AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: monro1066 on August 17, 2023, 12:07:33 AM
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With the many Angstadts out there ,and not having good reference at hand either hard copy books or inet images
any biographical information would be greatly appreciated .
TY in advance
Don
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That's a later guy, not sure who his father was but Dave or Noel might know. This is not the Peter Angstadt who was making the very funky lion-carved rifles (amongst other funky rifles) in Rockland twp Berks and died in 1815.
This P.C. Angstadt also made a really killer pipe hawk, it's in one of the books but I don't remember which one. For some reason I think he might have been working in the Kutztown area later on but not positive.
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Don,
Nice rifle, not my area of expertise. My guess (without referencing my notes) would be this individual comes from the line of Abraham Anstadt. Abraham moved West to Ohio and then settled in Indiana.
Noel
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Don,
Very nice rifle!
Based on the research I have, this maker is likely the one Buck suggests - Peter Angstadt born in Berks County Pa in 1807, and later working / died in Indiana. He was the son of gunsmith Abraham Angstadt.
Your Peter's father Abraham was born in Berks County. Abraham's father almost had to be Adam, noted below (Adam lived in Berks between roughly 1740-1812) but Abraham's birth record has not been found). If Adam was not Abraham's father, it would have had to be one of Adam's brothers - but I think one brother had moved from the area by the time Abraham was born, and no evidence has been found that the other brothers were gunsmiths. And the earlier gunsmith Adam's son Peter (Berks 1763-1815) could not have been your Peter's father because he had a child several months earlier the same year Abraham was born.
Shortly after Abraham married in 1806 he moved to near Orwigsburg, in what is now Schuylkill County, Pa., in around 1806 to 1810. He then moved his family to Indiana sometime between 1830 and 1840 when Peter was around 23 to 33 years old. So, the fellow who made your rifle likely started making guns while they were still in the Orwigsburg area.
Abraham's guns are sometimes attributed to Adam Angstadt (Berks / Kutztown maker abt 1740-abt 1812) when you search for examples. I don't believe there are actually any rifles signed by Adam, that I am aware of. I did not do any research on your Peter in Indiana, so do not have a date he died or anything - this is all I have.
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In the 1850 Montgomery County Ohio, German township Census, there is a gunsmith Peter Angstadt, age 41. Ohio Book, Vol. III page 223.
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That's interesting, I'll bet that is him! Maybe he went off on his own into Ohio instead of staying in Indiana?
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Dave, have you ever found another Peter Angstadt somewhere in Berks - possibly Kutztown - during approximately the same period as the "Rockland Peter" or perhaps a bit later (say, into the 1820s-1830s) that was *not* the Rockland Peter but was also a gunsmith?
I distinctly remember someone telling me or showing me something many years ago about a Peter Angstadt in Kutztown but I don't recall ever trying to verify.
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I didn't find any other Peter Angstadts who were gunsmiths but I could be missing someone. The only "Peter" gunsmiths I found were:
-Peter (son of Adam 1763-1815 Rockland Twp)
-Peter (likely son of Abraham, as we are discussing (1807-?? Ohio / Indiana)
I looked back at my notes and had the following about the one in Ohio:
from my notes: "Peter Angstadt, Born 1807. A “gunsmith” living in Germany, Montgomery County, Ohio, between 1838-1850. By 1860, he was living in Cicero, Tipton, Indiana and noted as a farmer. His wife was Elizabeth (Bonner) born in Maryland. " They had a daughter born in Ohio in 1838.
I found several other Peter Angstadts in Berks but none I found were described as gunsmiths. Two of them were shoemakers.
- The 1767-1768 Robeson Township tax lists show at least two early Peter Angstadt. In 1767 there was on Peter there with 50-acres. In 1768, there was one with "3 acres cleared and two mills" and another on the "single men" portion of the tax lists. John Reiffsnyder (probably the later Reading gun maker) was on the same Robeson single men's tax list for 1768. By 1770 neither this Peter Angstadt nor John Reifsnyder were listed in robeson. No occupations were shown for Robeson.
- The 1820 census lists a Peter Angstadt over age of 45, occupation unknown. Him and his wife sold a property in 1824 (he was just listed as a "yoeman").
- The 1850 census lists a Peter Angstadt in Kutztown born about 1810 a shoemaker.
- The 1850 census lists a Peter Angstadt in Rockland Twp, born in 1820, a shoemaker.
Also saw in my notes that in the 1850 census Abraham was still living in Germantown, Wayne, Indiana and had a son there named Adam (another clue for Abraham's father). This Adam was born in about 1826 and was a gunsmith also, living in the house of his parents.
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Don,
Jeff Jaeger is the Indiana expert and has researched the Anstadts time there. I would guess your rifle to be of Ohio origin, Jeff might be able to help in this instance.
Noel
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Thankyou all for the info and comments etc
Don
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From “All About Abraham,” by John Angstadt:
“Peter was born about 1807. As a youth he would have been a gunsmith apprentice to his father, becoming a Journeyman Gunsmith by 1828. He moved to Ohio about 1835, marrying Elizabeth Benner in 1836. They probably lived with her parents for several years; Peter was not listed as head of a household in the 1840 Census. By 1850, of course, he was so listed in the census of that year. From 1837 to 1850 they had three sons and three daughters. In 1851 they sold their home in German Township, Montgomery County, OH and moved to Cicero Township, Tipton County, IN. There Peter eventually reunited with brother Adam and sisters Elizabeth and Catherine (Katherina). Another son and three daughters, born from 1853 to 1864, completed their family. Peter's precise date of death is not known, but it was about 1865-70. His burial place is also unknown.”
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Dave,
Abraham naming his sons Adam and Peter eludes to the obvious regarding his lineage. We haven’t thrown it around in a while - figure I’d kick the dust up a bit.
Buck
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Noel, I completely agree. Not a coincidence!
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Dave,
Have you reviewed the Susquehanna Section of the Library? They list Gideon Angstadt as a builder from the area and mention a signed rifle. Myself, Eric and Patrick H have discussed this elusive signed Gideon Rifle, have you ever seen this purported "ghost" ?
Buck
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I'm still looking myself but thus far, a big nada. I'd want a bit more than a late rifle with a "GA" on it too!
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I have never seen a signed Gideon Angstadt rifle though I can't say I have been actively looking. Knowing he was a late gunsmith it would seem likely that one exists? Although he did die at the relatively young age of 54.
It would be interesting to see a signed one to look for consistency in design to other Angstadt guns.
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Dave - somewhere in one of the 'old' books there was mention of a rifle *signed* by Gideon Angstadt, but unfortunately I've yet to encounter anyone who has ever seen one.
The attributions are all interesting, but there is not a consistency among them (to my mind) and without having a signed piece as a basis for comparison, how accurate can an attribution be?
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Eric / Dave,
I have seen two that are identical in architecture and decor. Patrick owned one of them (pictured in his Berks CO book) and I owned the other and I don't recall seeing another like them. I can't speak for Patrick but if memory serves correctly he had only heard of a signed rifle but never laid eyes on it. How the attribution came about was discussed but I can't recall the details.
Like they say in Mexico, Sancho is like the devil. He exists but you never see him!
Noel
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Noel and Eric, to complicate things further, there were likely a few other (maybe unknown) Kutztown area makers responsible for some of the other unsigned funky pieces occassionally seen around from the early 1800’s. Throw these in mix and that really confuses things!
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Was just doing a little searching and found this. No photo of the signature though. Anyone know this rifle?
Poulin auction May 2022.
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Just "GA" but I find that fairly believable - it sure LOOKS like an Angstadt, doesn't it?
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Looking back through my insane amount of picture files, I can say that someone here has an unsigned rifle that was clearly made by this same guy and is just a bit less elaborate. So, if this rifle above is in fact Gideon, then it puts a name on the unsigned piece because to my mind they definitely look to have been made by the same man. Maybe we're getting somewhere with Gideon!
Maybe the owner might be willing to post some photos?
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Eric / Dave,
That’s interesting. A GA initial doesn’t sell me, though the rifle screams Angstadt. Dave, was there a George Angstadt that was a gunsmith or were they all farmers and weavers? The Gideon rifle that I owned is in the library here, Eric is this the rifle you eluded to?
Buck
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Buck I can't find it. Link?
I got the photos I have from someone else here who had it at the time and it's unsigned but sure does look like the same maker of the Poulin rifle above, including same weird two-piece sideplates.
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Eric - the link:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16882.0
Gable picked it up after I had sold it.
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I guess if that is signed GA I am sold! And Eric you are correct there was one by the same maker posted a couple of months ago.
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Can you find the post? I don't remember how I got the photos I have, only who had the rifle. I may have gotten them directly or I may have lifted them from here.
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Oops, found it. Rifle in first post:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=76143.msg758851#msg758851
That clearly (to my eye) is the same guy, so if the Poulin rifle is Gideon, this one (link above) sure seems to be also.
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I agree! There aas a pistol somewhere online made by him also, a couple months ago.
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The more I look at this Poulin rifle: I find it practically impossible to NOT see it as an Angstadt rifle. It's 19th century. It has a lot of inlays held on with tiny iron tacks, which is practically an 'up the river' calling card. And we have a GA on lock, and a G * (is there more on barrel? picture is oddly cut off) on barrel. I think I'd accept this as Gideon, probably one of his earlier working pieces. And the other piece that was posted here last year - hard not to see it as the same maker, and probably about the same period whenever that may be.
IF these two pieces are Gideon, then a number of questions are raised because pieces attributed to him are all over the map. Either a lot of the attributions are wrong, or he was dramatically changing his style and was borderline schizophrenic. I find the former to be more believable, especially given the propensity of all of us to frequently speculate upon unsigned works and want very much to put names on pieces that are unsigned.
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Check out the Gideon pistol (unsigned) on the aaawt website.
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I went through their site and don't see anything?
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I am away and not at my computer but gt this photo using my iphone. They refer to it as a southeastern pa flintlock pistol.
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Ok, found it, now that I can see the added pics of the sideplate side, same weird sideplates. Very intersting.
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Having a moment to reflect on the poulin rifle, wow what a work of art! I think it is exciting to finally connect the dots on what Gideon Angstadt guns looked like. And he seems to have been quite gifted as an artist also. It would be interesting to see this signed lock.
There are a handful of rifles by Adam, his son Joseph, and now Joseph’s son Gideon - that to me are really unique and incredible works of folk art. To me the Neff rifle is a bit over-the-top; Peter Angstadt’s rifles are neat but to me a bit crude; Abraham Angstadt rifles are fine but a bit odd - there is something about the ones by Adam (suspected), and his son Joseph and Gideon that seem like they reach another level of abstract art. Does any one else feel this way? Somehow they just work visually despite not being as refined in workmanship as other makers.
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Noel, sorry I missed your question. I never found reference to a gunsmith named George Angstadt.
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Eric,
I agree in review of the 4 rifles that they are made by the same hand. I’d like to see the actual signature / initials and compare the A to those of Adam, Peter, Abraham, and Peter (Abrahams Son). That would be the final sell for me. You won’t get an argument out of me that these are Angstadt rifles but attributing it to Gideon without the observation of the signature keeps me on the fence.
Dave - great find. I’ll review my research in the AM for a George. If there’s no George, and we can get a visual on the signature then I can confidently call it a Gideon along with the other 3.
Noel
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I know this thread didn't start with Gideon, but lacking a full signature and only initials doesn't convince me the subject rifle is also a Gideon. Attached are the two attributed Gideons I owned - both have been attributed to Gideon over many years and with many owners. The less decorated one is probably the same one Buck and Ron Gable owned as I bought it from Gable many years ago at KRA, Carlisle. It may also be the same one in the other pic by Simens.
The fancier one is the one I owned for years and is my Berks book. It was bought by a guy who specialized on Gideon's upper Susquehanna guns and he was absolutely convinced these are by Gideon, and until something better like a full signed rifle comes up - I do too.
And I don't think the subject rifle above is similar enough to attribute it to the two rifles I show here (attributed to Gideon). The initials could also be George Avery, a Hamburg, Berks gunsmith about the same period. Never seen one of Avery's but Hamburg is Simon Miller territory, the earlier gunsmith, and not far from Upper Susquehanna/Schuylkill County.
Secondly, I don't see enough similarity to the two attributed Gideon's to the subject's patchbox and I see no carving of any kind on the 2 above Gideons. And I don't see any of those quirky regional engraved designs Stophel Long and Carl and Jacob George put on their brass - kind of a wave on the center of their box lids like this better Gideon has.
Just my thought, but I have to defer from calling the subject rifle a work of the other two rifles Gideon Angstadt or not - it must be some other GA, than the two shown here. we best wait for more solid info on Gideon before calling this one of his, particularly since we aren't positive about Gideon's work. In short, since none of them have positive Gideon Angstadt identifiers, maybe none are.
Patrick Hornberger
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