AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WKevinD on April 19, 2023, 12:15:25 AM

Title: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: WKevinD on April 19, 2023, 12:15:25 AM: Someone dropped a relic today for "cleaning" so he could hang it on the wall. I am fascinated by the carving and general style of the piece. It's missing most of the fore stock and has definitely been reworked a long time ago. The (present) barrel is a 20 gauge octagon to round smoothbore But I believe the gun was originally built as a rifle. I presume early, German built with a 2 1/8" wide buttplate and a strong cheekpiece.
Here are some pictures:
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/sqnzfS0/Buttcarve.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hq63SvW)

(https://i.ibb.co/8x36H5R/Buttcarving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNR4spK)

(https://i.ibb.co/wCtHD1Y/wrist-carvecheek.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1KcVHxb)

(https://i.ibb.co/ygdvw0T/Wrist-carve.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jrm6fnL)

(https://i.ibb.co/m9xy6Gb/Touchmark.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bsfvzPQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/mcW4GVD/Tangcarve.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rwrHmR7)

(https://i.ibb.co/VjgK8Hp/Lockplate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yf63JhB)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 19, 2023, 12:35:28 AM: Cool beans man.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: mr. no gold on April 19, 2023, 03:26:57 AM: Heck Yeah!! Nice old Cherman gun and well worth the admiration and improvement. Good for your client for wanting to put it up on the wall. Thanks for letting the rest of us have a look at it.
Dick
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Daniel Coats on April 19, 2023, 03:40:13 AM: More pictures please.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: John Cotterall on April 19, 2023, 05:16:15 PM: Thanks for sharing these high results pictures. I am knew to building and especially carving. See up close that this original flintlock doesn’t have perfect carving is actually encouraging. Would you say this piece is “transitional “? It looks to my eye similar to a Yaegar.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Tom Currie on April 19, 2023, 05:18:34 PM: Really cool. Thanks for posting. What do you guys think for a date ? 1750s ish ? Looks for sure like walnut to me. Can' t wait to see more pics.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: HSmithTX on April 19, 2023, 10:13:39 PM: Very cool, thanks for sharing. the carving is fascinating.

Potentially (probably) dumb questions, what makes you say it was likely built as a rifle? Early, guessing that's first half 17th century?
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: rich pierce on April 19, 2023, 10:16:21 PM: Quote from: HSmithTX on April 19, 2023, 10:13:39 PM
Very cool, thanks for sharing. the carving is fascinating.

Potentially (probably) dumb questions, what makes you say it was likely built as a rifle? Early, guessing that's first half 17th century?

The cheek piece and guard sort of lean it toward being built as a rifle in my view. Not definitive.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 12:05:58 AM: I have a german gun that has an oct/rnd barrel. it is a 1/2 stock. It has a cheek piece and a rifle trigger guard, and a square toe. The bore is smooth, except for the last 2" at the highly flared muzzle. It's probably a boar gun.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 12:07:32 AM: Quote from: John Cotterall on April 19, 2023, 05:16:15 PM
Thanks for sharing these high results pictures. I am knew to building and especially carving. See up close that this original flintlock doesn’t have perfect carving is actually encouraging. Would you say this piece is “transitional “? It looks to my eye similar to a Yaegar.
Transitional from what, to what? This is a European gun, not colonial American. The carving quality is pretty common.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: rich pierce on April 20, 2023, 12:34:14 AM: Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 12:05:58 AM
I have a german gun that has an oct/rnd barrel. it is a 1/2 stock. It has a cheek piece and a rifle trigger guard, and a square toe. The bore is smooth, except for the last 2" at the highly flared muzzle. It's probably a boar gun.

Same here, almost. Mine has traces of straight rifling and the barrel is octagon all the way. Wait - maybe kinda close.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Tim Crosby on April 20, 2023, 12:58:55 AM: So was the tang screw made like that, with a left right slot? Looks like it would have to of been taken out a LOT If that is wear. Neat "Workman like" carving.

Tim C.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: WKevinD on April 20, 2023, 04:01:56 AM: I'll take and post more pictures tomorrow. I took a close look at the barrel today, it fits the stock too well to have been added or changed as mike had stated cheek piece, squared toe at the butt plate, rifle trigger and guard, halfstock but probably broken stock.
I'm a fan of the effortless appearance of the Jaeger style carving.
Kevin
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Bill Paton on April 20, 2023, 08:14:55 AM: Mike,
With respect to the guard and cheek rest issue, in my study group of 23 jaeger doubel barrreled wender guns, three have both barrels smooth bored, are half round, have no rear sights, fixed front bead or blade sights, flat toes, and appear to have been made originally as wender fowlers. All three fowlers have cheek rests and raised grip-rails on their guards like jaeger rifles. Curiously two of them are made with double set triggers (with no rear sights, mind you)!!! The 20 other guns have at least one rifled barrel.

Bill Paton
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: John Cotterall on April 20, 2023, 05:44:24 PM: Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 12:07:32 AM
Quote from: John Cotterall on April 19, 2023, 05:16:15 PM
Thanks for sharing these high results pictures. I am knew to building and especially carving. See up close that this original flintlock doesn’t have perfect carving is actually encouraging. Would you say this piece is “transitional “? It looks to my eye similar to a Yaegar.
Transitional from what, to what? This is a European gun, not colonial American. The carving quality is pretty common.
Sorry, I missed the part about it being a German piece. I was asking about it being transitional from Yaeger to American Longrifle. I thought it was American made piece.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 06:01:46 PM: "Transitional" is a poor term for colonial American rifles. "Early" is much more descriptive.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: WESTbury on April 20, 2023, 06:09:57 PM: Quote from: WKevinD on April 20, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
I'll take and post more pictures tomorrow.

Please include a photo of the entire sideplate. Thanks!
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: WKevinD on April 20, 2023, 10:40:15 PM: Some additional pictures.
My rural internet is super slow so these take a while to upload.

Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/xSfn8fg/05.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMx0Px2)

(https://i.ibb.co/phpFHgc/06.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vw84FdR)

(https://i.ibb.co/C0p1WDF/01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RHGv7dW)

(https://i.ibb.co/8cLTkKk/02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6B7VQnQ)

upload image (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/wC99vv2/03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Zggwwz)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 20, 2023, 11:48:00 PM: Looks about like mine only mine is ugly. Same sling set up, same 1/2 stock treatment, same sinle ram pipe. I think yours was always a 1/2 stock too. Most anything with an oct to round barrel like that was 1/2 stocked and could have been straight rifled.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Seth Isaacson on April 21, 2023, 12:35:43 AM: Definitely seems to be original half-stock to me. I've seen several like that. They are neat guns.

(https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/86/3238.jpg)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: WKevinD on April 21, 2023, 01:01:39 AM: Now that's an eye opener! I thought with that goofy pipe spacing it was a reworked and repaired rifle, Seth your picture looks like it's first cousin. Thanks.
How long is the barrel on the one in your picture?
Always learning something, showing me why I shouldn't assume...

Kevin
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Seth Isaacson on April 21, 2023, 04:10:39 PM: Jacob Koch of Vienna c. 1679-1702. 46 1/4 inch part octagon, 16 gauge.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 21, 2023, 05:17:55 PM: I'll throw these up so the similarities can be seen.
(https://i.ibb.co/RHJGhKn/20230421-090355.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NYGg1qh)

(https://i.ibb.co/Jkj62QG/20230421-090531.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F74ZJVy)

(https://i.ibb.co/ZLwB7Hc/20230421-090633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3r8pQfS)

(https://i.ibb.co/dktYt9L/20230421-090704.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6D8C8h1)

(https://i.ibb.co/zPq7XXG/20230421-090815.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9yQVbbs)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 21, 2023, 05:21:07 PM: More.

(https://i.ibb.co/WgcPbys/20230421-090849.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FgB0Swn)

(https://i.ibb.co/zxfr6Tf/20230421-090922.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQj30Fj)

(https://i.ibb.co/mJqYZ90/20230421-090956.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tc8nj41)

(https://i.ibb.co/X86Vnth/20230421-091058.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5FC2QLN)

random number generator machine for raffles (https://freeonlinedice.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/p1Y76F1/20230421-091134.jpg) (https://ibb.co/10FgYW0)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Pukka Bundook on April 21, 2023, 05:40:02 PM: Mike,
Mine looks like it's from Saxony, but carving is very like yours.
I also thought cut down, but since then have seen a good few like this.
You can usually see a few on Bolk's website, but normally high end versions.

Mine is more middle of the road with a most awful conversion to percussion!

It looks later, say the 1770's yet the barrel according to Stockel is mid 1600's.
(https://i.ibb.co/bRw1PMZ/RH-German-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/93KnNkL)

(https://i.ibb.co/BtyGXHj/RH-German-d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bPsFSjL)

(https://i.ibb.co/Wn7KJXs/RH-German-e.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wy86mqY)

(https://i.ibb.co/vvfhTfK/RH-German-m.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBKpZKb)

one of the forened treatment. Horn, but somewhat broken.

(https://i.ibb.co/FVdNBLq/RH-German-b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nCKZDN8)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: rich pierce on April 21, 2023, 05:43:24 PM: I don’t have a full length picture handy but here’s my half stock European big bore gun with straight rifling.
(https://i.ibb.co/861vwTD/817-BCC3-A-27-EC-49-DE-A473-674280-EFEF74.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kQNbTkg)

(https://i.ibb.co/RhVmyRS/0-C4345-C1-151-D-4-A22-8-B97-91-B504-DA8-F83.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gvBpVk7)

(https://i.ibb.co/3RSp9mC/E5-C2-F904-F7-DE-4743-8-F70-1-A080-B9-FCC34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qJmN3Yr)

(https://i.ibb.co/80t9f1D/AAB28692-FBB5-4-D72-8-F5-A-0-A20-D5806-ABA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R9dcsRp)

(https://i.ibb.co/yB7y3TY/4707-DFE8-D42-F-4308-B77-B-BD368-D1-A3-F60.jpg) (https://ibb.co/93STMXV)

(https://i.ibb.co/MPLzBHT/28-DAC9-F9-F54-A-4-DBE-B400-9-D4-B1-DF62824.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XFTnYPB)

(https://i.ibb.co/Jt3XK82/7544-DDD3-F87-F-44-EE-8826-A5-D35-FC5-E4-DA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dRt7VW)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 21, 2023, 06:24:11 PM: All great examples with many similarities.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Ed Wenger on April 22, 2023, 02:18:09 AM: I love these old German guns, thanks for posting, guys!

Kevin…, that is a robust cheek piece! Best,

Ed
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: lexington1 on April 22, 2023, 03:03:11 AM: Here is an early rifle with straight rifling.
(https://i.ibb.co/WGMQ00b/20230203-174252-in-Pixio.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jZHQQw)

(https://i.ibb.co/PGPStgy/20230203-174513-in-Pixio.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFZ3VqC)

(https://i.ibb.co/q5JZFT8/20230203-174521.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VmwKpfG)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 22, 2023, 03:28:16 AM: Brandenburg gun. Nice.
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: jdm on April 23, 2023, 05:09:52 PM: Here is a picture of mine. It's a half stock Boar gun also. I didn't know there was such a thing until Brooks did some explaining.

(https://i.ibb.co/NV6PwsX/IMG-1879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M2D4qsb)

(https://i.ibb.co/0Chvcb5/IMG-1868.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v3ZRHn9)

(https://i.ibb.co/J3PwSTN/IMG-1865.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HhQf9y0)

(https://i.ibb.co/L9KGztH/IMG-1860.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wptvNWj)

(https://i.ibb.co/RCtYfk7/IMG-1866.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bgvcb5w)

(https://i.ibb.co/S5NS2gs/IMG-1861.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4KWkcLm)
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 23, 2023, 07:26:30 PM: No buttplate. How nifty is that? I wonder what's up with all the little brass brads?
Title: Re: A nice old gun came in the shop
Post by: jdm on April 23, 2023, 08:11:28 PM: [quote author=Mike Brooks l
No buttplate. How nifty is that? I wonder what's up with all the little brass brads?

The buttplate is a simple screw. I've seen this used before not very attractive but I guess it works. The brass brads are what made me stop and look at this. They are everywhere . There is a cross on the right side of the stock .

(https://i.ibb.co/5rqRXBN/IMG-1875.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n7hLqzH)

(https://i.ibb.co/6PHms8P/IMG-1870.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J7vKkq7)

(https://i.ibb.co/CmD7xKB/IMG-1863.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFN6n2k)

(https://i.ibb.co/Df5YdH0/IMG-1884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3mBvK9g)