AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Skirmisher on August 11, 2023, 09:58:35 PM
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I recently picked up a well-used flintlock rifle that I initially thought hailed from Pennsylvania. Upon doing a bit of research, I conclude it is Virginian, more specifically from the lower Shenandoah Valley area. Could be a product of the Sheetz clan but there are details that don't entirely fit any particular maker, at least to my eye.
So, here I am looking for opinions from those more knowledgeable than myself, as to is most likely to have built this unsigned piece, and about when?
This is a heavy rifle with a .556" caliber, 42.0" long swamped barrel. The barrel 1.12" at the breech, tapers to about 1.025" at 35 inches, then flares to1.10" at the muzzle.
There is some very nicely done relief paneling along the forearm and it appears as if there was once some paneling around the lock paels but otherwise no carving. The patchbox is ingraved and features 4 cutouts. The box still has remnants of animal fat now heavily oxidized.
The gun has set triggers that seem original to the piece and the trigger guard is somewhat narrow.
The sideplate features prominent horns, a detail seen on only a few rifles from this area. The lock is clearly a replacement, but done long ago. It would appear that the current lock was in use on this rifle for many, many years.
Finally, the unusually large .556" bore is rifle with 7 deep (.024") round bottom grooves. The grooves are a bit dirty looking but the bore is generally bright and quite serviceable.
Any thoughts you might offer are welcome. Rifles of this type are a bit out of my range of experience.
(https://i.ibb.co/bPps4Gz/PXL-20230804-175552694-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wRDSn2M)
(https://i.ibb.co/LgbbYNv/PXL-20230804-175634279-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GMBBnHF)
(https://i.ibb.co/fVRMGnT/PXL-20230804-175820588-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fkv6q0d)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1L7csr/PXL-20230804-175853195.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6HvqnT)
(https://i.ibb.co/7vF6tLg/PXL-20230804-175656884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZxwGjs)
(https://i.ibb.co/F0mCvHR/PXL-20230804-184035240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P9F0pDq)
(https://i.ibb.co/GdRyTnx/PXL-20230804-184106772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Tc2z4r)
(https://i.ibb.co/6HpvXVB/PXL-20230804-175801477-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6Mh4GS)
(https://i.ibb.co/tz8KkXH/PXL-20230804-175538438-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/68gwVBy)
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You got a nice rifle there!
Which show was this and who was the seller if you don't mind me asking? I am interested because of the 2nd model Virginia Manufactory rifle at the bottom of the rack.
Mike
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That is part of my table at last week's Long Rifle Show at Princeton, Illinois. My emphasis is pre-1861 militaries and that 1821-dated Virginia Manufactory Rifle was just part of my show and tells. I got my hands on that other Virginia flinter just the day before the show.
The VM rifle will hopefully stay with me awhile longer.
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The piercings on the patchbox looks like John Jacob Sheetz, Shepherdstown WV. See page 140 Gunsmiths of Virginia. However the engraving on the lid reminds me of John or Henry Sheets from Staunton,Virginia. . Thanks for sharing.
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Very nice! I have been looking for one of those VM rifles. There are some out there, but a lot are smooth bored. Does your still have rifling? I have a couple of Rifle Shoppe lock castings sets and I'd like to make one of the second models like you have and a copy of the very early 1803 first model with the brass "Don't Tread on Me" patch box and the traditional rifle styling
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/sKJQfjP/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkGtgMS)
(https://i.ibb.co/c8qD2hk/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FYpg84m)
(https://i.ibb.co/JzJQWXb/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHW8rQY)
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Yes, it is rifled and is .46" caliber. There is a nasty spot in the bore which has prevented me from shooting it. Bad welding spots are common in VM guns.
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For discussion here are some images
Gunsmiths of Virginia.
Shepherdstown John Jacob Sheetz. The shape of the patch box is nearly identical to yours.
(https://i.ibb.co/fv6FrT0/Page-140-Whisker.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dgCMkHK)
J Sheetz, page 139
(https://i.ibb.co/mBhd3Zb/J-Sheetz-Staunton-Page-139-GS-of-VA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CtV4fCm)
Attributed to John Sheetz of Stanton, Va
This patch box outline is again almost identical
(https://i.ibb.co/M69z4KB/John-Sheetz-Stanton-Page-143-Whisker.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYDNGfX)
(https://i.ibb.co/5Mz2vyq/John-Sheetz-Stanton-Page-143-Whisker-detail.jpg) (https://ibb.co/znLNbYK)
Another attributed to John Lauck with a similarly shaped patch box, but lacking the forward piercing. Page 40 Longrifles of Virginia
(https://i.ibb.co/TvgT6ch/John-Lauck-Winchester-page-40-LR-of-Va.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gx5Jy7P)
These are from KRA Volume I, Issue V Longrifles of the Shenandoah Valley
Attributed to J[ohn?] Sheetz of Staunton? I would agree as the signature looks almost identical to the signature on page 139 of Gunsmiths of Virginia
The patch box outline is different, but the side plates on both of these has the distinctive horns yours has.
(https://i.ibb.co/YWsDkh2/LC-119-John-Sheets-Shot-4-Poss-Staunton.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FWTswz6)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vw1mHRf/LC-119-John-Sheets-Shot-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wcksJV5)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZJB8z6H/LC-119-John-Sheets-Shot-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VNgSYWH)
Another attributed to John Sheetz
(https://i.ibb.co/PY2wtJp/LC-120-John-Sheets-Shot-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9vxsGBX)
(https://i.ibb.co/SV3BdZN/LC-120-John-Sheets-Shot-8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qmrpW2B)
Mike
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Yes, it is rifled and is .46" caliber. There is a nasty spot in the bore which has prevented me from shooting it. Bad welding spots are common in VM guns.
That is a shame that you can't shoot it. Perhaps the bad welding is why so many are smooth bored.
What is the rifling profile?
Mike
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Does your possibly Sheetz rifle have a star on the cheek piece?
Both the John Sheetz of Stanton have a similar star inlays. Also panel carving details on both are much like yours.
(https://i.ibb.co/mRPH4CT/LC-119-John-Sheets-Shot-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b6GrXgm)
(https://i.ibb.co/VggdnmF/LC-119-John-Sheets-Shot-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9bbJKtx)
(https://i.ibb.co/3W2rqjb/LC-120-John-Sheets-Shot-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCV0XPq)
(https://i.ibb.co/prZhs90/LC-120-John-Sheets-Shot-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHb6L0n)
Mike
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The piercings on the patchbox looks like John Jacob Sheetz, Shepherdstown WV. See page 140 Gunsmiths of Virginia. However the engraving on the lid reminds me of John or Henry Sheets from Staunton,Virginia. . Thanks for sharing.
Is there a known family connection between these three makers? Henry and John of Staunton seem to be very similar in style, but Henry might be later. This Henry Sheetz rifle from Issue V Shenandoah Valley Rifles has clearly been a percussion gun from the start.
(https://i.ibb.co/92Mrg31/LC-121-Henry-Sheets-Shot-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qn5KQjT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Mp9Xx2S/LC-121-Henry-Sheets-Shot-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Vb9dYC)
(https://i.ibb.co/SJMMym5/LC-121-Henry-Sheets-Shot-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x3BBLgX)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pw7KsFh/LC-121-Henry-Sheets-Shot-9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zGypWQR)
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Skirm.,
Check your messages,
Dave B
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For those who asked, there are no inlays on the cheekpiece. This is a relatively plain rifle. The feature that most amazes me is the very large .55 caliber bore. Whisker's books ignore the all -important issue of bore size but most of the Sheetz rifles seem to have been of much smaller caliber. This is the largest original rifled bore I ever saw on an.American long rifle.(My exposure to the has been admittedly limited).
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I have a few Virginia rifles, and we find some 50s in the earlier rifles. I mean 1800-1820. After that mostly small.
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John Jacob Sheetz rubbing
(https://i.ibb.co/9cL2wbZ/Page-73-VA-Rifle-Rubbings-Dick-Adams073.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYSRK4W)
& more rubbings.
https://hampshirecountylongrifle.blogspot.com/search?q=patchbox+sunday
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Skirmishes,
Please tell me more about the Davidson North Carolina School longriflre that is in the middle of the display stand on your first photo. Is it signed? Is it for sale? I would enjoy seeing additional photographs of it. My email address is mbriggs@callcoverage.com if you would rather not post them here.
Thanks,
Michael Briggs
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Michael- It is not signed but I have presumed it to be a Henry Ledford. I have had it some 35 years and I will take more pictures.