AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Vaquero on June 28, 2023, 08:54:54 PM
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Hey everyone,
I’m looking to get a 50 caliber fast twist barrel (1-24”) for long distance shooting, and hunting. I have no experience with heavy grain conicals, I only shoot flintlock with patched roundball. Looking to possibly get a barrel from Oregon Rifle works, but I was told that they do not offer square bottom rifling.
For those who have experience, would that be an issue?
Thinking of getting the bore size to be .500, with a groove diameter of .510.
Thanks for your help,
Davison
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What do you consider long range?
Fleener
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It sounds like this gun will be “conical specific” and “long range specific” if it were mine, given those parameters I would opt for a square rifling, and a gain twist. And I would not cut the rifling overly deep. I also would consult some of the better barrel makers who are familiar with said bullets, range, and twist.
Hungry Horse
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A bullet barrel with RB rifling?? It does not sound like they understand how to make a bullet barrel.
My experience with RB rifling was terrible accuracy. I think that was because the grooves were narrow and to deep. No loadable combination made a seal.
I have also had a square bottom barrel that shot very poorly. The grooves were deep and narrow. No loadable combination made a seal.
I do not think it is that RB rifling can not work. I think that excessively deep rifling and narrow grooves do not work. Unfortunately, the RB barrels I am familiar with are made that way.
If a ML rifle/barrel can not shoot 1" or better at 50 yards I get rid of it.
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I practice shooting my flintlock out to about 200-250, so not much farther than that for hunting. But as for target shooting I’m on a ranch so 1,000 to 1,200 yards is not a difficultly.
Thanks for the input guys, that’s along the lines of what I was thinking.
Davison
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I know you did not ask this, but you stated that you do not have any experience with this type of shooting, so why a .50 and not a .45?
Fleener
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I guess I’m not set on it, just used to round ball and needing a larger diameter for the big game here in New Mexico. I suppose I could just use a heavier grain bullet (500-600) to do the job. I have heard the .40-.45 are a much flatter shooting option.
Is there much difference for the hunting yardages I proposed, or does the .45 really shine for the longer distances?
Davison
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Can you use a .45 cal bullet in a ML for large game where you hunt?
IF you are planning on shooting the .50 cal out to 1,000 yards or more, you will need a longer bullet to help stabilize it and it will be heavy.
.45 cal barrels for bullets are readily available as are bullets/molds.
Fleener
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Yes, thankfully 45 is the cut off for New Mexico. When you mention a long bullet for the 50, are we talking about some thing that would probably be heavier than 650 grains? If so, I can’t say I’m interested in shooting heavier than that.
So in case the 45 is an option, what would be an ideal twist range for the 45 if I’m trying to shoot 500 to 650 range bullets?
Thanks,
Davison
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A .50 cal bullet will be 600 grains or more most likely.
I shoot 45 cal conicals that are around 530 grains with 86 grains of 2F Swiss. Both paper patch and grease groove.
I have shot an unknown number of deer and targets out to 1,000 yards with .45 cal ML. I have I think 6 ML rifles in .45 cal with a fast twist barrel. Some are hunting only, and some are target rifles.
1 in 18 twist is what I use for barrels.
Fleener
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I sounds like you want to hunt with a slug gun? That is very specialized stuff. They are not practical for hunting.
Modern ML rifles are ballistically similar to slug guns. We do not discuss modern MLs here. IF you are a decent hunter then round balls are excellent. Get within 100 yards. In the real world that is pretty far.
Long range hunting with a low velocity rifle, regardless of bullet shape is not a good idea for most of us. Any error in distance determination will result in a miss of worse, a crippling shot.
Hunting is a one shot for score situation. It is possible to make impressive groups on paper way out there. Putting it in the impressive group, at distance, first shot if the day, at unknown distance, is pure luck for most of us.
Unfortunately all the arm chair theoretical stuff did not work for me when hunting real game. Animals never stood around waiting for me to calculate hold overs and wind drift. Instead I learned to be a better hunter, got closer, and shot straight.
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Maybe just use your flintlock and put the "hunt" back in hunting?
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Perhaps he should just use a spear?
But that does not answer his questions.
Fleener
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Thanks for the comments guys.
I definitely prefer a flintlock, but I do enjoy long distance target shooting nonetheless, and after hunting in NM for a while, I’ve noticed sometimes it’s just not enough gun for open range hunting, especially for oryx I’m the sands or bighorn sheep across a draw. And I don’t care to hunt if I can’t make meat.
Thanks for the suggestions…I think I know what direction I’ll go from here.
Davison
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Nipple burn out might be A concern
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Nipple burn out is certainly a concern. If you dont already know it, you will have to use a platinum lined nipple. They are not cheap, around $50 each.
I can put you in touch with my buddy in the USA that makes them if you need/want.
Fleener
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I have shot .50 cal black powder rifles at 1000 yards, and the .45 cal is much better for this kind of work. You have to maintain velocity to have a degree of effectiveness
and the ,50 requires a lot of powder and the bullet is heavy. When I fired a couple of shots on target [ 1000 yards] with 120 gr of FFg and a 725 gr PP bullet, the pit crew radioed back asking who was fired a mortar. The angle that the rounds were coming in at created a safety issue, and I stopped firing.
My flintlock rifle, built for long range was a .45 cal with groove depth and rifling designed for PP bullets. There's lots of information about this and a barrel maker should know what you need. Mine was designed after one of the british makers and shot lubed bulets very well also. 85 gr of FFg and a 535 gr PP bullet , or a grooved ,lubed bullet much like the Postel shape worked for me. The rifle had replaceable touch hole liners which lasted about 25 rounds before enlargement and resulting shifts in elevation became an issue. Berylium copper liners seemed to be good, I wanted to obtain a platinum liner but gave up on the practicality of a flintlock for this shooting, so never did. Hope this helps
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Hadn't thought of the angle of impact, but that is a good point, if there is a 1000yard pit crew.
Taylor's .50 having supihosatory riflke, 28" bl. and 24" twist with 600gr. PP bullet, 91gr. 2 1/2F Swiss, was nicely accurate at 1000 meters.
Round bottom will clean easier and I see no problems with negative results, if a soft bullet is used, and paper patched. I suspect grooved
lubed would also work.
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(https://i.ibb.co/mb3Z3fG/Inked20190225-111213-LI.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYsjs9k)
The pit at 1000 yds at the Ben Avery range in AZ. This pic taken before shooting started as picup would be moved out and all pit crew would be in a concrete block house out of pics view. Targets are raised/lowered by concrete ballast.
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Vaquero,
As others have said, if you are shooting out to 1000 yds or more you want a .45 cal., 1-18 twist, square bottom groove barrel. Barrels, bullets, moulds, wads etc. are all readily available. Also,
it would be nice if the gun weighed in the range of around 12 pounds, otherwise recoil can be a little much with bullets in the 530 - 560 gr. range. If your rifle is that heavy it my be difficult to lug it around all day. I have a 12lb. rifle that shoots a 550gr. bullet with 80 grs. of Swiss and recoil is not light. A mercury recoil suppressor in the butt stock makes it tolerable.
Good luck,
Kevin
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Having a heavy kicking hunting rifle is one thing, but for target shooting, the heavier the recoil, the worse the shooting will become as
the "shoot" progresses, I would imagine.
My hunting rifle shoots a 482gr. ball driven by 165gr. 2F. It has some recoil, but is entirely shootable with a little practice. It weighs 9 1/2 pounds, just
as Forsyth noted it should.
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The original .45 English sporting rifles had a weight limit of less than 10 lbs. Modern long-range matches are limited to 12 lbs.
All 4 of my .45 cal match rifles are less then 10 bs. I use 86 grains of Swiss 2f and a 530 grain bullet. Recoil is not bad.
If hunting you dont notice the recoil.
Fleener
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Not much to notice?
(https://i.ibb.co/KxKDkQk/aiming-n-shooting-140gr.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hKkyzy)
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Daryl
I always assumed that you were shooting at a target up on the hill. :P
Fleener
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Shooting prone on the 1000 yard targets was made comfortable by using a PAST recoil shield, and a shooting jacket with elbow "protectors" :) Long ago, I actually started out shooting a .38 cal and it did pretty well out to 600 yards , but in the end, ended up with the .45 . It's just the best IMO for this shooting.
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Look up a guy, if I remember correctly named "Idaho Lewis" on YouTube. On his channel he does really well using conical bullets with percussion rifles at long range out to 1000 yards. Even a standard Thompson Center 50 caliber Renegade will ring the gongs out to 500 yards or so with the proper bullet.
Bob
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Daryl
I always assumed that you were shooting at a target up on the hill. :P
Fleener
LOL - that rifle is a brute from prone. Had to wear a PAST shoulder protector for a couple years while torn cartilage healed up. Good now,
but not from prone.
The shoulder protector is vital, I would think, from prone. The elbow pads would save those, as well.
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Thats why you see so many shooting " pads " on the firing line for 1000 yd matches and shooters wearing jackets with shoulder inserts. ;)
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I always get a little concerned when I hear anybody who hasn’t hunted much with a muzzleloader start talking about long range, and big game hunting. I do understand the round ball, and the conical bullet, will carry a long way, but a steel target, or a paper bullseye, are not the same as big game. These bullet will physically carry to a game animal way the heck out there, but they have lost most of their effectiveness.
My son had a hunters safety instructor that got his first muzzleloader and decided to kill an elk with it. I told him it takes a lot shocking power to kill an elk. He’s a very stubborn guy, but, willing to listen to somebody who has been shooting Black powder for 50 years. He built a target to measure not only penetration, but also shock value. In the end he got a fine trophy bull with one shot at 96 yards, and said after testing his muzzleloader he wouldn’t take a shot on big game at over 100 yards.
Hungry Horse
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Thats why you see so many shooting " pads " on the firing line for 1000 yd matches and shooters wearing jackets with shoulder inserts. ;)
I have both for sale, just haven't had a chance to take pics yet. May post them up tomorrow.