AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: flatsguide on October 11, 2023, 02:58:03 AM
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How many of you guys trim the sprue remains on the RB after casting. Any accuracy difference between trimmed and in~trimmed ?
Thanks Richard
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I trim them as close as a sharp side cutting plyers gets. There is still a "nub" on it which I try to have up when loading. It usually doesn't stay perfectly centered up though.
I think they are just as accurate as factory swedged round balls, at least for me.
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I wonder if having consistent ball weight isn't more important to accuracy than the sprue nub. :-\
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Don’t know Smylee, I’ll weigh a trimmed and untrammeled. Don’t think there is much difference. I generally use a toenail clipper to trim em
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I have not tried it with a smaller balls but .662 pure lead balls can have the sprue erased by putting 30-50 in a vibrating case tumbler with no media. Noisy as heck but it will beat the sprues down making them look like the store bought swaged balls. But it will not work with harder alloys like wheel weights.
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Richard,
If you have a quality mold, shoot them as cast. If the sprue is excessive, trim that thing!
Curtis
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I wonder if having consistent ball weight isn't more important to accuracy than the sprue nub. :-\
Consistent EVERY thing IS very important.Powder charge,seating pressure for sure.I have glass vials that I used for weighed powder
charges for a long range 451 I made about 20 years ago and I would use them again if I ever make or buy another rifle.
Bob Roller
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Lee molds leave no sprue. Lyman molds leave a consistent sprue. It’s with bag molds that I have to fiddle with trimming.
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I use a wire cutter\stripper to trim those long sprues. Lightly grip the sprue .with the # 10 or 12 hole and twist the ball.
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I use a small side cutter that I ground one side down so that they are almost flat. Just leaves a little peaked point after nipping off the sprue from bag-mold cast balls.
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I use Lee molds the ones I have only leave a flat spot on the ball. I just shoot as is.
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Since this seems to be the place to expound on round ball theory here goes. I think the only time having a perfectly round ball that’s been cast from pure lead, in a superior mold, weighted, sprues trimmed to the max, and rolled between two pieces of glass, is when your shooting a rifle at long range. I think at shorter ranges before the velocity starts really bleeding of it makes little difference.
Now where a lot of shooters get it wrong is applying the same theory to a smooth bore. With a smoothie the lead doesn’t have to be pure, the mold can be an old Dixie hair straightener mold, weighing them is ridiculous. you can cut the sprue with a pair of side cutters, and your good to go. The one thing they both have in common is the velocity controls the drift. Rifles have rifling to spin the ball, and as long as the ball has enough spin to keep it steady its accurate , as the velocity, and the spin are are working you get accuracy. But eventually they all drift.
Smoothbores depend on velocity also to create a cone of energy around the ball that as long as the cone of energy lasts makes the ball fly straight. Smoothies are usually bigger bore, and lighter, and thinner barrels, which means you can’t load them tightly like a rifle. So you load an under sized ball, no patch, or wad, or nitro card, just a over shot card, or a wad made of old wool blanket, or a wad of paper wasp nest. At out to about 100 yards they can shoot very well. Small bore smoothies seem to do a little better and I’m not sure why. But I did see a range committee go over a 28 gauge trade gun for a couple of days before they awarded their prize for best trail walk score.
Hungry Horse
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The only sprues I trim are on balls cast in my Tanner moulds. I use wire strippers, twisting the balls in my fingers as I crimp them
onto the VERY large sprue. What I end up with, is a tiny little point of lead, maybe 1/64" in diameter & maybe 1/16" high. I just tap that down with the
jaws of the wire stripper = perfectly round ball.
(https://i.ibb.co/w4LDWd2/wire-strippers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkB2PcM)
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I cut mine as close as possible and then tumble the balls like recommended in the ordnance manuals of the era (or close).
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The only sprues I trim are on balls cast in my Tanner moulds. I use wire strippers, twisting the balls in my fingers as I crimp them
onto the VERY large sprue. What I end up with, is a tiny little point of lead, maybe 1/64" in diameter & maybe 1/16" high. I just tap that down with the
jaws of the wire stripper = perfectly round ball.
(https://i.ibb.co/w4LDWd2/wire-strippers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkB2PcM)
Good idea. Never thought of wire stripper for sprue removal.
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I cut in 1/2 way, they turn the ball in my fingers. Off comes virtually all of the sprue.
The white handled strippers work best as the jaws are even, not offset due to the hinge.
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I found that this flush cutter works for me. These may have come from Harbor Freight - cannot remember. They work a treat.
J.B.
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Daryl, thanks, good idea of the wire stripper, I’ll give it a try.
Cheers Richard
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I trim when needs be, then put a few balls at a time in a homemade trough with arborite (formica) base, and roll them with another piece pressed down on top of them. Roll in big and small circles for a few seconds, and no sign of the sprue remains.
Saves messing with sprue down or wherever.
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I'll try again on a picture of the flush cutter I mentioned above. Oops!
J.B.
(https://i.ibb.co/9c4HKy8/IMG-1884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbKjV40)
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That's why I switched to Lee molds for all of my round ball casting. It's been so long since I cast with the only Lyman RB mold I have I can't recall how I trimmed the sprue. Think maybe an old side cutter I found at a flea market that cut really close.
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I use a number of Lyman moulds & have never been concerned over the sprue. I just put it sprue up and load.
The only sprues I trim or bother with, come from Tanner moulds without sprue cutters, thus they need 'work'.
I also have Lee moulds, which leave a flat spot on the ball, which I also place 'sprue' up. I prefer Lyman mould
designs over Lee. Loading that flat spot to the side, will reduce the size of the ball by up to 4 or 5 thou. To me,
that is unacceptable. I like to win events I enter.
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I use a pair of Tanner side cutters. One side is ground flat. Works very well. Jerry
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Still end up with a flat if using side cutters. I prefer to end up with a perfectly round ball that can be introduced any which-i-way.
This works especially well when making up paper ctgs. for hunting.
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I ground one side flat and sharp[side cutters], making them a flush cutter.
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I roll mine between 2 pieces of granite counter top,probably makes no difference but I do it on my 54 caliber balls
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Not trying to be a smartas* but I simply wait until the Hornady balls go on sale and I buy 500-1000 of any I need then the problem is solved for several years.
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Trouble with that, around here, they never go on sale and the most any store will have, is 1 or 2 boxes of them.
I recently bought 1 box of Hornady .495's. There was also one box of .490", one of .570's and one of .440's. For
serious shooting past 25 yards, I use cast balls, mostly from Lyman moulds. My .682" RB mould is made in Italy
by Pedersoli, I think, and is exactly the same as any large black Lyman mould.(not that anyone makes swaged balls
that large. I still have a .677" Tanner mould, casting .675" x .675" in my (almost) pure alloy, that I used the wire strippers
on, along with a .740", .724" and .595" tanner blocks casting round balls.
I spray the Tanner blocks (& all of my others) with Lyman Super Moly bullet coating. This prevents "tinning" and helps release
the balls.
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Yep, can't shoot Hornady,s if they don't make the right size. 605-610-648 just to name a few.
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Another good sprue cutter is the heavy duty toe nail cutters that look like diagonal pliers. They do a good job when I’m useing my tanner molds. If the balls were tumbled after cutting I’m sure it would be difficult to find the evidence of a sprue without mics or calipers. BJH
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What I like about the wire strippers, is no tumbling or rolling necessary.
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Another good sprue cutter is the heavy duty toe nail cutters that look like diagonal pliers. They do a good job when I’m useing my tanner molds. If the balls were tumbled after cutting I’m sure it would be difficult to find the evidence of a sprue without mics or calipers. BJH
I use the clippers that are made for trimming my dogs claws. Works great with Tanner molds or bag molds.
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I’m sure there is a good joke or laugh here but who tumbles their balls?
CheersRichard
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I just noticed that Hobby lobby sells flush cutters also. In their jewelry making section. I bought a set for my next batch to try out. BJH
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I wish Lee made a .662 mould. They make a .595 ball mould thats great. I had to get a Lyman .662 and the sprue is really bigger than I think should be. Trimming them would be a job that I won’t do. Se la vive, Se la guerre.
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I have never trimmed the sprue.
(https://i.ibb.co/mC4TYz1/IMG-0864.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DDQW6Ks)
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I agree with Jerry, weighing, rolling, and worrying about the sprue are what muzzleloader people do instead of having a worry stone. IMO, it’s all a gigantic waste of time that could be spent at the range doing something that really would make a difference, like practice. I’ve tried it all and the only one that made a big difference was practice.
Hungry Horse
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Very well put, Hungry Horse.
Rich.
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Hungry horse.. are you saying that trimming the sprue has no affect on accuracy? Range time is worthless without an accurate rifle. Let me put it another way, as one of my heroes stated, “only accurate rifles are interesting”. Range time is invaluable to the shooter but it does not make the rifle more accurate. So back to the original question, is there any difference in accuracy between a trimmed and un-trimmed sprue? I should have made it clear and my apologies for that.
Jerry, what was the distance to your target?
Thanks Richard
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At Friendship, some of the top benchrest shooters use precast balls purchased from vendors, shoot them and win matches. Sometimes "it isn't what we know that causes us problems, but what we know that isn't so" I agree that practice is the most important part of shooting. Practice will often make that Ho Hum rifle into a one hole gun. I know fellow shooters of suppository bullets that weigh to 1/10 of a grain. I used to do that till I had 2 bullets that were 45 grains different in weight. While shooting at 500 meters I shot both to see what he difference in impact would be. When I checked the groups the impact point was the same. I have never weighed another bullet since. That was over 10 years ago, my scores are the same as when weighing bullets. Sometimes the matter between our ears interfers with good shooting.
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Gosh it almost sounds as though some people are upset because other people do things to their balls that they don't do to theirs even when it really won't affect their own balls. ;) Just a little word salad for your digestion and maybe regurgitation . :D
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Hungry horse.. are you saying that trimming the sprue has no affect on accuracy? Range time is worthless without an accurate rifle. Let me put it another way, as one of my heroes stated, “only accurate rifles are interesting”. Range time is invaluable to the shooter but it does not make the rifle more accurate. So back to the original question, is there any difference in accuracy between a trimmed and un-trimmed sprue? I should have made it clear and my apologies for that.
Jerry, what was the distance to your target?
Thanks Richard
Richard, here is a practice group I shot at 60 yards with my chunk gun. There are 10 shots in that hole. The balls were hand cast by me and had a good sized sprue, which I placed up.
(https://i.ibb.co/VL1mHXc/F4725-DB5-7652-4-BC2-BEAC-796393876-E37.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fXgv8mz)
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Very nice group okawbow. What barrel, load etc?
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Very nice group okawbow. What barrel, load etc?
Ed Rayl, .48 caliber, 1 1/4”x 54” long. 110 grains 2f Swiss, teflon patch.
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When TARGET shooting specifically, I spend a second or two more, in orienting the sprue exactly up in the middle of the bore. That's about it, with Lyman, RCBS, Ohaus or Lee moulds.
With the tanner moulds, the VERY large sprue is cut almost though, then the ball twisted by the fingers. The result is a round ball, everywhere & can be loaded, anywhichiway.
I would suggest unless one takes the time to put on a good crown and use a tight combination, that no amount of weighing, sorting or trimming of sprues will make any difference in the accuracy
past about 25 to 30yards.
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Nice shooting and a pretty tight shooting rifle Okawbow. Thanks for all the responses. Looks like cast ‘em and shoot ’em. I’m with you on range time...if you can dope the wind your head and shoulders above the guy who can’t.
Thanks guys!
CheersRichard
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Although I do a lot of hand loading metallic cartridge smokeless the variables are many , my first muzzle loading shooting was in 1973 . I find my focus is powder charge ,patch thickness . I start ball with sprue up does this result in the sprue staying in this position - loading - existing the bore ? I also have some Hornady balls with no sprue - flat spot deviation of any sort I really do not believe these balls are more accurate.
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Sprue up is the only way of knowing where it is. If the patch is reasonably snug, then the sprue will come out the muzzle in the same position it was in when loaded.
If it is cocked off to one side, that will through out the balance and at some point, the ball should/will become less accurate, taking on a rotation around it's point of aim.
If the patch is so loose as to be pushed into the bore with just a thumb, then I would not be surprised the sprue will come out pointed in some other direction to which it
was introduced.
The ends of my ram-rods, loading sticks, loading rods, short starters, starting pegs, whatever you want to call them, are cupped so as to not damage the ball.
The various militaries of the world, had flat or even convex shaped ends on their steel ram-rods. In most countries, part of the 'loading drill' was to "throw" the rod 3 times
onto the loaded ctg. to ensure the ball was on the powder.
I still see some people doing this at rendezvous, not only 3 times, but until the rod almost bounces out of the bore.
I tend to not shoot near these people.
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Thanks Daryl, about throwing and bouncing a rod. In the seventies I had a beautiful Samuel Nock SxS 14 gage Circa 1850 that was exclusively my go to bird gun, unfortunately it was stolen. After the powder and a thick tight fitting veggie over powder wad, the rod was thrown down the barrel three or four times with considerable force, I called it “whanging”. You could hear a very considerable change in sound as the powder compressed. The gun shot very clean this way. I learned that from my father in the fifties and have no idea where he learned it. I never used this method on a bullet gun.
Cheers Richard
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The "throwing" of the rod on the "charge" was a military drill as noted.
Why some people do this with their rifles, I do not know. Perhaps they think it is necessary.
When the ball is down with the rod, I place the hole in my starter's handle onto the end of the
rod and give it one smack with my palm, compressing the powder "almost" exactly the same each time. It is a repeatable drill.
In chronograph testing I found this method reduced extreme spread on my shots, down below 10fps over 10 recorded shots.
This, I found back in the late 70's using my Oehler Model 12 chronograph.
It also gave an average of 75 to 100fps higher velocity for the 'accuracy' charge of powder in both my .40 and .45 rifles.
The reason for this little 'bump' on the rod is as stated, to reduce spread and give consistent pressure shot to shot that is repeatable.
Note that when "good" BP ctg. shooters load ammo, they ALL compress the powder charge in the case exactly the same in each ctg.
Consistency is why, along with improved ballistics.
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My Lyman molds leave a pretty small sprue, not like the old Dixie molds. I use soft lead and the short starter seems to flatten it out. If the sprue is dead up it should fly true. Voids probably have the most harmful effect.
Lynn
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I use all Lee molds and as said they drop a pretty clean ball. If I do have a somewhat prominent sprue I load it sprue down. I’ve always done it that way, but most likely it makes little or no difference at 25-50 yards.
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At a trade gun shoot in Oregon I shot balls made in an old Dixie (hair straightener) mold, and cut off with side cutters, and then let them roll around in a big old baking soda can in the back of my truck all the way from central California to Cooz Bay. I outshot guys I had been playing second fiddle to for years with those balls.
Chunk guns specifically built for those matches are often a lot more precision than the garden variety muzzleloader and might benefit from a coddled round ball, and then again maybe not.
Hungry Horse
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I use Lee molds of late I have ignored the sprue placement seams to make no difference even way out there. As an experiment tried running some in my case cleaner took vary little time for that small flat spot to disappear. Tried some pretty bad ones with wrinkles same results looked just like Hornady makes you wonder how they make there, I have herd rumors.
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Lee molds leave no sprue. Lyman molds leave a consistent sprue. It’s with bag molds that I have to fiddle with trimming.
But they leave a flat spot so it needs to be loaded “up”. I use Lyman and RCBS moulds and load sprue up. I may try a batch of 50-54 RBs in the tumbler one of these days.
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Someone mentioned weight variations. I machined down through some cast bullets on the mill one day. Machined a board flat then epoxied a selection of bullets that looked good but weighed out from “nominal” some a little heavy to several grains light. Machined down .010” at a time. As a result I don’t shoot projectiles that are more than 1 grain from nominal except for pistol bullets if I cast them. But this requires “knowing” the mould (how it likes to be filled and the temp) and being very consistent in using it. If I am casting “serious” bullets I never stop until the pot is empty or I have enough for the project. When I add metal to the pot I make them a separate lot for weight purposes. I guess I should do this with some RBs. But I just weigh them within 1 grain (the “heavies” are all good) but if more than one grain under they get remelted. You would be astounded the voids that can be in ball/bullet that is 1 grain or 1.5 gr under. And with a bullet twist, 16-20”, they will cause fliers. Very slow twist and short ranges. Maybe not so much. But testing this is a project I don’t need.
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I find that most of my light ones come from the first dozen or so cast. I always throw them back because that is a pretty good sign of a void. An old friend told me many years ago to eliminate all the variables you can and live with the rest.
Lynn
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I find that most of my light ones come from the first dozen or so cast. I always throw them back because that is a pretty good sign of a void. An old friend told me many years ago to eliminate all the variables you can and live with the rest.
Lynn
The cold mould etc will cause issues and I never keep the first 10 or so depending on the mould. But if you drive 1000 miles one way to a rifle match shooting maybe 250 300 rounds risking a flier or 3 or 10 is just silly. Anyone that does the checking I did by milling down through bullets will find things they did not expect even in the “good” weight bullets. Also the “heavies” are the only ones that are “perfect” absolutely solid, but they are a smaller percentage than the ones under weight. Exterior flaws will sometimes weigh “OK” or very close to it. Too long to explain here.