AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Herb on June 28, 2023, 02:06:36 AM
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I am building a bench copy of this rifle for Jeff Hengesbaugh. I photographed and carefully measured it at his place. It was originally flintlock but was converted to caplock. The barrel is 40 5/8" long, .56 caliber, 1 1/4" at breech tapering to 1 1/8" at the muzzle. He wants it built in flint, and I need some advice on which lock to use. The lock (and inlet) is 5.2" long. I looked at Track's catalog and found about five flintlocks that would fit a 1 1/4 barrel. I think a Queen Anne is a good choice, or a Tulle fusil de chasse. Both are 5.6" long, and I could file the tit off the back to shorten them some. The rifle has been rebuilt and modified from original, so an earlier lock could have been used. I also have to modify a butt plate, make a trigger guard, rod pipes, nose cap, and entry pipe. Got the barrel and tang inletted into the stock. About ready to have it bandsawed out by a friend, but need to have a lock first. By the way, Jeff's rifle was not stolen, a friend saw him and the rifle about a month ago. I welcome some advice on the lock. Thanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/cJMTXpH/Beckworth-Rifle-Herb-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y2YjTKM)
(https://i.ibb.co/qnqqKWG/Jeff-Hengesbaugh-Carney-Beckwourth-rifle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcSSLCB)
(https://i.ibb.co/cwv96M2/Beckworth-Rifle-Lock-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KDGg2RV)
(https://i.ibb.co/k150Khg/Beckworth-Rifle-Trigger-Guard-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQF4x5Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/gy7bRnj/Beckwourth-X-ray-3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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HERB,welcome back to the lands of the living ;D ;D ;D ;D. The lock certainly looks like a converted flint lock and the drum and nipple
instead of a bolster.This MIGHT be the first Hawken that might have been a flint lock when new.What kind of mechanism does the lock have although it isn't a hard and fast rule about this one way or the other.Has this gun evet been REALLY evaluated and closely examined by anyone who really knows these guns?Looks Hawken to me but I am NO expert.
Bob Roller
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Herb, there are no good choices in an off the shelf lock. The lock shape is like the L&R Manton, which is smaller. Your choices are to compromise or build from scratch or more modify a percussion lock.
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I am not certain, but I think Chris Hirsch has a flintlock that is close to this one. Wormey
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This percussion lock is most similar in shape to the Beckworth rifle’s lock. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/783/1/LOCK-LR-150
If you’re going to use double set triggers be sure your lock has a fly.
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Hammer isn't even close.
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Hammer isn't even close.
I think he wants a flintlock. I’m suggesting finding any lock that’s close and modifying it as needed. A percussion lock of the right size and shape could be converted to flint. Add a double throated cock, pan, frizzen, and frizzen spring.
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Thanks, all. That L&R 150 is for a one-inch barrel. My barrel is 1 1/4". The Beckwourth lock is an odd ball. The center of the hammer screw to the center of the drum is 2.17". Present caplocks measure 1.5", and the big flintlocks measure 1.75" to the flash hole. Bob, I don't remember who has looked at the Beckwourth rifle, but Jeff Hengesbaugh thinks it is a forerunner of the Hawken rifle. He has drawn many similarities between the JB rifle and Hawkens. I don't have the skill or time to modify a lock, except to shorten the rear a little. I believe my best bet is one of the two I mentioned.
But there is still a problem. The JB rifle was a flintlock, but it does not have a front lock bolt. Jeff has a drawing of a lockplate with a hook on the front that anchors it, I guess that is the JB lock. I am unsure how this can be poked in and allow the lock into the inlet.
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I just looked a Track's web page, and It seems that the 1803 Harper's Ferry might be my best fit.
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Herb,
I sent a personal message regarding the Harpers Ferry lock.
Kevin
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Herb,
Maybe I’m missing something, but why not use a Chambers Late Ketland and grind or weld the lock plate as needed. I’ve not heard great things about the Harpers Ferry lock.
Good luck
Kevin
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I did NOT have a good experience with the Harper Ferry lock.
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I did NOT have a good experience with the Harper Ferry lock.
Same with me! Plab o. Lots of work.
Dennis
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Interesting comments on that Harpers Ferry lock as I was thinking of using one on a rifle. But I would be interested in knowing just what issues were encountered. :-\
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Herb, great hearing from you and I'm happy to see you are in the process of another build...can't wait to see the finished rifle.
A thought and a comment...first, would the Chambers gunmakers flintlock work? It give you the freedom of making the lock plate look how you want and it is long enough for the lock mortise. The hammer is passable for 1830's built rifle. Just a thought...
As for using an 1803 Harper's Ferry lock, I would hesitate to use an arsenal built military lock on a rifle made by a civilian gunmaker. I know that Jacob worked at Harpers Ferry, but I'm not sure he would have walked off with their locks to use, but you never know I guess!
As for quality 1803 HF locks, I used a Rifle Shoppe Harper's Ferry lock for their 1800 prototype build. I had Mike Keller tune it a bit, but I've have had no issues with it at all since. The only time it has not gone off was when I had a bull elk in my sights at 40 yards and pulled the trigger...the only problem was I had failed to remove the leather hammer stall! Luckily the elk was patient enough to allow me a do over and the lock fired quickly the second time I pulled the trigger.
-Steve
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L&R #900
maybe??
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Thanks, all. I think appearance is more important to Jeff than function. I doubt he'll ever shoot it. I will to regulate the sights. Chamber's Classic Ketland 1810-1820 is for a 1" barrel and has a square tail. The gunmakers lock doesn't say what barrel size it is for, and that is more work than I want. I did consider it. The 1803 is available as an unmarked common rifle. I would think builders back then used that lock, kind of a military surplus or salvage from a military rifle. I like the L&R 900, have used it twice. It doesn't mention barrel size for the flintlock, but the matching caplock is for barrels up to 1 1/8". I don't know what difference that would make on a 1 1/4 flintlock, but if it will work, that is my choice. The plate is 5.0" long, compared to JB's 5.2", but the appearance is more important than the exact size. Thanks for making me look again, ScottH. I'd use the reinforced cock. The outline is close to the JB lock.
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Herb, I am thinking it would be pretty easy and quick for you to find a lock that looks the closest, and if the lock is meant for a small barrel than 1 1/8", you can easily solder a shim onto the bolster and file to match bolster contour in order to allow use for a larger barrel. You could make quick work of that
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Herb,
Does the tumbler in that lock have a half cock position? That will say for sure about the possibility of it being a flintlock.
Bob Roller
How thick is that bolster and can you cut an accurate profile of that plate and the exact location of the tumbler hole?
I can make that plate easily.I used 1/4x 1 and 1/4 cold finished 1018 and will drill a pilot hole for the tumbler.
I have a finished Carson plate but it isn't long enough.Once the plate is made then just about any mechanism can be installed.
Bob Roller
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Looking closely at the photos posted here, the only thing that would lead me to believe that this lock might have been flint originally is the chunk missing above the lock that might have been clearance for a flint cock stop. But it could also just be a chunk missing. Or, perhaps this entire lock is a replacement for a late flintlock that might have preceded it, and this replacement is a good fit? Tough to tell trying to zoom in on the photos on a laptop. I can see by the xray image that it looks like a 3-screw bridle and I can see a stirrup tumbler. *IF* this lock is a complete replacement, it's possible that the current lockplate is a little larger than the original. Real tough one here. The hook at the nose of the plate to eliminate the front bolt would be pretty standard for either a late flint or percussion.
Most of the time, when the lock companies or resellers (i.e. track, mbs etc) are specifying barrel size, they are going by the interaction between the bolster, barrel and mainspring and whether or not a given bolster thickness with allow the particular mainspring to clear the barrel. There are lots of alterations that can be done here. 1.25 breech in .56 cal still gives you a lot of meat there so if there are issues with the mainspring clearing, you can thin the spring, or file bevels onto it, or chisel out a bit of a barrel groove or all three.
I've used a couple of those Davis locks that were basically the HF lock without the markings, but I modified the heck out of them. Never had a problem with one, though. I'm generally not a Davis lock fan but did not have issues with them but to be honest I was replacing some parts as I was modifying. I'm not sure if the 'common rifle' or unmarked version is still identical to the HF lock, as I see they sell common rifle locks now that don't look exactly the same to me.
Edit: so I took at look at Track and they still show HF lock with engraving and without, but being the same lock. However, the unmarked lock is backordered. That may be in perpetuity *if* Davis is no longer making them in that form. One point, since it largely uses Siler internals, (1) replacement parts are piece of cake, and (2) the Siler mainspring can easily accommodate bevels filed on the arms, particularly the upper arm in this case, which will buy you at least 1/8 of barrel size or more depending upon how aggressively you file the bevels. It can be done without annealing or retempering the spring and it will have no effect on function. If you can still get one of these, based upon what you want to do, I would go with this lock but expect to do some fairly simple modifying (no welding should be involved - all cut and file).
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This was the unmarked HF lock with a replaced cock and frizzen, and some filework on the plate, but not much else. Actually I might have just reworked the frizzen, not sure but looking at the tail I thought it best to call it replaced.
(https://i.ibb.co/PWcmT0g/oleylockside-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DM9VGTQ)
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I found this with more photos:
https://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14
The more I look at it, the more I think that this lock is a replacement lock at the time it was converted. I do not think this current lock was ever a flintlock but of course could be wrong. But I don't see it, especially viewing the "gut" phtoos. However, the notch above the plate does indeed look like a deliberate cut for a flint cock stop. If I am right, I'd guess the original flintlock was @ 5" or so long and plate was probably just a hair smaller than the lock in it now. It may have had a 'tit' at the tail, or it may have been roundback as this lock shown. If indeed this lock is a period replacement, the round tail and slightly larger size would cover any evidence of a small tail tit.
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Now that I look at the Xray image again, there is clearly a notch for a front lock bolt under this barrel. But looking at how tightly the rammer fits up against the underside of the barrel, how the heck would someone get a bolt through there? Something is starting to look a little funky here. Is it just me? I am admittedly very cynical. Could this barrel not be original to this stock? Or maybe it was recycled when the gun was stocked? I just don't see how a front lock bolt is getting through all this but yet there sure appears to be a groove there unless the xray itself is screwy.
And, if there was no front lock bolt, I also don't see any evidence that there was a hook at the nose because there is no screw head or stud inside the mortice for the catch. Unless it was hogged out, which then also points to a complete lock replacement. This is getting weirder and weirder.
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I'm not seeing a halfcock notch in the tumbler in the xray
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I'm not seeing a halfcock notch in the tumbler in the xray
I agree. From that x-ray, it looks like an original percussion lock. If that rifle was originally a flinter, it wasn't with this lock.
Just my opinion, of course.... ;-)
Also, with no front lock bolt, I might start wondering about the originality of the flint cock notch in the wood and its burn pattern,,,,
John
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I appreciate all the comments, thanks. This barrel and lock have been repurposed so much, who knows what they started out as. I should not have said I was making a bench copy. What I am doing is to make a rifle as close in appearance to the rifle as it is now, as I can what with making parts or modifying the closest match. The Muzzleloader Magazine article has drawings and photos of the rifle. "Rifle barrel shortened from original length". "Relocated and strengthened barrel lugs". In "The Rabbet", the lock mortice, is there a place for a hook at the front? Both photos of the lock interior do not show a hook at the front of the lock plate. (Do I really need a front lock bolt on this flintlock? I don't want to do the hook.)
Eric- I have thinned mainsprings before, and cut a groove in the diagonal barrel flat for a mainspring. And that is a small rammer. The rod pipe inside diameters are .520 front, .500 rear and, and the entry pipe is .500. The rod groove is 1/2 inch. The rod is 41" long, .470 at front and .32 at the rear.
Bob, thanks for your generous offer. Friend Carney Pace offered to help shape a Gunmaker's special, but I think the L&R900 is my best bet. I have a kind offer of one.
HighUintas- I have used a shim on a bolster before. That is a good suggestion. And with no half-cock notch in the tumbler, why double set triggers?
I called Ryan at Muzzleloader Builders Supply to ask if the L&R900 lock would work on this 1 1/4" barrel. He said the lock mainspring is now shaped differetly from earlier models, being wider where the top arm angled end turns up under the bolster. He said it would hit the barrel. He agreed there was enough bulk in the barrel to grind a clearance groove, or the upper arm could be slimmed at the bend.
If this stock was built with a 5 or 5.2" long flint lock in the early 1800's, what lock would that be? Were there such short locks? I do believe it was a flintlock due to the groove for the hammer stop at the top of the lock plate.
It is taking longer to figure how to build this rifle that to actually build it. I really appreciate all your comments.
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It is taking longer to figure how to build this rifle that to actually build it.
Herb, that's one of the reasons I always love to see the work that you post. It's not all willy-nilly! It's obvious you put a lot of care and thought into each project.
This is an antique lock that I used to stock up a 'new' antiqued rifle. If I recall correctly, it was pretty good-sized and the plate was around 5" long or so. This is exactly what I would be looking for to stock up the piece you are planning.
Just my opinion, but the lock can make or break a piece. Not just in terms of function but also in terms of the appearance. For example, there have been oodles of rifles built over the years using dead stock Siler locks. Many are fantastic rifles built by true artisans, but as soon as I see a dead stock Siler lock, I have kind of a "oh $#@*" moment. Robert Weil and I have discussed this ad nauseum.
This is what I would envision being on this rifle as-new if you want to go flint:
(https://i.ibb.co/M9qXmF6/IMG-2090.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8XFhH1c)
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That is a good looking lock on that rifle;I have always liked the double throated "cock" and never recall seeing a broken one.
i wish I could still make that style of lock but now it's doubtful I ever will but there are a lot of locks available now and some that
that be brought up to a usable level when new.
Bob Roller
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I appreciate all the comments, thanks. This barrel and lock have been repurposed so much, who knows what they started out as. I should not have said I was making a bench copy. What I am doing is to make a rifle as close in appearance to the rifle as it is now, as I can what with making parts or modifying the closest match. The Muzzleloader Magazine article has drawings and photos of the rifle. "Rifle barrel shortened from original length". "Relocated and strengthened barrel lugs". In "The Rabbet", the lock mortice, is there a place for a hook at the front? Both photos of the lock interior do not show a hook at the front of the lock plate. (Do I really need a front lock bolt on this flintlock? I don't want to do the hook.)
Eric- I have thinned mainsprings before, and cut a groove in the diagonal barrel flat for a mainspring. And that is a small rammer. The rod pipe inside diameters are .520 front, .500 rear and, and the entry pipe is .500. The rod groove is 1/2 inch. The rod is 41" long, .470 at front and .32 at the rear.
Bob, thanks for your generous offer. Friend Carney Pace offered to help shape a Gunmaker's special, but I think the L&R900 is my best bet. I have a kind offer of one.
HighUintas- I have used a shim on a bolster before. That is a good suggestion. And with no half-cock notch in the tumbler, why double set triggers?
I called Ryan at Muzzleloader Builders Supply to ask if the L&R900 lock would work on this 1 1/4" barrel. He said the lock mainspring is now shaped differetly from earlier models, being wider where the top arm angled end turns up under the bolster. He said it would hit the barrel. He agreed there was enough bulk in the barrel to grind a clearance groove, or the upper arm could be slimmed at the bend.
If this stock was built with a 5 or 5.2" long flint lock in the early 1800's, what lock would that be? Were there such short locks? I do believe it was a flintlock due to the groove for the hammer stop at the top of the lock plate.
It is taking longer to figure how to build this rifle that to actually build it. I really appreciate all your comments.
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Why not have double set triggers with NO half cock position.This is as basic a rifle as can be made and the triggers can easily be made to allow cocking the lock and then firing it.A KISS gun meaning Keep It Simply Simple.Unadorned and all perfotmance.
Bob Roller
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I finished the Beckwourth rifle. About a thousand dollars of parts and over 300 hours in it. Did it all myself except Carney Pace roughed out the trigger guard. Friend Curmudgeon sent me a Davis LR900 lock which I used. I made the entry pipe from a GRRW blank Carl Walker gave me, and the rod pipes and nose cap from 2-inch square steel tubing. The rifle is as close to the original as I could make it. Jeff Hengesbaugh said he would put the rawhide wrap on the wrist. Bobby Hoyt made the barrel, and it is a good one. It is a .560 bore and I did my sight regulating with .535 Hornady balls. Bigger would be better, and Track has them. Pecatonica did the stock with a straight 1 1/8 barrel channel, which I opened to the 1 1/4" breech area. The trigger guard was the biggest problem of all. The rifle is so long and heavy (15 pounds on a spring scale) that I had to be very careful handling it not to drop it on its heel and crack the wrist, which is what happened to the original. I reinforced the wrist with a seven-inch long 3/8 steel tubing gas line epoxied in.
Malware won't let my images show. I tried the "exclusions" but can't make it work.
(https://i.ibb.co/4jTRwmt/Beckwourth-targets.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RC0TGvb)
(https://i.ibb.co/25QhwCt/Beckworth-steel-tubing-nose-cap.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JC4tNG7)
(https://i.ibb.co/z8fxtf4/Beckwourth-E-Pipe-rod-tips.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fhdPhC)
(https://i.ibb.co/jTNhy5s/Beckworth-wrist-reinforce.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HVS7t23)
(https://i.ibb.co/QX8f9Dt/Beckwourth-OE-1-and-half-target.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nR3brPt)
(https://i.ibb.co/hskYvtL/Beckwourth-OE-1-F-target.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qks3dm)
(https://i.ibb.co/x6ybgJF/Beckwourth-final-targets.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NKXqNZT)
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The pictures showed up. I ran out of the Levi patching and the bore didn't like what I used for the last testing. The pictures can be enlarged by right clicking, and then again.
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Here is my final target with Jim's rifle, just to test 120 grains (weight-corrected measure) of Swiss 1 1/2 powder. I did not clean between shots nor have a cleaning patch on the seater jag. The ball got hard to seat. It was also the end of the day and with the clouded sky I could not see the sights well for my last shot. (You can right-click twice to enlarge the picture).
(https://i.ibb.co/WBjQ07r/Beckwourth-120-gr-Swiss-1-and-half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HG30CRc)
image hosting website (https://imgbb.com/)
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I say this with absolute truth-
This board is full of National Treasures.
The knowledge, history, talent and skills are incredible and irreplaceable.
Thank you to all of you and Merry Christmas.
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bptactical- On behalf of all who post their best efforts here, we say thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. The best of the season to all of us. Herb
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Carney delivered my Beckwourth copy to Jeff at Glorieta, NM and photographed the original Beckwourth rifle (at top) and my copy. Jeff did the wrist wrap with rawhide and put more wear on my copy. (You can double-right click to enlarge).
(https://i.ibb.co/cvgLM1G/Mt-Jim-Jeffs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PYmQ3N7)
I don't know how he made it look so old, but that is impressive. Jeff wanted the copy made as the original flintlock.
(https://i.ibb.co/XxVwf83/Beckwourth-lock-mine.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nMRWqCn)
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The Davis trade rifle lock becomes a very good lock if sent to rBrad Emig. That's what I had to do. It may be a better lock off the shelf since Log Cabin took over its production.
Roger B.
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Thank you for documenting this Herb. Just saw the rifle and met Jeff yesterday at the Martinez house in Taos. I think I’m going to build a bench copy, or at least a similar rifle, and how you went about doing this build will be very helpful!
Davison
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I’m alway very skeptical when somebody who eats, sleeps, and dreams, about anything miraculously finds one. So my observation is that this gun has indeed seen a hard life. Possible in the hands of a historic person. Does the signature mean anything? I’m sure it does, but what. Why would somebody put their name on the bottom of the barrel? I’ve seen several fur trade era guns with the owners name carved in the stock, or roughly engraved in the metal fittings, but never on the bottom of the barrel. The current lock has no half cock notch that I can see, and the triggers are of the type that fire only from the set position. This would indicate to me that this lock was never a flintlock. Also if it had a different lock, it also must have had a different trigger system. An evaluation by someone with an extreme depth of knowledge on the subject of antique firearms, and no connection to this relic, would go a long way toward convincing me it’s the real thing.
Hungry Horse