AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Mattox Forge on February 10, 2023, 03:20:14 AM
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The rifle I bought in Holts November auction arrived today. This is my first full stock English rifle. I cannot find any information on J Pendrill in any of my English gunmaker listings. I am guessing this was built in the 1760's.
The bore is in good shape and the lock is a nice sparker. This is the first English gun I have seen with thin sheet brass ramrod pipes with formed ribs as opposed to thick sheet with filed in ribs or cast. The tail pipe is essentially a regular pipe with a tail brazed on to it. The proof marks are private proofs I assume. They are not London proofs as the Holts listing states. The lock is exactly the same size as the Chambers English Fowler lock.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/k5GD6Vr/20230209-171812.jpg) (https://ibb.co/170XJYp)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Wf748W/20230209-171226.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yy9LSGy)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nx9j22M/20230209-171307.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K62qxxJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/MDfjYcm/20230209-171405.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRcnPBS)
(https://i.ibb.co/K29Pgbk/20230209-171417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bsr0VQZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/bQwCSsn/20230209-171446.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbZ2L97)
(https://i.ibb.co/ynKQ0KH/20230209-171454.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DG7MG1)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsVrfrY/20230209-171554.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3C2SDSx)
(https://i.ibb.co/C0rXz5W/20230209-171630.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ys3MXnV)
(https://i.ibb.co/2nZ03py/20230209-171644.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SsfDwZP)
(https://i.ibb.co/BwxHbDM/20230209-171708.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HXsL6v8)
(https://i.ibb.co/LRfx0c7/20230209-172207.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6w5HyTC)
(https://i.ibb.co/6mzTPzt/20230209-173317.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1L1Pq1X)
(https://i.ibb.co/LZs8T0K/20230209-173413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/710X3Sh)
(https://i.ibb.co/WBj5qHs/20230209-173620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9ySgzpG)
(https://i.ibb.co/7yZs6rY/20230209-173817.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BsQ0STz)
(https://i.ibb.co/nfDLN6s/20230209-173856.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7VG1djJ)
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Mike,
I believe the "V" & "P" proof marks are private Birmingham proofs. Looks like that barrel has pretty deep rifling.
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Nice. I like English rifles. Can you share bore size and length? Thanks for posting.
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Sorry I forgot to put the barrel specs up. The barrel bore is .635", the rifling diameter is .665", and the twist is 1/2 turn in 35.3125 inches, or 1:70.625. The barrel is 36 inches to face of false breech.
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Thanks for sharing these pictures. That's a nice length on that barrel. I have seen another by this fellow and it also had a 36" barrel if i remember correctly.
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Any chance this could be a re-stock? There are some odd characteristics to the stocking, at least when compared to typical fowling pieces of the period.
Thanks for posting.
Jim
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Jim,
That might be possible. There is a lot of obvious late repair work done to the stock. There are small wood replacments to the barrel channel sides. The finish is probably recent. I don't think it's a total restocking, but it is most likely the victim of a major refurbishment as is wont to happen in the UK. What in particular were you looking at?
Mike
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Thanks for the specs on the barrel Mike. Of intrest to me it looks as though the cross section of the lock panels flair out at the rear instead of the front as I have seen on a little later English guns. Or maybe I'm seeing things. :-\ :-\
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Glendinning(1951) lists an I. Pendrill c.1740 but doesn't give a location. I notice the frizzen has had a new face brazed on so it's been well used.
The lock has the earlier long sear spring. Have you any photos of the internals, for interest?
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Hi,
Very nice rifle and so rare a find! Based on the lock and other hardware, I would guess it was made well before 1750. Sheet metal pipes were not uncommon nor 2-piece rear pipes. Sometimes the rear pipe would be sheet metal but the tang was cast. I suspect your rear pipe was repaired at some point because it is rather crudely soldered. I also wonder if it was restocked. The moldings around the lock are fairly wide, typical of a later date and the comb transition to the wrist is not well defined. Is there a front sight?
dave
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Here are the lock photos. I added a comparison to a Chambers lock. The frizzen has been refaced. It has two plugs drilled all the way through the original steel.
Good eye, Smylee! The stock side panels are 1.960 at the rear and 1.860 at the front.
The front sight is inset with a tiny little "spider" type setting.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/7kjnsYD/20230210-075340.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xFX1xCb)
(https://i.ibb.co/TgQWRhc/20230210-075159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qrHJ91B)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VCLRjm/20230210-075550.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YLJSBtR)
(https://i.ibb.co/V90QBP5/20230210-082429.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CxRy6L)
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The stocking made me question restocking based on the general architecture and carving. As mentioned, the lock and side plate panel shaping is not typical of English work of the period. The forestock looks heavy as compared to typical fowling pieces (from view at muzzle). I also find it odd that the stock extends flush with the end of the barrel. The carving in some ways looks okay, but in other ways, it makes me question it. The moldings that define the lock and sideplate panels are larger than I would expect. Some of the curves on the tang carving are a little bit clunky as well (carved lines near barrel). Overall, there is just a feeling that it lacks the refinement you would expect on such a piece. Might be the case or might not...
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It is definitely heavier is section and in actual weight than the later English guns I have handled. It is more like some of the German pieces I have handled of the same period (ca 1750) in both workmanship and overall finish, not quite as nice as a London gun. The fit up and finish is more like a well made Brown Bess than a London or even later Birmingham commercial arm. I attribute that to the provincial nature of its origin. The lock is top quality, and the barrel is well made if not somewhat crude when compared to a later piece. I think that we are seeing what Col Hawker was talking about when he discussed the relative merits of the Birmingham trade vs the London trade. Birmingham individual parts were fine, but the Birmingham workmen lacked the finesse of the London makers when it came to final fit and finish, and perhaps even design. Incidentally, the ca 1760 Pendrills I found reference to were from Wolverhampton.
Mike
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I don't know, I've been away from the English guns for a while, but I don't think there was a big drop off of architecture and carving on Provincial guns from this period. Perhaps a little in terms of how finely something was finished, but seems to me they generally followed a similar pattern.
Hopefully James Rogers will chime in. He'll be much better at discussing this.
Jim
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Good discussions on this intersting rifle.
The rifling twist rate of 1:70 surprises me. I have understood that English and Contenintal twist rates in the 18th and early 19th centuries tended to be considerably faster than American rates. Few American longrifle twist rates measured carefully by me are as slow as one turn in 70”. I am interested in responders' thoughts.
Bill Paton
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Bill,
I did a quick and dirty measurement by pulling a tight patch with a ball-bearing handled cleaning rod. I'd be interested in learning other methods of measuring rifling rates.
Mike
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This gives a good indication of the stock architecture you would expect https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/3/gun-of-the-day-pendrill-breechloader
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The outside of the barrel is heavily pitted (but over-cleaned and bright), and the rifling looks dark (rough/pitted), but the crowning seems very bright and clean. Maybe it's just the way the light reflects of of it in the photo, but it looks like it was re-crowned.
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It does appear to be re-crowed to me as well.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Those are private Birmingham proofs. You can see examples in Blackmore's "British Military Firearms" appendix D. Wolverhampton is right next to Birmingham and home to many gun lock and barrel makers.
dave
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Beautiful piece Mike. Love that English wrought iron! Do you plan to shoot it?
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Dan,
Thanks. Yes I do plan on shooting it. The bore is in excellent shape, and the lock is a great sparker with excellent springs.
Mike
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Wow what a great Bear Gun that would be. ;D
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Further examination of the stock indicates that the gun has been restocked. The big clue was the extra holes in the ramrod pipes. Hard to land in the original holes. Good news and bad news. Bad news it has been restocked. Good news is that I get to continue the restoration and make the stock look right. Fortunately the restocker left a lot of extra wood, so the finer details can be corrected. The horrible lacquer stained finish is not original, I am relieved to find out. The metal work is very consistent with and in great shape. Thanks to Niall for posting the link to the NRA museum's Pendrill rifle. The lock, side plate, and trigger guard are all very similar to mine. The rear sight is almost identical.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/tmR555L/00085-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BzkRRRn)
(https://i.ibb.co/PmJkHpH/00085-d4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p0NqFDF)
(https://i.ibb.co/crNDKdq/00085-l.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HHrnLQZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/jR4Gv4G/00085-r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xH5GS5G)
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Mike,
I sent you a PM about issues surrounging rifling twist measurements.
Bill Paton
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Hi Mike,
You acquired it from Holts, a European auction house. I wonder if it was restocked in Europe, not the UK. That might explain some of the odd architecture and decoration. I saw that the auction house dated it 1775, which is absurd. The restock might have been then but not the original rifle.
dave
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I suppose Holts might collect stuff from all over Europe, so I suppose it's possible it was reworked in Italy or Germany or some other European country. I think it was done more recently than 1775 though. Does the wood work look Continental to you?
I found another example of a Pendrill built gun aside from the NRA breech loader. The stock was carved very much like the one in the NRA collection. The carving is very similar in design to the carving on this stock. The carving one this gun's stock is not as well executed in the carving details and all of the details are slightly larger in form than the two I found photos of, which are presumably original stocks. Both "original" guns do not have the front lodes nor the lining under the lock panels, more in keeping with other 1740-50 vintage guns I have looked at photos of.
Mike
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Mike,
I think it is a wonderful rifle and a wonderful project.
You have some room to play to make more fitting.
Re Holts and a possible Continental stock,
Two things;
First, there was plenty of time for this gun to go to Europe and be later "liberated",
also,
A provincial gunmaker or even the village carpenter (Like Col. Hawker's "Keel" or "Kreel" was it?) could make a fully serviceable stock without it
being exactly what we now think it should look like.
I have an old John Twigg, converted to percussion and re-stocked with apparently the original hardware.
It's a good job, but cannot be original.
So much happened to so many old arms, that figuring what and when can be difficult to determine.
Can I ask if the trigger is off-set to the right?
As Dave says, sheet pipes are quite common at this earlier age.
The lock is near identical to one I have on a pistol by Lowe, and likely from the later 1740's.
Congrats on it finding you!
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Hi,
Here is an example (on the left) of a sheet metal rear pipe with separate soldered cast tang. It is silver and from a high end gun by Heylin from the late 1760s. Note that the pipe is not together just pinched together in the stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/CtCp490/Kibler-and-Heylin-guns-rear-thimbles-inside-view.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DbcPmMK)
(https://i.ibb.co/1qwtbxx/Kibler-and-Heylin-guns-rear-thimbles.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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I don't think soldering tabs together was a period practice at all. Not just on English guns.
Jim
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Thank you all for the continued comments.
I have been comparing my rifle to photos of two other Pendrill built guns I found photos of on the internet. The first is a breechloader in the NRA Museum, the other a fowler sold out of Canada posted on Guns International. I would say that both are undoubtedly by made by the same gunmaker that made the metal parts for my rifle. I think that the stock of my rifle is based on the original as the overall stock architecture of my gun follows similar lines to the NRA gun. The details, are obviously different, particularly in the execution. I am unsure of the period of the restocking, but I tend to believe it was done recently based on the condition of the holes in the brasswork, those wtill being bright, and undimmed by tarnish.
NRA Museum rifle
(https://i.ibb.co/bW6ZJys/Screenshot-2023-02-13-at-15-23-19-NRA-Museums.png) (https://ibb.co/xC20Hc1)
Guns International fowler
(https://i.ibb.co/wWXpSMj/100417058-58823-46132-D78-B9-C68121.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9TLybsS)
The engraving styles are remarkably similar on all three. Here is the buttplate for example:
NRA Museum's buttplate engraving
(https://i.ibb.co/THdjHSn/00085-d5r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6tS6Rq)
Pendrill Fowler posted on Guns International
(https://i.ibb.co/6BwGJhK/100417058-58823-4613-B92-CF23631-A4-m.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L5RBhwT)
My rifle's buttplate engraving
(https://i.ibb.co/r4G4NKC/20230213-150628.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D5D5TPx)
Regarding the tail pipe construction. I believe that the tailpipe was also constructed by Mr. Pendrill in the mid 1700's using a formed pipe, and a cast tail, as shown by Smart Dog. Comparison to the photo of the NRA museum's tailpipe shows there to be an almost identical pipe on that rifle.
NRA Museum tail pipe
(https://i.ibb.co/GMZsKgb/00085-r1c.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
enlarged
(https://i.ibb.co/QcLmQjd/00085-r1cc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YWmjQTZ)
My rifle's tail pipe
(https://i.ibb.co/0cWQYqw/20230213-152529.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dr37kBh)
More pipe details
Note the engraving style is in keeping with the butt plate, and it is in keeping with the rest of the gun. Probably done by the same engraver.
(https://i.ibb.co/yghCMYF/20230213-150549.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ss54D69)
The shiny new pin hole is evident, along with the much smaller original pin hole.
(https://i.ibb.co/vj46KBc/20230213-150749.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P6GvfYr)
(https://i.ibb.co/RNCnmMQ/20230213-150756.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qk6BRqY)
(https://i.ibb.co/LYTP6D9/20230213-150805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Nt03pgW)
The trigger is offset to the right. The left side of the slot seems to be set on the stock center-line.
(https://i.ibb.co/RbQknFx/Video-Capture-20230213-160115.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQfF9Cz)
Mike
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Just due to the stock work I had wondered about a re-stocking in the last 75 years.
This is a most interesting piece, especially being an early English rifle gun.
Rollason's Birmingham business directory dated 1781 makes reference to Pendrill perfecting rifled barrels circa 1740 (The Gunmakers of Birmingham 1660-1960, McKenna)
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Thanks for the reference James. The metal work is excellent. Pendrill's stock work seems to have been excellent as well, based on the two example I saw photos of.
Mike
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Here is another English Flintlock rifle that appears to be of a similar vintage.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/English%20Rifle.htm
It is remarkable how similar all of the brass hardware is. The tailpipe could be a twin for the one on mine, just un-engraved. Clearly the gunbuilders were procuring their fittings from suppliers. The Birmingham trade was very well established even in the 1740s and 50s.
Mike
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Here is another English Flintlock rifle that appears to be of a similar vintage.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/English%20Rifle.htm
It is remarkable how similar all of the brass hardware is. The tailpipe could be a twin for the one on mine, just un-engraved. Clearly the gunbuilders were procuring their fittings from suppliers. The Birmingham trade was very well established even in the 1740s and 50s.
Mike
I came so close to buying that rifle from Gary about 13 years ago. I think Chris Laubach had plans to produce that lock on cnc some years back.
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I wonder where it is now? It is a nice looking one.
Mike
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I think Chris ended up with it but that was some years ago so I dont really know where it is now.
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This gun was part of a pretty detailed discussion at WKU one year and I believe the consensus was that it likely started out as a fowling piece and then turned into a rifle by piecing together other parts. Now, I might not be completely accurate, but I do remember it being suspect at the very least. Both Gary and Wallace were part of this.
Jim