AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: k morgan on April 27, 2023, 11:45:19 AM
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what are your better turkey loads not using tss shot
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I have used 1 or 1 1/8 ounce of #6 copper plated shot in my .62 Centermark fusil de chasse (no choke) with 75 grains of 3Fg. I have not shot farther than 25 yards with this gun but have harvested 7 turkeys with it - most 15-20 yards. This last one was at 12 yards. Last November, I harvested a nice bird using a John Mullin (New York) made 14 gauge double (no choke but good bores for an antique) using 1 1/8 ounce of #6 bismuth and 2 3/4 drams of 3Fg also at about 12 yards. Here in western SD, decoys seem to work well and I enjoy seeing birds up close, so I don't take long shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/q0xWKxh/20230417-171415.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mvSXkSd)
(https://i.ibb.co/yPnqVfZ/20221107-100329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/02jrQD6)
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Excellent "work" Bill.
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Hey Bill
Nice pictures.
Good to see you here.
Art Fleener
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Cool! Shootin those white tipped feather birds…
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75 grains 2f or 70 grains 3f under 1 1/4oz #5 lead shot loaded Skychief method. I use this in 2 different 20 gauge guns, a TVM Early Virginia smoothrifle and a Centermark Fusil des Chase.
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Hunting turkeys with a muzzleloading rifle is legal in my state. I hunt them with a .40 caliber flintlock I built for my turkey weapon. My load is 60 grains of 3fg, .395 ball, and real good pillow ticking I bought about 30 years ago.
I mainly shoot them through the wing butt, hardly any loss of meat and it puts them down right there.
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In BC, shotguns, RF's & Air rifles are legal for Turkey.
ML's are not listed. Could a flintlock not be legally considered a rim fire?
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In my earlier post, I failed to mention the wads I use. I think this is important as there are many possible combinations. My initial turkey loads in the .62 fusil de chasse were with standard 20 gauge nitro card wads and lead shot. We live in a very dry region and this spring we are in the 4th year of a serious drought. I believe Art Fleener on this forum questioned the risk of wads starting fires and this has been a concern for me since 2016 when I obtained this gun. For turkeys I have been using 2 UNLUBED hard wool felt wads 1/8" thick that I cut from material purchased from DuroFelt under a 20 ga. plastic shot cup from Ballistic Products Inc. This one is from their CSD series and is not slit. I slit them with 4 short slits of about 3/8". I have learned that these are intended for steel and other hard shot and they are thick tough plastic. If you look for opinions about slitting this type of wad on the internet you find many. No surprise here. There are people who insist that if not slit, these wads will sometimes, if not frequently, fail to separate from the shot column and act as a potentially dangerous "slug". I have fired many patterns on paper with these wads slit to 3/8" in 4 equally spaced cuts and I have never seen slugging. I initially tried a few with no slits and in at a least one instance, I did see slugging at 30 yards distance. I do not use them unslit and I believe that if people use them they should be aware of that possibility.
I cannot give a figure as to what percentage increase in pellet density these wads give in this gun over card wads with no shot cup (cylinder bored gun). However, it was very noticable in my trials. I did most of my pattern testing at 30 yards and at that distance got 85-88% of a one ounce load of #6 shot in a 30" circle. According to the work cited in Oberfell and Thompson's book (The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns, 1957) and in the three article series by Kevin Tinney and Philip Orem published in Muzzle Blasts in Aug., Sept., and Oct. of 1987, this should equate to a modified or improved modified choke. Similar information is in an excellent article titled "Pattern Analysis for Busy Sportsmen" by Ron Jones in Shotgun Sports magazine in March of 2013 I believe. I have posted two targets from my testing; one fired at 30 yards and one at 25 yards. I limit my shots at turkeys to 25 yards with this gun and it has been effective. I want to try some patterns without the shot cup and with hard #71/2 shot. There are about 225 #6 pellets in a one ounce load but about 350 in one ounce of #71/2. I strongly suspicion that there is enough remaining pellet energy in #71/2 lead shot at 25 yards to penetrate the head and neck bones of a turkey, and the increased number of pellets (almost 50%) would be a significant advantage. For rabbits and pheasants, I do not use the shot cup and use 3 wool wads or one wool over the powder and a nitro card over the wool and under the shot load.
Wool is an amazing fiber. Of interest to me in this application is the fact that while it can be burned, it does not support combustion - meaning when you take the heat source away, it stops burning. In the other picture you can see the plastic wads and some fired wool wads that I have recovered from pattern testing. The plastic is not badly distorted and the wool wad next to the powder is badly frayed and scorched, but the wool wad next to the bottom of the shot cup could almost be used again. The plastic wad on the left is a new one. I recently acquired some 20 gauge 3/8" thick wool felt wads from Precision Reloading. These are meant for filler wads and seem to be high quality wool as observed from trying to burn them with a propane torch. They are not hard, dense material, but they may work very well. I hope to try more of them. The load in the 14 gauge John Mullin gun I used for the turkey killed last November was two 1/8" wool felt wads over the powder and then a 1/8" nitro card then the bismuth shot and a thin card over the shot.
(https://i.ibb.co/h145gPX/DSCF9007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xSD1NY)
(https://i.ibb.co/T1Dd6W2/DSCF9008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qk7tLDQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/WGVS77d/20230430-152324-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6rX6GGp)
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Thanks Bill. I've been suggesting this sort of loading of smoothbores for some time now. Your results speak for themselves.
Well done.
These look like at least, modified modern shotguns patterns. NICE!
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Depending on the gun, I'll use different powder and shot charges, but, ALWAYS use the Skychief loading method! ;D ;D ;D
Turkeys hate it...
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Im a skychief believer!!
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Thats a very handsome bird Bill. Its great to see people using old but serviceable guns. I have a H. Holland 13 bore double I have been threatening to use on turkey myself but haven't been able to draw a tag for several years.
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80 grains OE Goex 3f, 1/8" cork wad, 1/3 cut fiber wad (DRY) and self-made paper bag shotcup filled with 1.5 ounces #5 plated shot, followed by egg carton overshot wad in 20 gauge TVM fowler kit gun. 30 -40 pellets in neck/head hits!
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I have used 1 or 1 1/8 ounce of #6 copper plated shot in my .62 Centermark fusil de chasse (no choke) with 75 grains of 3Fg. I have not shot farther than 25 yards with this gun but have harvested 7 turkeys with it - most 15-20 yards. This last one was at 12 yards. Last November, I harvested a nice bird using a John Mullin (New York) made 14 gauge double (no choke but good bores for an antique) using 1 1/8 ounce of #6 bismuth and 2 3/4 drams of 3Fg also at about 12 yards. Here in western SD, decoys seem to work well and I enjoy seeing birds up close, so I don't take long shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/q0xWKxh/20230417-171415.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mvSXkSd)
(https://i.ibb.co/yPnqVfZ/20221107-100329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/02jrQD6)
Those other turkeys don’t seems bothered at all by their dead comrade.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TL4NKzX/20231101-173017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZcVDv9)
Fall turkey (young of the year) in southwestern SD; November 1. Old "Scott and Son" 19 gauge double using 2 1/2 drams of Goex 2Fg, three 0.075" nitro card wads over the powder, 1 1/8 ounce of copper-plated #6 shot, thin card over shot. 20 yards distance. The barrels were reamed probably in the 1960s for trap shooting at Friendship by Earl Pepiot but have no choke. This same gun was used on October 9 when 2 rooster pheasants blundered into the same load using 1 1/8 ounce of plain #7 1/2 shot.
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Good shooting, Bill. I've a feeling, that in some guns, the non-slit steel shot wad might act very similar to the olds Ely wired shot loads, which were designed for longer ranges,
there the shot finally out-ranged the 'wad(s)' and flew as shot does. Ely's were colour coded for range, the green I think, was the long range cut, used at close range, 30 to 50
yards as a slug "for deer or wolves", but gave tight patterns with the 'released' shot at longer ranges.
I'll bet some of you thought "buffered shot" was a "new" thing. Came to light in US in 1830's.
(https://i.ibb.co/rHYgwT0/Ely-Ctg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GRyX5Bp)
(https://i.ibb.co/f4Sk4GN/Ely-Ctg-Explanation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J5dv5Fp)
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I agree about the plastic wads I have used in my flint fusil as possibly acting like the old wads. They deserve more experiments. From a purely traditional standpoint, I'd like to experiment more with a little finer shot without the plastic cup. If one doesn't try to shoot too far, pattern density should compensate for reduced pellet energy. Some shooting I did last year suggested #7 1/2 lead shot should have adequate penetration out to about 25 yards. I want to do some more penetration testing. That size worked fine on those 2 pheasants at about 20 to 25 yards.
I didn't use a plastic wad in this old gun for this recent turkey or the pheasants.
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Just make sure you use a card or wool wad between the plastic wad and the powder.
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Very nice turkey pattern!
Tony
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Yes- the centre density is amazing. WWGreener wrote some gun makers in England in the 'field' trials used hollowed out (cheating) wads, or the "Swedish" cup wads to
help fill in the centre of the patterns.
The writings of the old masters can help, but only if we listen.
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I agree Daryl, listen to the old guys cause old guys know stuff ;D. John ( Pondaro ) (sp) Taylor comes to mind.
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Smylee- do you have "The Gun" and it's development 9th Edition by WW Greener?
It was started in 1858 by his father W. Greener & contains all of the earlier writings as well.
John Taylor was indeed an interesting individual and good writer a well.
(https://i.ibb.co/TYcrf8L/The-Gun.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yd0V9yS)
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Yes i have that book but a latter edition. Those early writers WERE NOT armchair experts as they developed their opinions through actual experience.
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(https://i.ibb.co/zF2ZP2f/84-D1-E3-E9-D7-E8-4386-851-C-D11-A4-DCE29-BE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xYg6zg5)
My 12 ga. 30” full choke likes 80 grains 2f 1-1/8” card, 1 1/8 ounce #6 copper plated shot, another 1/8” card wad. I have taken over 10 turkeys with this gun and load out to 40 yards, but 35 is my normal limit.
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Yes i have that book but a latter edition. Those early writers WERE NOT armchair experts as they developed their opinions through actual experience.
Is there a 10, or is your book, earlier, Grouch?
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Nice Bird Oakabow! Daryl, my Greener book is a modern re-wright of the 9th edition with a lot of added illustrations and text. Over 800 pages.
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I see. Mine is only 781 pages, then the index. After the index, is a whole bunch of re-printed adds.
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Just finished, not a "turkey load" but built for turkeys and deer not for cylinder bore purists.
36" .62 barrel with a .57 threaded choke (barrel by Bobby Hoyt) Chambers English lock. Thread protector on the .62 barrel for roundball choke tube for turkeys.
(https://i.ibb.co/f0KMfXV/Turkey2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cTpJ0yK)
(https://i.ibb.co/k22qD87/Turkey3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwwVmnj)
(https://i.ibb.co/r6bsL9Y/Turkey4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vPsYr9p)
(https://i.ibb.co/GJvxHft/Turkey5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BPVznHr)
Kevin
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Not very aesthetically pleasing, but interesting concept for sure.