AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: hortonstn on October 02, 2023, 02:49:35 AM
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I've not shot much off hand but decided at 71 I need to learn I've spent 30 plus years in the bench game I've built many off hand rifles so here is my story
40 cal gm barrel 40 fff 395 ball .20 oxyoke patch shooting at 33yards
I benched it and shot 8 shots to the right in a 1-1/2 group 3 inches right
I moved sights as far as I could ( without makeing the rifle look stupid)
Then I tried off hand same distance I shot 5 inches left no group
I think my stance was good and I was close to center when I fired
Love my Flintlock but what do I do ?
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Are you left handed? Flinching left, or - you moved the sights too far, by quite a bit.
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Yes left handed
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One thing to check is actual patch thickness. A lot of the (store bought) patches are not as thick as advertised.
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Yes left handed
When a right handed person flinches, they normally shoot to the right, oft times low. Opposite for a left handed shooter.
Shooting off the bags, helps hold the gun "on" whereas when shooting offhand, it's harder to follow through the shot until
the ball leaves the barrel. I could quite easily shoot my .45 and .40 off the bench, making very tight groups. It is extremely
difficult for me not to flinch when shooting offhand, with a flint lock.
The last Ox Yoke patches I measured, said .018" but were .015" the way I measure them. I suspect the .020's might actually
be .017 or .018".
Perhaps you should shoot it again from the bench and see what happens with your sight movement.
I find it is best to only change one thing at a time.
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I have found something similar. Applies to both ML and modern rifles with optics.
That is it is important understand the basics of marksmanship. I allow I had a brief crash course in Marine boot camp.
I believe you understand sight alignment, breath control, and trigger press.
Not often recognized is your stance , or natural point of aim.
I found that when I made this "right" when I pre-mounted before placing my cheek on the stock - my rifle / and barrel were pointing slightly to the right - off the backer. I shoot right handed.
Then, when I brought the rifle to cheek it was on the target. DO Take The Whole Shot. Meaning a long follow through. Be sure you are on target AFTER the shot.
Also, I found with optical sights my bench zero was different than my offhand zero. Offhand required that I add a half inch of right windage.
So I set up my Flintlock to shoot just slightly right of the aim point from the bench.
Just my experience.
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I think, being 71 could be the problem, being well beyond that age myself, I’d check the following, loss of muscle mass, bad knees, bad back, sore hip joints, or just overall dizziness, not to mention degenerative eyesight. A little pinch of a couple of these issues can really screw up your accuracy. I have a little of all of those plus the residuals from a stroke, So I know how hard it is to get your shooting skills back after you made your three score and ten. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
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As Hungry Horse said, sometimes it’s like trying to get a blown out old car that’s not running on all cylinders up to highway speed.
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Thanks I appreciate your help
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I 'cheat' and practice with my .22. (With iron sights). It's proven to be an invaluable tool for improving my shooting in general.
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Jakob, that is not cheating.
Hortonstn, if you want to shoot well offhand, you have to shoot offhand a lot. if you have a rifle that shoots accurately of the bench, re sight it offhand.
You said that you have been shooting bench for 30 years. You will never hold a rifle standing as still as you can off a bench. Your rifle will move, find your wobble and live with it. Every day it will be different. A lot of shooting offhand is between the ears.
I scoffed at a friend some 25 years ago when he said he sights all his rifles offhand. I found that he was right.
I've been doing the same for about fifteen years. The only rifles that I would sight off the bench, would be a bench rifle.
Don't be confused with load development and sighting. They are two different things.
You may want to do what Jakob is doing. practice with an iron sighted .22. If you can't shoot a .22 well offhand, you will never shoot a flintlock well offhand.
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Work on your shooting stance. Set trigger or plain trigger? If you have a plain trigger DO NOT use the finger tip. Use the portion of the finger between the joints. Using the tip will cause movement of the rifle. Usually right for a left handed shooter left of a left. ::)
Don’t shoot it like a shotgun I.E. facing the target. We are not shooting at flying birds. In your case, a left hander, your right shoulder should be pointed “downrange”. Pretty near at the target. Depending on the person. You might also work on upper body strength. (Something I need as well)
Feet should be about shoulder width apart. On a level surface moving the “back” foot can raise or lower the point of aim. This may not be that useful if the NMLRA stance with the hand well out on the forend is used.
I shoot much better with a set trigger standing than with a single trigger unless its very light.
Finally, as much as possible RELAX.
Just some thoughts.
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Put a post-it note on a wall with a suitable sized dot on it and dry fire. Adjusting stance to find the best position. If you have a single trigger use a wooden flint for a FL or a pad or brass sleeve over the nipple on percussion rifles. If using et triggers just put the cock/hammer down all the way and fire just the trigger. This will greatly help in refining your stance. And get in the habit of staying on the gun. IE in position, cheek weld etc. till the bullet strikes to target. “Coming off the gun” too soon is poison. Dry firing will also help you to see what is happening to sight/target alignment as the trigger breaks, especially with a single trigger. If you can video yourself in live fire and see what you might be doing wrong or have someone experienced watch you shoot. If the trigger is more than 3 1/2-4 pounds it needs adjusting . HOWEVER. It must then stand what I call my “mallet test” which mean jarring the gun with a soft light mallet or block of wood to assure that the sear does not pop out of the notch with THREE impacts. Usually on the barrel or buttplate. But lock tuning is a WHOLE other book length post so….
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I think, being 71 could be the problem, being well beyond that age myself, I’d check the following, loss of muscle mass, bad knees, bad back, sore hip joints, or just overall dizziness, not to mention degenerative eyesight. A little pinch of a couple of these issues can really screw up your accuracy. I have a little of all of those plus the residuals from a stroke, So I know how hard it is to get your shooting skills back after you made your three score and ten. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
Yeah 73. Back injuries from a gov’t vacation in my youth. Not working out etc etc. I did finally get my right eye fixed.
A guy I used to do a lot of gun work for at one time fell off a mountain once and what he did to get rid of the double vision was dry firing with a revolver with no cylinder while in recovery in the hospital. Sliding down slope a rock took off a significant part of his face and his eyes looked in two different places. Concentrating on the sights reprogramed them he told me. And they pretty well put his face back on too, But he wears sunglasses all the time.
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Good "stuff" Dan.
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Another thing you might look into is if your gun has been your primary shooter for a while, is where the rear sight is, and how well you can see not only it, but your front sight, and the target. Getting all those where they are as sharp as your vision will allow is very important. Teddy Roosevelt wrote a lot about sights for poor eyes. And there is a lot on this board that have as well. Good Luck
Hungry Horse
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Good "stuff" Dan.
Thanks. But the trigger finger thing should read right for a RIGHT handed shooter. I gotta learn to proof read better or type better. Sometimes my fingers say things I don’t intend….
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Everything Dan posted is excellent advise. Only thing I would add, is Stay inside your sights!
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Every day it will be different.
I think this might be the hardest part. I know what I *can* do, but quite often, when I start a session, I'm nowhere near.
So, with the .22, I'll shoot maybe 25 rounds. First 5-10 shots, is just going through the motions and then I'll start focusing more and more on the mount, trigger pull, breathing. Still shooting fairly rapid. Last 5-10 shots I then start to focus on shooting the same way every shot. This will typically be a 4" group at 25 meters.
Then I'll put up a new target and try to shoot 5 good shots. These should be under 2".
Then if it's just a rimfire day, I'll go to the bench, shoot some of the smaller metal targets at 50 meters and maybe even 100, which will focus my aiming and then go back to offhand at 25 and I should be closer to 1" group.
On some days, though, it just ain't there. Not enough food, sleep, etc will all easily affect how I shoot that day...or some days, I got no excuses. Those, I just focus on the process and try not to stress too much over the crappy results.
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Every day it will be different.
I think this might be the hardest part. I know what I *can* do, but quite often, when I start a session, I'm nowhere near.
So, with the .22, I'll shoot maybe 25 rounds. First 5-10 shots, is just going through the motions and then I'll start focusing more and more on the mount, trigger pull, breathing. Still shooting fairly rapid. Last 5-10 shots I then start to focus on shooting the same way every shot. This will typically be a 4" group at 25 meters.
Then I'll put up a new target and try to shoot 5 good shots. These should be under 2".
Then if it's just a rimfire day, I'll go to the bench, shoot some of the smaller metal targets at 50 meters and maybe even 100, which will focus my aiming and then go back to offhand at 25 and I should be closer to 1" group.
On some days, though, it just ain't there. Not enough food, sleep, etc will all easily affect how I shoot that day...or some days, I got no excuses. Those, I just focus on the process and try not to stress too much over the crappy results.
Serious practice needs to be just that. "Just shooting" can develop bad habits. Its REALLY easy to do. If I practice for standing I take it seriously flintlock or otherwise. I make a score call to myself and evaluate each shot and watch to see what happens when the trigger breaks in dry fire. Its necessary to get in the habit of doing it right every time. And some days are better than others. In the "serious" shooting game I play I generally shoot in the mid/low-90s at 200 yards standing and sometimes 97 or 99 with a 7" 10 ring, but its easier than shooting a flintlock for several reasons. Other days its not as good. Standing especially is as much a mind game as it is physical.
Dan
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Dan, sound like we are at about the same level, Expert to Master depending on the day in Service rifle.
Here are some things to consider, it is how I do it to good effect. Keep your support arm supported by your body. Do not reach out for the muzzle like the tacticool and carbine guys do. Try to set up like the second shooter.
Get an air gun and practice.
Consider an exercise class. My wife convinced me to go to pilaties classes. Tai-Che might also be usefull. Do not hurt yourself. That is why I refused yoga. I am 61. I am stiff and was never flexible. After years of inactivity it got much worse. The instructor has me working fine muscles is did not know I had. Coordinating those fine muscles reduces wobble. Strengthening them increases how long I can shoot well. It is helping my scores.
Do not do this:
https://www.letsgoshooting.org/resources/articles/rifle/seven-tips-to-perfecting-the-rifle-standing-position/
(https://i.ibb.co/mRcMdqf/off-hand-2670097926.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Do some variation of this:
(https://i.ibb.co/GCb17TL/6b755fc287dbe366f6067dbbf2832d81-1267851691.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CVTXB2Z)
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That was basically my shooting stance when I was younger and shooting a lot of matches. However now that I'm older with bad shoulders I find that stance much more difficult to get into and be steady. I'm sure others do also. So sometimes I set up my shot with foot position etc. then hold the rifle down the forearm to shoot. Works sometime.
To be young again....
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What a wealth of knowledge and information here!! Thank you gentlemen!
Tony
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The Olympic Style as observed in the second photo is fine, if you can do this. I haven't been able to shoot in this manner for many years - since maybe early 1970's after
I broke my back.
This is an actual offhand (off the hands) position I have to use now.
(https://i.ibb.co/Wn5fZkk/cid-98-E0-D5-BF-F282-463-E-A8-CD-91-EBEAE69-D22local.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tc2t644)
(https://i.ibb.co/rQ7NTWy/cid-60-C1-E34-C-7-AC8-4-D74-9-E25-C4-D1204-C0-E3-Alocal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K50SR1y)
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Buy David Tubb's book 'All I know about High Power Rifle Shooting!' He'll teach you all about how to shoot standing!!
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Back about a hundred years ago when I only shot off hand I always had my favorite rifle leaning by the doorway between kitchen drinking room. I would pic that rifle up and aim on a spot on a wall 50% of the times I passed. Then in the winter when it was too cold to shoot out side, I slipped a piece of shrink tube on the sear and would (dry fire the triggers) on that spot many times every day. I thought it helped .
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I've seen at lot of clays shooters automatically assume a shotgun stance when approaching off-hand rifle shooting. The shotgun stance makes the body lean into the target and become a swivel mechanism whereas the rifle stance makes the body an erector set. If you shoot a lot of clays, that may be the problem.
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That "clays" stance or one very similar is used when shooting heavy recoil rifles, like the NE guns on dangerous game. For accurate standing shooting as close to the Olympic style of "standing shooting", if possible, will usually give the best results.
I say "if possible" as some of us with back trouble cannot stand that way.
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I always thought that " clays " stance was best in a hunting type situation when you might be required to make a moving shot. You can swing and follow through better with that stance\hold. IMHO.
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That too. It is a terrific recoil absorber. If my MLs kicked, that's the stance I would use. ::)
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I've seen at lot of clays shooters automatically assume a shotgun stance when approaching off-hand rifle shooting. The shotgun stance makes the body lean into the target and become a swivel mechanism whereas the rifle stance makes the body an erector set. If you shoot a lot of clays, that may be the problem.
I shot nothing but Skeet and Sporting Clays for over ten years. My shotgun stance is nothing like that. It is a natural stance with my left foot pointed in the direction I expect the bird to fly. The back is upright and relaxed, and the gun is down off my shoulder. It doesn't come up until I see the bird. This translates well to shooting wild birds in the field.
If I am moving and a bird flushes, I step in the direction of the bird with my gun going up at the same time. the shot is taken as the gun comes to the shoulder. Nothing to think about except to watch the bird.
I have one rifle and one smoothbore which I hold the way Daryl holds his rifle. They are too short and light to hold any other way.
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its like this, you are flinching. and it only takes a slight flinch to be way off target. it is a mental thing, that is what you have to overcome. one thing i tell people that sometimes helps a lot is to count 1-2-3 when pressing the trigger, of course you will not get past one before the gun goes off. but it makes you concentrate. always put it in your mind that you will not move that front sight off the target. hope this helps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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One of the biggest challenges is flinching and anticipation your shot. That’s a game wrecker, but not unique to just shooting off-hand. So you are probably conscious of that.
Another focus is on holding the gun upright. Kanting the gun ( tilting it outward or inward) will throw your shot to one side or the other, whichever angle your tilting it to.
Stance is talked about ad infinitum. I was recently told after a match that my stance is wrong and that I lean back too much. This was right after I beat the gentleman in our club shoot and came in third place.
To me, it’s just following the basics but most importantly it’s about relaxing, focusing, not anticipating the shot ( biggest issue for me) and follow through.
I am certainly no expert on the matter and I am still learning. These are just some things that help me.
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It is important to stress that an offhand rifle be sighted in offhand. I’ve watched a good shooter practice for an hour off the bench every week for years trying to dial in his gear and load. He never was in the running for a medal. You can’t exactly replicate the same head position, and you have many unconscious visual cues good or bad you’ve got to learn how to do the dance on your feet. I don’t know what part of Missouri you’re in but we have a weekly offhand match in southwest Missouri. If you’re interested.
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With all of my rifles sighted on off a bench, they hit exactly the same when I shoot them offhand, or sitting elbow rest.
When shooting off the bench, I hold the forend the same as when shooting offhand, but rest the back of my hand on the sand bag.
The result is identical point of impact. This also works with ALL of my CF rifles. No rear bag is used.
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With all of my rifles sighted on off a bench, they hit exactly the same when I shoot them offhand, or sitting elbow rest.
When shooting off the bench, I hold the forend the same as when shooting offhand, but rest the back of my hand on the sand bag.
The result is identical point of impact. This also works with ALL of my CF rifles. No rear bag is used.
Exactly? You mean you shoot the same groups offhand as you do of a bench, or are you saying the center of your groups are approximately where the center of your bench shot groups are?
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"they hit exactly the same" Of course I was saying point of impact. No one shoots the same group size in any other position
compared to bench. No one.
When testing double rifles for barrel regulation, the Brits use a standing bench, but holding the rifle just as if
shooting offhand. They rest the back of the barrels-holding hand on a sand bag, exactly the same as I do sitting
at a bench. The POI's are identical to shooting offhand.
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Something Flintlock shooters especially new ones will do is to shift there eye they are sighting with when the trigger is pulled to follow the fall of the frizzen. They will not know they are doing it.
A test is to take there flintlock dummy load it ( no powder) hand it back and watch the muzzle. It will usually move the direction of the dominant eye.
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Right handed shooters flinch to the right and low. Left handed shooters flinch to the left and low. As far as I can "see", this has nothing to do with looking at the
frizzen, but in flinching, as in "shirking the shot" or "shrinking from the blow", both 19th century verbiage.
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I agree that dryfiring is probably the best exercise you can do other than actual live fire. When dryfiring I always try to hold on target for 3-5 seconds after trigger pull. Another exercise is to do isometrics by shouldering your rifle and putting the barrel under a shelf or clothes rack and pushing up and holding. Be careful of your sights.
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One thing that will help is a rifle made for offhand. I built my offhand flintlock with drop and cast-off to fit me. When I bring it to my shoulder I don’t have to bend my head or twist at all. My cheek is right on the cheekrest. I am considerably more advanced in age than you but I shot offhand until 2 shoulder surgeries stopped it. All the advice given here is good. Practice every chance you get and remember what 1/16” movement of the barrel does at 50 yds.
Lynn
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Dry firing and filming your shooting sequence live as mentioned above are excellent ways to improve your consistency. A couple of additional thoughts. Set yourself up facing your target with your rifle held down at waist level - then close your eyes and mount your rifle in your shooting position on your shoulder with cheek on the stock keeping your eyes closed - then open your eyes and check your sight alignment on the target. You may benefit from adjusting your body position in relation to the target. If you are compensating by twisting your upper body at the waist, you may be adding extra stress to your sight alignment efforts. The other item you might consider is breathing control. Breathe in and out a couple of times and mount your rifle as you breathe in the third time. You have about 15 +/- seconds of optimum oxygen to give you the most stable hold. Holding much longer will often result in more movement as your body continues to work to maintain position with the weight of the rifle. If you are shooting competitively, rather than trying to hold for an extended time while chasing the 10 ring taking the rifle down and remounting may produce better results. Maybe also skip the caffeine the day of your shoot. Mostly just have fun.
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Flint longrifles are meant to be shot off hand....My hunting rifle has never been shot on a bag or a bench. For initial sight in I lean against a tree at about 12 yards and zero in there....To stay in practice with my form I will get real close to the target, maybe 8 paces. I will shoot off-hand until the balls are touching and then work my way back until my groups are tight for the chosen distance.....For me this has really helped as I am a ground hunter/stalker and do not have the luxury of a rest to lean my gun on while hunting in the thicketts.....
I built cast off into my gun and that also helps as does having a proper trigger pull. Many guns are to long for the shooters. A lot of good advice above. I like having a silver front sight as others do. Shoulder your rifle often. It should raise to eye as though it was not there. Outside of the sights, my longrifle is shot and hunted just like my longbows which makes them very effective on game.