AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Warbike39 on March 25, 2023, 04:03:37 AM
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I am a new member to this forum and am requeesting your thoughts on this rifle I found.
Almost 30 years ago I bought an old house built in the 20s or 30s in the 4 corners of New Mexico.
I spent 2 weeks cleaning out a ton of belongings from the previous elderly lady that had lived there.
I won't drag the story out too much and bore you all but after finding a box full of invoices from the previous original owners of the house that showed them owning 3 different trading posts in the 1960s all on Indian Reservations and listing Colt revolvers, knives, pipes, artifacts and old rifles I spent the next 10 days searching the house for anything good. on day 10 I removed an old hatch from the outside of the house in the end wall and climbed into the attic with a full respirator on and after hours and hours of sifting thru old boxes of quilts and clothes I found this rifle wrapped up in a very old quilt. Along with the rifle were two old powder horns {one was large and not completed and a smaller one that was complete} I also found a plier like device for making lead balls? a small brass tin full of lead balls and a large old spoon with a pouring indention off the side, possibly for pouring melted lead. The spoon has a corn cob handle that was burned from heat.
my question is....is this a real Samuel Hawken Rifle that i found and have kept stored all these years? it is in the exact shape that i found it in, I did not wipe it, clean it, polish it or change anything on it. i just wrapped it up and stored it in a safe place. the Caliber appears to be .38 or .40 caliber. thank you for your help
I am having trouble with the photos I downloaded onto my laptop so I am goint to send them from my phone, please bear with me.
warbike39
(https://i.ibb.co/2WNyBTd/20230320-160313.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34z7Hnc)
(https://i.ibb.co/M6xtJ6Q/20230320-160518.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRPQjRs)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q6S8Hq4/20230320-160540.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2jV8MLT)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9k5H3K/20230320-160440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4NsV75)
(https://i.ibb.co/dKC5Gt7/20230320-160704.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcbSQJM)
(https://i.ibb.co/pJQKVpF/20230320-160711.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFDs4Hv)
(https://i.ibb.co/SrFN86v/20230320-160726.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ws5yXd6)
(https://i.ibb.co/7QVyCHG/20230320-160742.jpg) (https://ibb.co/42MNtcj)
(https://i.ibb.co/dBPfDTm/20230320-160633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q9PJMgD)
(https://i.ibb.co/4V3YsjJ/20230320-160831.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KrSLN9m)
(https://i.ibb.co/nDP6XzM/20230320-160823.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HrhBcnT)
(https://i.ibb.co/BgBvx3z/20230320-160700.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GVRGLpx)
(https://i.ibb.co/SrFN86v/20230320-160726.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ws5yXd6)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9k5H3K/20230320-160440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4NsV75)
(https://i.ibb.co/JK7W4wm/20230320-160503.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXqckpb)
(https://i.ibb.co/D92b62g/20230320-160610.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JvJdbJF)
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It sure looks like possibly a Hawken squirrel or sporting rifle that they made at the time. Is there a barrel stamp on it and if so could you post a picture of it. There are several examples of that type of rifle in Jim Gordon's Great Gunmakers for the Early West.
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Yes it is stamped S. HAWKEN ST LOUIS. I will download some pics now. Thanks for your patience, I'm not very good with forums.
(https://i.ibb.co/b1PC0mj/Screenshot-20230320-205123-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CBzYc8p)
(https://i.ibb.co/rMV3NKS/Screenshot-20230320-205103-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HYjC3Ls)
(https://i.ibb.co/4PyGyD4/Screenshot-20230320-205129-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GcwLw1C)
(https://i.ibb.co/YP7dqBz/Screenshot-20230323-093018-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYB0FMV)
(https://i.ibb.co/d05BV4K/20230320-160410.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jGq6yJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/SvwfBYc/20230320-160413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kc2mXbJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hq7b62Y/20230220-112047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXKwjy0)
(https://i.ibb.co/2KPgfsX/20230220-112051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jk25MyX)
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Thanks for posting and welcome to the group. I don't claim to be a Hawken expert but from what I've studied your rifle to me definitely looks like the real deal. Beautiful piece.
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Thanks Scotti, I've studied it for years and like I said, I never cleaned it, wiped it or touched it other than to look at it occasionally. My mother was from Canad and had a famous relative that was a furtrapper, Ed Nagle. He owned the Nagle Hislop fur trading Company on the Great slave lake. I've often pictured him with the rifle.
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That rifle was likely made in the mid 1850s. I'm not sure the drum and nipple are original to the rifle. Sometimes hawken rifles, especially earlier ones, would use a brazed on breech. Which that one might of had. I've not known any original Hawken to come from the Hawken shop so equipped. Not to say 100% that yours didn't but by judging from the repair work on the stock, by the breech, and the fact the lock plate recess doesn't match quite right around the drum this to me looks like a repair done sometime in it's lifetime. Either way it's a wonderful rifle. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will jump in and give their two cents worth.
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Thank you for your input. I have no pre determined idea in mind, I'm just trying to finally understand it.
A few more pics of the lock assembly? And the small powder horn, brass ball Container, measuring device and stopper that were with the rifle. There was also a larger unfinished horn, small set of plier like mold device and a large spoon for pouring lead with corn cob handle.
(https://i.ibb.co/bRSZ319/20230324-203221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wpbw3nJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/zHNmjtF/20230324-203246.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QjXJzxk)
(https://i.ibb.co/DVDYvNN/20230324-203252.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K0jDfYY)
(https://i.ibb.co/DRzHTD3/20230324-201820.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S354GXq)
(https://i.ibb.co/kSH0389/20230324-201829.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HHFYNzx)
(https://i.ibb.co/581JN9t/20230324-201848.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsD2tnX)
(https://i.ibb.co/yFkG5ny/20230324-201855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hjtvW8)
(https://i.ibb.co/N7xRVFy/20230324-201924.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DL4dV1R)
(https://i.ibb.co/NLrpk5s/20230324-201931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRC94Kd)
(https://i.ibb.co/r3WqnLS/20230324-201937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ScLHq18)
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Absolutely a wonderful find. Having some of the accouterments with the rifle makes it even more special. Thank you again for posting it all.
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My pleasure, thanks to everyone here for their knowledge and for keeping our Great History alive
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Looks like the real deal with the exception of the drum and nipple , which was a repair done long ago . I'd guess mid to late 50's to be when it was made . A very nice rifle . Do you know the barrel measurements and bore diameter ? Thanks for sharing !
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VERY NICE AND SUPER PICS---WOW--THANKS FOR POSTING
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IIRC Kenny Leonard had one or two of those " Missouri rifles or rifles for the local trade " in his vast Hawken collection. I still see one every once in awhile at local gun shows. Nice find in decent shape. Congrats to you. Thanks for posting with great photos.
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Welcome to the forum. Nice "Find".
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Unless the stamp looks like an obvious forgery, I tend to believe it at face value. The lock plate also shows pretty typical Sam Hawken era shaping at the top front. So do the lock and side panels. As has been said, there has been repair work done to it at some point.
The very first thing you should do is check to make sure it's not loaded. Seriously... it's important.
It's not a "mountain rifle". Nor is it early. It post-dates the fur trade era by at least 15 years or more. It probably went west on some settlers wagon.
I like the little brass snuff box. Super cool!
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Maybe Hawken squirrel rifle and if authentic,a rare item.Any makers name IN the lock? check and see if it is still loaded because a number of these are/I found 3 that were in a friend's antique shop.
Bob Roller
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I did check to see if it was loaded almost 30 years ago, first thing I did. I will add a few pics with a tape along side the barrel. Tough figure the bore because of the 7 sided barely inside. Also it seems to get bigger at the end of the barrel, perhaps to start a patch and ball easier?
The ramrod does not fit tight so it's not a good judge either. I also measured the balls from the brass tin that were with it.
(https://i.ibb.co/3RCPRLk/20230325-184937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bbKGb87)
(https://i.ibb.co/L9knPbx/20230325-184931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqHQyk4)
(https://i.ibb.co/qMJDn5t/20230325-185312.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3yRTszD)
(https://i.ibb.co/SKkyXmp/20230325-185129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHnTCy7)
(https://i.ibb.co/9ZQmR1w/20230325-184950.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZG0XC8)
(https://i.ibb.co/wywg9DK/20230325-184953.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qF2gPf)
(https://i.ibb.co/NZwn1jS/20230325-184959.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJCrWzy)
(https://i.ibb.co/p3w7yrG/20230325-185008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jtqdg9)
(https://i.ibb.co/8b7RQjh/20230325-185012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypQMx83)
(https://i.ibb.co/dBNxf2y/20230325-184903.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZCj0qx)
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Could you measure the barrel at the breech and the tang to determine if it is tapered or a straight barrel ? Thank you for your help. Did you get the lengthy private message I sent you that will hopefully help explain some features? Thanks again !
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SORRY , I meant to say at the breech and the muzzle diameter measurements for to determine taper ,
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The drum and nipple make sense on a rifle that will not be loaded for big bear or other big critters.
I compared the "S.Hawken" on the barrel of this rifles with one on page 89 of Woodfill's book on Hawken and
it looks like the same stamp was used.Until PROVEN bogus I would say that this rifle IS a real Hawken
made by Sam or one of his craftsmen.
Bob Roller
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
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Here is a picture of the S. Hawken stamp on the barrel of the rifle belonging to Jim Bridger.
Take a close look in comparison to yours.
(https://i.ibb.co/y8gKYtk/Bridger-rifle-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GVCGtyM)
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Welcome to the A.L.R. . You have sure started out with a bang (pun intended ) . A rifle and a story I love it. Enjoy your Hawken.
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
Most I've seen are filed.
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Wow!!
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
Most I've seen are filed.
Of course, if a coning tool was used, the muzzle would be round, not showing the 7 flats where the lands end, thus is must have been filed.
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
Most I've seen are filed.
Of course, if a coning tool was used, the muzzle would be round, not showing the 7 flats where the lands end, thus is must have been filed.
I've used a coning tool to even up wear at the muzzle, make loading a bit easier and at the same time leaving at least some rifling visible all the way to the end of the muzzle, just like the muzzle on this Hawken. It works great! No file needed.
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What a handsome rifle !
The shaping around the lock is very much Hawkenesque.
Thanks for posting the pictures. I have often admired the Hawken ''squirrel '' rifles . Looks like it was keyed with a single key like the other originals I have seen in pictures .
I agree that the breech has been worked on . I wonder if you pulled the barrel if you might discover that it had been shortened , rebreeched and the barrel loop repositioned(?) to fit the existing key placement on the stock.
I have build similar half stocks and found the length and trigger guard very comfortable as shooters .The rounded tang is much less susceptible to damage than a square or spatulate shape if one happens to pull the barrel for cleaning.
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
Most I've seen are filed.
Of course, if a coning tool was used, the muzzle would be round, not showing the 7 flats where the lands end, thus is must have been filed.
I've used a coning tool to even up wear at the muzzle, make loading a bit easier and at the same time leaving at least some rifling visible all the way to the end of the muzzle, just like the muzzle on this Hawken. It works great! No file needed.
Those flats are the ends of the lands, not the grooves. I know about coning, I tested it and found it lacking in the loading AND accuracy departments. If you are happy with it, fine. Since you brought up accuracy and loading, if accuracy & loading was actually improved, the chunk shooters and bench rest shooters would have their muzzles coned. The don't.
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The geometry of the muzzles of original rifles has been discussed many times. Various explanations have been offered for what I have often seen when restoring original rifling by freshing with cutters:
The diameter at the muzzle is 0.015” greater, more or less, than 5/8 of an inch to and inch and a quarter down the bore.
The rifling grooves at the muzzle are at least as deep as the grooves in the remainder of the barrel.
If you think about it, this cannot arise from either wear or deliberate coming as it is done nowadays, which makes the grooves at the muzzle almost disappear or disappear entirely.
Original poster: does this “rifling form at the muzzle of original rifles” discussion merit a separate topic?
Fine either way.
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Instead of having a filed muzzle, this one does appear to have been coned, ie: larger at the muzzle, than down inside an inch or so.
Well, who would have thought it possible. :o
Most I've seen are filed.
Of course, if a coning tool was used, the muzzle would be round, not showing the 7 flats where the lands end, thus is must have been filed.
I've used a coning tool to even up wear at the muzzle, make loading a bit easier and at the same time leaving at least some rifling visible all the way to the end of the muzzle, just like the muzzle on this Hawken. It works great! No file needed.
Those flats are the ends of the lands, not the grooves. I know about coning, I tested it and found it lacking in the loading AND accuracy departments. If you are happy with it, fine. Since you brought up accuracy and loading, if accuracy & loading was actually improved, the chunk shooters and bench rest shooters would have their muzzles coned. The don't.
If you really read my post you'll see that I didn't say a single word about coning improving accuracy, :o ::)
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LOL!
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If funneling or coning was a way to improve accuracy then the blunderbus would have good sights......wouldn't it????
Bob Roller