AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: HighUintas on September 08, 2023, 08:03:54 AM
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What are everyone's thoughts on this one? Are there any red flags for this being a forgery?
Something doesn't look right to me...
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__S__HAWKEN_MARKED_PERCUSSION_PLAINS_RIFLE_-lot569349.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__S__HAWKEN_MARKED_PERCUSSION_PLAINS_RIFLE_-lot569349.aspx)
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I am by no means excessively knowledgeable about Hawken, but do the lock panels look right?
The front and back appear to be wrong to me.
Don
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It looks right to me. I haven’t handled a lot of S. Hawken rifles but I’ve handled one a lot. It’s typical in my view (average), no historical ties, very nice, and maybe that’s the price now for such a rifle. Interested to hear from others.
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NICE RIFLE FOR SURE---
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It looks like a mouse to me , what stands out the most to me is the nose cap and entry pipe but there are many things that don't look right to me .
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Sold for $19,600.00, I am glad it's his money and not mine, it may be right as rain but too many questions for that price in my opinion. I don't think the wood looks to be 175 yrs old. Just look at how tight the inletting is after all these years. Where is the metal corrosion caused by those early corrosive caps. All the handling marks looks like it was used and not stored away somewhere but so much still looks as crisp as it might have been off the makers bench.
Guess I am to cynical.
Dennis
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Guess I am to cynical.
Dennis
Too cynical, I don't think so.
John
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It looks like an applied antique finish on it and the name stamp is stamped at an angle I believe on purpose. It might be a Arkansas Hawken ......... I pity whoever bought that one !
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High Uintas, you have a good eye. I don't know if it is original, but I note the following: The butt plate is Track's Jim Bridger, no original like it. The rear trigger guard loop is not at right angles to the stock, but not all were. The snail is too deep in the lock plate. Originals are shallow. I haven't seen an original rear sight like that (Track's RSA-H Sante Fe), but Sam Hawken said something like "It doesn't matter what sights I put on, they'll change them anyway." The nose cap is too bright to be original silver plated steel. The entry pipe is Track's RP-Hawk-TE-7-I. No original has that high a hump. The rod pipes are short (OK) but too small in diameter. All I have measured are 1/2 inch inside diameter. The front sight is too close to the muzzle. The key heads are larger than usual. The lock panels look correct and are tapered to the rear. The cheek piece looks correct. The name stamping looks correct. If it is a fake, it was skillfully aged.
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What are everyone's thoughts on this one? Are there any red flags for this being a forgery?
Something doesn't look right to me...
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__S__HAWKEN_MARKED_PERCUSSION_PLAINS_RIFLE_-lot569349.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__S__HAWKEN_MARKED_PERCUSSION_PLAINS_RIFLE_-lot569349.aspx)
Pull the barrel off and you might see T.K.Dawson,Williamsport,Ind and gun # ????
Bob Roller
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Guess I am to cynical.
Dennis
Too cynical, I don't think so.
John
Caveat Emptor!
Bob Roller
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the tang and the entry pipe look to have been sanded and several other places . The K and the N in HAWKEN are unique but this is stamped in such a way the you can not compare them . The nose cap does not fit right and looks like a poured nose cap . Too bad we can't see under the barrel !! I pity the person that purchased it !!
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That deep into the lock plate snail was the first thing I noticed. I have seen about a hundred originals and I don't ever remember seeing one cut in so deep. :-\
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The nose cap is poured pewter, but it looks quite shiny to be 180 some years old. The breech plug is a modern part. It joins the barrel at a right angle in front. All originals I have seen, or pictures of them, have a curve here. I don't know what the lock is, and I don't know of a plug and tang to fit a barrel that is 1 7/16" at front, probably tapered and larger at the breech. The triggers match Track's TR-LR-1300. The trigger guard matches TR-Hawk-L-I. We mentioned the entry pipe before. The geometry of the buttstock is correct.
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[quote author=moseswhite
It looks like an applied antique finish on it and the name stamp is stamped at an angle I believe on purpose. It might be a Arkansas Hawken ......... I pity whoever bought that one !
Sounds like it may have come from Arkansas.
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Possible restoration from an original barrel and maybe a few parts. Does the .58 caliber and walnut stock on an otherwise late rifle bother anyone?
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Looks like the Kephart Hawken to me. And the Bridger as well for that matter. Might be a Gemmer made rifle. Since according to Baird he still had percussion Mountain Rifles in stock in 1894. Its never really been used as a rifle would be that went to the mountains. But then the Kephart rifle was new old stock IIRC. This rifle could easily be 40 years separated from the 1830s J&S marked rifles. If someone that KNOWS could look at the STAMP and somehow know its “wrong” it might be a clue but on a late rifle like this how would we know for certain it was “wrong”. It appears to have the same, well very similar brown varnish found on the Bridger rifle. The shaping looks like “late Hawken” to me. The buttplate looks OK. Pewter tip? They had pewter, iron and horn tips. Sure it could have been done by TK Dawson perhaps. But chances are its just what its claimed to be.
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The breech plug is a modern casting. Period breech plugs were sculpted around the front.
(https://i.ibb.co/DLyJmcM/h2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M94vKw1)
I've seen very few modern gunmakers get this detail correct. They all seem to use castings as-is and leave the front straight.
(https://i.ibb.co/Qk7zdwC/h3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwKMLnC)
The entry pipe is also a modern Track casting.
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Here's another photo of the breech plug sculpting. The shaping of the upper front lock panel as it transitions into the lock bolster also doesn't look quite correct. The lock bolster should be filed at an angle so the wood and bolster transition into the barrel together without the flat spot.
(https://i.ibb.co/C7P0MjP/h4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2tZKszZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/WB9bsGW/h5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HGvWXBD)
Thank Herb for the photos.
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Here is Track's modification of the GRRW Bridger Commemorative buttplate. It was cast in 1979 or thereabouts. It did not exist as a casting back in Hawkens' day.
(https://i.ibb.co/yRp07sm/TOW-Bridger-buttplate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7dyhgb)
Here it is compared to the Kit Carson buttplate. The black mark indicate how much I file off to match original Hawken buttplates.
(https://i.ibb.co/VCshFHy/JB-BP-on-Carson-Photo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2MTLz82)