looking for a reference point for dating these Lancaster rifles.
Thanks,
Kent
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Sorry guys, yea was not sure if we are supposed to share or not. No one told me to remove them so here they are. Unfortunately I did not get any of the cheek side.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gt4zN0c/D83601-BC-5-E12-4-FB3-8524-FEC9-FBAC83-DF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X3rcMbS)
(https://i.ibb.co/nPqV1VZ/1385-F9-F1-C412-4-C5-E-B1-F1-57-D9738-D8-BA4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hYxndnh)
(https://i.ibb.co/JBF2P2m/D9-B553-CC-CEC7-42-C8-8-B09-A3-D3507-E3884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HFpYQYB)
(https://i.ibb.co/4sQHK81/12-FDC232-2538-49-C0-9-E9-C-7-E358-C3941-D9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pWmSbfh)
(https://i.ibb.co/tC9mb9k/44936917-4-C2-A-4-D78-98-A7-F63-B49-D259-C8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JxDfx8)
(https://i.ibb.co/6R9Cx2v/D6-A57549-55-D0-4300-9-D81-EAF13-B196557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DDc2yNG)
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Another more general note about this one - I believe some have said british locks like this one were imported only before the revolution, but then no british imports after the war started till the mid 1790’s?? And by the mid 90’s british locks were a different style with the flat face, slashed tail. Or was this type of lock also imported and used on american rifles right after the war in the 1780’s?
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I don't have the book as I have seen most of the rifles involved and have photos of my own of a good number of them. I'm not sure which Dickert rifle to which you are referring. FWIW, I still believe that a couple of the Dickert rifles that George illustrated in RCA are probably the earliest extant, and I do bleive that the boxes on those with the more 'tulip' simple finial were probably his initial brass boxes of the early to mid 1770s.
Peersonally - and it's just my personal opinion which I will clearly state as opinion - I do not believe a fully formed 4 piece daisy box was developed until after the War.
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Is this the dickert referred to? I took these photos at Rock Ford
(https://i.ibb.co/9v380N4/2-AF5-DA3-F-7-C31-4-EDD-8-B16-091248-FEEAC9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTqvGk0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hhwkf6C/0-FEC6630-7-A7-B-4397-86-E4-11-F4-FD85-EF8-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cYf7S0w)
(https://i.ibb.co/xLwFJ3N/2-D159-BD1-A7-A4-4241-A29-D-0365-E39-E3773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nm4PzRF)
(https://i.ibb.co/qDgKhf9/569-F8-D90-2191-4928-8660-1-B391-FA0-F4-CB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0n9T1SZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/0QqBDyT/D946-C208-E474-4-C5-C-A5-CF-7161-BD3960-B6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJNQswb)
(https://i.ibb.co/nnvngpf/CB17-B55-A-738-F-4147-A695-C9-AA6-BF0-FC28.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YGYmkM)
(https://i.ibb.co/xJnbSbD/A037-E44-B-E8-C8-4141-9-E58-BF78-F581-C61-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SRkgXgP)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)
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I don't have the book as I have seen most of the rifles involved and have photos of my own of a good number of them. I'm not sure which Dickert rifle to which you are referring.
Sorry about that Eric. Told you I am confused. :)
The Dickert rifle I am refering to appears on pgs 18-19 of Pat Hornberger's 2015 book The Lancaster Long Rifle as well as pgs 104-105 0f this new book. Hopefully you have Pat's book.
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Is this the dickert referred to? I took these photos at Rock Ford
That's it, thanks Dave!
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Peersonally - and it's just my personal opinion which I will clearly state as opinion - I do not believe a fully formed 4 piece daisy box was developed until after the War.
Thanks Eric, appreciate your thoughts and insight.
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Peersonally - and it's just my personal opinion which I will clearly state as opinion - I do not believe a fully formed 4 piece daisy box was developed until after the War.
Shumway was not 100% certain the patchbox was first work.
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Yes George sure tiptoed around the box on that rifle very politely! Thanks for the article. I see at the time he said the signature was indecipherable. It still looks indecipherable to me but that's just a photo. Possibly someone in-hand can get a better read on it. It does look like a good early 'utilitarian' rifle and I'd personally have no problem with the 'ca. 1770' dating if it had a wood box or even some form of more prototypical brass box. But I just don't buy that daisy box being that early.
For the record I don't view the above Dickert rifle is pre-dating the War either. Again, just my opinion. I would date it to the years following.
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Don't mean to interrupt but Gun # 18 is an early beauty! Is there a name attached to it as to who the maker is?
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Don't mean to interrupt but Gun # 18 is an early beauty! Is there a name attached to it as to who the maker is?
Yes it’s #52 in Shumway’s Rifles of Colonial America. Everything we want to see in a gun we think could be pre-1770. Big .64 smoothbore. Could be contemporary with the early Oerter rifles. I think there’s a lot of guessing involved in the big early guns. A gun could be 1750 or 1770 and maybe look about the same if it has a wooden box and big fat buttplate.
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I agree. That #18 got my attention straight away.
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Hi,
RCA 52 is one of my favorite guns and inspired this one I built.
(https://i.ibb.co/HgYkNV7/star-of-bethlehem-redone-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4NM5s7W)
(https://i.ibb.co/0hZ8N8Y/star-of-bethlehem-redone-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qk9XGXm)
(https://i.ibb.co/MnrmXDd/star-of-bethlehem-redone-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qTxwj5)
(https://i.ibb.co/5n6tv9Z/star-of-bethlehem-redone-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KLXR7Gn)
(https://i.ibb.co/d06XykN/star-of-bethlehem-redone-10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5v4FVj)
(https://i.ibb.co/G5bgMdv/star-of-bethlehem-redone-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sVML1gv)
(https://i.ibb.co/J7LWbB3/star-of-bethlehem-redone-13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NjhgkVT)
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Here are a few other shots of RCA 52 #18
(https://i.ibb.co/HhJB4dF/1338-B3-CB-370-C-4-C7-E-B8-D4-1657607824-F8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLdQKXm)
(https://i.ibb.co/zGL9VNz/DDCCDA01-F055-447-E-9-BF8-92-C4-DCCB533-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SR1YwJz)
(https://i.ibb.co/0cV6TKL/C168-D291-720-E-4733-885-F-BD1-ECEFE2618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zrHBpFg)
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Back to the Fessler topic. I’m thinking that people want to know if this gun was made by the maker of the Musician’s rifle.
I guess both could have been made by the same maker. The Lancaster Andreas Albrecht rifle is quite different from guns from Christians Spring where Albrecht served, as an example.
On the current rifle on display attributed to a Fessler, the barrel is 15/16” at the breech and .46 caliber. Somewhat small compared to a number of rifles proposed to be pre-Revolutionary War.
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Relative to the Musician's rifle, I can find a group of photos on line but each is of only a small section of the rifle. Is there a group of photos extant that shows the complete rifle?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94428970@N02/albums/72157633106158428
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Relative to the Musician's rifle, I can find a group of photos on line but each is of only a small section of the rifle. Is there a group of photos extant that shows the complete rifle?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94428970@N02/albums/72157633106158428
I’ve heard it’s closely held by a family which has possessed it for quite a long time. Small black and white photos of it were included in Muzzle Blasts articles by Wallace Gusler; never focusing solely on this gun but to illustrate features found on early rifles. MB January 2003, MB May 2003, MB March 2005, MB July 2005 (lock side full buttstock). There are no published full length photos SFAIK.
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Relative to the Musician's rifle, I can find a group of photos on line but each is of only a small section of the rifle. Is there a group of photos extant that shows the complete rifle?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94428970@N02/albums/72157633106158428
I’ve heard it’s closely held by a family which has possessed it for quite a long time. Small black and white photos of it were included in Muzzle Blasts articles by Wallace Gusler; never focusing solely on this gun but to illustrate features found on early rifles. MB January 2003, MB May 2003, MB March 2005, MB July 2005 (lock side full buttstock). There are no published full length photos SFAIK.
Well, who the heck is Mark Tyler who posted those photos online? Are those photos of The Fesler Rifle or of another Fesler rifle?
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Relative to the Musician's rifle, I can find a group of photos on line but each is of only a small section of the rifle. Is there a group of photos extant that shows the complete rifle?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94428970@N02/albums/72157633106158428
I’ve heard it’s closely held by a family which has possessed it for quite a long time. Small black and white photos of it were included in Muzzle Blasts articles by Wallace Gusler; never focusing solely on this gun but to illustrate features found on early rifles. MB January 2003, MB May 2003, MB March 2005, MB July 2005 (lock side full buttstock). There are no published full length photos SFAIK.
Well, who the heck is Mark Tyler who posted those photos online? Are those photos of The Fesler Rifle or of another Fesler rifle?
There is an impressive early Germanic-styles rifle known as the Musician’s rifle which I refer to above. The lock is signed Fesler. Estimates on when it was made run from 1755-65. It could be by an American named Fesler but signing a lock here is rare. Normally signatures are on the barrel. However there is a lock only signed A Albrecht so there is a precedent.
Then there is the rifle in the Rock Ford exhibit with a barrel signature reported as Fessler. It appears to be a somewhat later gun and entirely of Lancaster or York styling.
The story of Fesler or Fessler gunsmith (or both if they are 2 different people) is currently unknown.
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There is an impressive early Germanic-styles rifle known as the Musician’s rifle which I refer to above. The lock is signed Fesler. Estimates on when it was made run from 1755-65. It could be by an American named Fesler but signing a lock here is rare. Normally signatures are on the barrel. However there is a lock only signed A Albrecht so there is a precedent.
Then there is the rifle in the Rock Ford exhibit with a barrel signature reported as Fessler. It appears to be a somewhat later gun and entirely of Lancaster or York styling.
The story of Fesler or Fessler gunsmith (or both if they are 2 different people) is currently unknown.
Thanks Rich for the info.
The link I posted above to the Mark Tyler photos of the Musician Rifle does have a photo of the signed Fesler lock.
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Hi,
The engraving on the Musicians' rifle is so much better than any I've seen on 18th century American guns. Just the motif of well drawn humans is a stand out. Even Paul Revere could not draw humans anywhere near that well. Does anyone think those engraved components were made in Europe?
dave
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Those photos are mine which were given to me many years ago by someone who wishes to remain anonymous; I posted a few of them here accidentally, then said "sc**w it" and posted all of them that I have. They may still be present in an old thread here going back maybe 10+ years. I'm sure a number of people have grabbed them off this site.
At the time the photos were taken, the rifle was privately owned by a family in Lititz I believe who had owned it for probably 100 years or more. I was told that one family member used to pop it off every July 4th! At this point I believe it is owned by PA Museum commission or some similar organization.
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To me, the carving on the musician’s rifle looks as sophisticated as the engraving in its design. And the carving behind the tang has crossed scrolls, which is a repeated design in the engraving on the buttplate tang. All that to say it looks to me like a rifle made here, by someone trained in / recently from europe. Also I can’t recall seeing a european rifle with a brass box?
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From an artistic standpoint, in my opinion, the rifle Eric photographed looks much more sophisticated than the supposed Fesler rifle at Rock Ford. The lock markings on the Eric photographed rifle are remarkable.
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To me, the carving on the musician’s rifle looks as sophisticated as the engraving in its design. And the carving behind the tang has crossed scrolls, which is a repeated design in the engraving on the buttplate tang. All that to say it looks to me like a rifle made here, by someone trained in / recently from europe. Also I can’t recall seeing a european rifle with a brass box?
Hi Dave,
In Europe the same man who made and carved the gun is not the same man who engraved the mounts. Are you saying that some immigrant from Europe made the rifle and engraved the brass?
dave
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From an artistic standpoint, in my opinion, the rifle Eric photographed looks much more sophisticated than the supposed Fesler rifle at Rock Ford. The lock markings on the Eric photographed rifle are remarkable.
The number of early guns “stocked here” that have sophisticated engraving and carving is small indeed. For me it remains a mystery, as to whether the mounts were engraved here or in Europe. It would certainly take a special customer to want and pay for such work. It’s also possible that the mounts were engraved here by a professional engraver who did not stock the gun. (See Dave’s comments above). If the Musician’s rifle was stocked in Philadelphia, for example there would be silversmiths and jewelers who could be engaged. Many decades later J&S Hawken “farmed out” engraving on fancy rifles like the Atcheson (spell?) rifle. All speculation.
It seems evident that some makers who worked up to and into the Revolutionary War period made sophisticated and plain rifles for different customers. Dickert is such an example.
So many possibilities and only 2 rifles proposed to be related, with no gunsmith documented.
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Hey dave,
Yes my thought is that Fessler was a professional in europe and immigrated here, and made the rifle here with maple to his usual europe skill level. But as others stated, it is all speculation! What aspects do you feel shows the carving and engraving are by different men? You may well be right but the entire gun looks to me as a high quality of design and execution.
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Dave, I meant to say also - my impression is that the box itself is american and not european. And that would support the notion it was engraved here.
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Hi Dave,
I cannot say if there are any style differences between the engraving and carving just that typically engravers of firearms were not the same people who stocked guns in Europe. The key for me are the human figures on the box. They are very well drawn and shaded. A feature to me that often identifies the skill level of an engraver are how they do hands and faces. The musicians are holding instruments and the hand positions and shaping are excellent. The engraver was a master for that period. The carving and engraving certainly look Germanic. Fessler, if he did do the work, must have been an all round master gun maker. The quality of the simpler gun in the Rock Ford exhibit does not look to be of the same quality regardless that it is plainer.
dave
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It looks as though, judging by Eric's photo of the bottom of the muzzle, that the missing nose cap was mounted using a screw directly into the bottom flat of the barrel.
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It looks as though, judging by Eric's photo of the bottom of the muzzle, that the missing nose cap was mounted using a screw directly into the bottom flat of the barrel.
Yes, Wallace Gusler highlighted that in one of his articles.
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Just to reiterate the question: regardless of whether the signature on the rock ford rifle is that of Heinrich Fesler or not, **what** is the evidence placing him in Lancaster (either Boro or county)? Is this rifle essentially the 'evidence?'
I would think someone here has extensively researched Lancaster and would know if he has turned up in a deed, an assessment, a church record etc.
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Just to reiterate the question: regardless of whether the signature on the rock ford rifle is that of Heinrich Fesler or not, **what** is the evidence placing him in Lancaster (either Boro or county)? Is this rifle essentially the 'evidence?'
I would think someone here has extensively researched Lancaster and would know if he has turned up in a deed, an assessment, a church record etc.
Eric,
Very obviously, you have seen and handled the carved and engraved Fesler rifle (now in the possession of the Pa. Museum Commision) in its entirety, can you put a county or school on it relative to the rifle's physical construction? The sideplate is certainly not Lancasterish.
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Lancaster to York is just a guess on the rifle with the signature on the barrel, shown at Rock Ford. Only based on architecture AND the daisy patchbox, which as mentioned above, Shumway wasn’t 100% sure was first work.
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I'm not sure that anything other than the box might suggest the Lancaster region. Everything else looks pretty generic to me. I also find the spear point tang to be pretty odd for the Lancaster region.
Jim
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In regard to the musician rifle, it is too early and too European (imho) to point toward any area of the colonies. I'd say it frankly could have been made anywhere a German-trained gunstocker settled.
The rifle at rock ford as best I can tell is being placed as a Lancaster gun because (1) it has a straight 'triangular' stock and (2) the daisy box. I think the 1770 dating is silly IF that box is first work. Not much more to say.
I'd love to see a very clear tracing of the signature remnant and then try to "fill in the blanks." Believably, without stretching credibility. Maybe it can be done, maybe it can't. Other than the purported interpretation of the signature and a non-step stock, I see absolutely nothing about the rock ford gun that relates to the musician rifle.
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I'm hoping to get some input on the attribution of the rifle on pages 38-39 to John William Groff.
Perhaps John Kolar would be so kind as to express himself on this Forum as to his attribution to that particular rifle stocker. It is a great looking rifle in my novice opinion. I'm quite sure that John knows infinitely more than I on subjects related to these rifles and I hope to benefit from his input.
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In regard to the musician rifle, it is too early and too European (imho) to point toward any area of the colonies. I'd say it frankly could have been made anywhere a German-trained gunstocker settled.
Thanks Eric for your analysis.