AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Dave B on June 08, 2008, 05:29:37 PM
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I have been wondering how many rifles must one build to be recognized as desirable to have in a collection. In some respects we have people who are full time making a go of doing this that have built over two hundred pieces. I don't think Wallace Gussler has built that many but his work commands a premium price. Is it he has notoriety as one of the founding fathers of traditional rifle building in our modern age? Maybe a combination of the two. I know that quality work is one thing that sets them aside. I think of those in my area that are in that class. In Washington one of the best builders is Dave Rase. For those of you who have had him set a barrel in to wood know that the man is exacting in his work. His engraving is high quality as well as his carving. Being that he is not working at this full time he makes one or two guns a year. Lucky is the person that is able to score one of his pieces. Jerry Huddleston is another in our area that builds some amazing pieces. He has built a lot of his own equipment to do all his work. He showed me a furnace that he built to pour his gun mounts using the lost wax method. If he needs some thing he has the talent to make it happen. Ron Scott down in Southern Oregon is another that has been building for a long time that has become known for quality work with his knock dead gorgeous Jaeger rifles. Dave's work is every bit the quality of these two yet not the recognition. The only thing that I think has prevented him from national fame as a builder is press. Ron and Jerry have been written up numerous times. We all know him as great inletter of barrels but man can he build a beautiful rifle. Another one that comes to mind that is a great builder is Freddy Harrison out of Tenn. He sells gun wood and is just as down home as you can find. He had several of his rifles out with him when we were still having the Enumclaw show out here. I was entranced with the quality of his work. He had a rifle done in the style of John Noll that looked like the real deal. I stand in awe of these guys work.
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I don't know what makes that tick, Dave. I wonder about it alot, as I'd like to get a nice chunk of change for my rifles, but who is Tom Curran, anyway?
I think in large part, the famous name builders get themselves published and photographed, go to high visibility events, in other words, build an image that gets put before the public eye. This takes a long time to develop, and much time and money invested. I think some luck plays a big part, too.
About luck: A lucky person is one who prepares himself to be ready when opportunity knocks.
Tom
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This is a good topic for conversation. I wish it was going on the other board to get lots of different perspectives.
Acer is right on the money. To get a big name you have to work at getting a big name not just doing good work. There are lots of unknow builders that do outstanding work, never get on the internet and never go to shows. (have their own booth). The guys that want to build a name are going to the shows, giving classes, and trying to get pictures published with the NMLA or CLA.
Cheers,
Ken
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Let's move it over.
Dave, you start, and then I'll move mine. Ken, you into moving it?
Tom
Move by starting a new thread on the old ALR, copy and pasting you posts from here to there. It helps to have both boards open at the same time on your browser.
Duh. I bet you all know that already.
Again, Tom
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Let's move it over.
Dave, you start, and then I'll move mine. Ken, you into moving it?
Tom
Move by starting a new thread on the old ALR, copy and pasting you posts from here to there. It helps to have both boards open at the same time on your browser.
Duh. I bet you all know that already.
Again, Tom
If you really have a big screen and have both open with the same posts and look at both carefully they wil be in 3D!
Sorry to good to pass up!
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Yes, I'm up for moving it over.
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I have move it over to the other forum. See you there. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I move to move. Which I just did already. I didn't have enough coffee to see it in 3D, but one more cup and everything will seem more vibrant.
Tom
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Dave, I put a reference to this post in the Building section, with a link, to make it easy to find the topic. I believe it belongs where you post it, but not many folks will see it. So this will help, methinks. Also get that section a little more action.
T
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Hey I just noticed Acer your old post score is growing exponentially there. whats up with that. It was only at 9K a couple of weeks ago and now its at 15K :o..... well I guess it really isnt exponential :-[but thats still alot of posts. You arent cheating are you :-\
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I don't care if they ever collect my guns, but before I croak I would love to build one that would sell for $10K......Hey, I still got a few years!!
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i would love to think that one of my guns would be in a private collection or in a museum someday.or at least handed down through the ages.
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I don't know that any of the guns I have built are in collections, but I do know that some of my powder horns and rum horns are in personal collections and will never be used for their intended purpose.
Randy Hedden
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None of you guys have this right. The difference is the difference between craftsmanship and art. It may have nothing to do with publicity. The customer that makes the bucks is the one that can rcognize art before anybody else does. It has nothing to do with effort, at least not necessarily.Example: Hershall House rifles are quickly made. They work just fine. For decades people have been copying his "look". A craftsman may spend twice the time and a House rifle is going to be worth more. Example: Steve Alexander. Never heard of him? Makes English sporting rifles. The late Lynton Makenzie, who used to do his engraving and worked for the gunhouses in London, took him across the pond to get an opinion. The opinion from Purdey"s and Holland & Holland was that the work was the best that ever was- including Manton. He"s busy with a few wealthy customers charging whatever he wants to.Craftsmanship and effort and art but to an incredible level. Dead opposite of Hershall House.Monte Mandarino. All by himself. Six figures. HIGH 6 figures. Booked for life. I doubt 5% of the board has even heard of him.I personally think Allen Martin is dirt cheap right now.And I have no idea what he charges.
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One more thing to consider... Not everyone can appreciate top of the line work and differentiate it between lesser work. There's a reason why some are more widely appreciated than others. With that being said; however, even someone who does top notch work must have a certain amount of exposure to get wide spread recognition.
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Bill, we can duke this out at Dixon's.....
If you do the best work in the world, it will not sell unless you show it to the right people. Just because the work is top notch, doesn't make it an automatic success. The other half of the equasion to success is SALESMANSHIP, you are selling YOU, promoting YOU.
For an artist to be COLLECTIBLE he must produce a certain QUANITY of work.
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Bill,
I think that Steve Alexander is kind of an anomaly in the world of contemporary muzzle loading gun smithing. I remember a few years ago when he was selling his fine English sporting rifles for $25,000 each and building about four per year with a lot of orders.
There is no doubt that Steve does build the finest English sporting rifles I have ever seen.
Btw, the last I knew Steve lived in a little burg not very far from where I live.
Randy Hedden
www.harddogrifles.com
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Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.
I'll give you an example. Don Getz was around at the KRA show showing everyone Allen Martin's latest rifle. If everyone didn't already know who he was, if he was unknown, that would have been enough ,I think, to keep him busy for quite some time. And things would go from there.
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How can you beat that combination: Martin the Builder, with Getz as Sales Rep?
Dixon's is only three weeks away.
tom
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I don't mean to interrupt the flow of this thread but Bill that's the greatest compliment anybody has ever given me. I tried to be a salesman once but I got a serious rash from the polyester suit.
We now return to your thread in progress
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Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.
Dangit, I don't get no respect....I thought I was the worst salesman! I don't display at shows or go to big shoots anymore, and I haven't been to Dixons since '88 and '90, never been in MuzzleBlasts, so nobody outside mid-Michigan knows me, except you guys on this forum. But I have a steady backlog of work anyway. My guns seem to sell themselves and I get orders by word of mouth through past customers. Almost all my customers have come back for a second rifle or smoothbore, a couple have come back three or four times! I have turned down a lot of projects, because it is not what I like building or I don't like to get backed up much more than a year. That's only about 3 or 4 projects a year, and I know guys with 10 or 12 backed up. I won't keep someone out there waiting that long! My point here is not to promote or brag about myself, I am content in my anonimity and I keep busy enough as is. I hope that didn't sound like a sales pitch, I just think there must be a lot of guys in the same boat who don't seek a lot of noteriety, but make absolutely stunning rifles at there own pace and for there own contentment.
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Ian, I guess Bill didn't think you could read, either. :D
Are you going to Dixon's this year? I'm going Thu Fri Sat Sun. My buddy Roger Vincent is coming down Fri. He loves guns. It's but three weeks now, isn't it? I have to start making a pile of stuff to bring.
T
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Jim, I agree that obviously people have to see your work, but it isn't like you have to be constantly in the spotlight, or constantly promote yourself, or be a great salesman. Ian is probably pretty busy and I suspect is the worst salesman in the world.
I'll give you an example. Don Getz was around at the KRA show showing everyone Allen Martin's latest rifle. If everyone didn't already know who he was, if he was unknown, that would have been enough ,I think, to keep him busy for quite some time. And things would go from there.
Think you are right Bill. It's at least a good feeling to believe that somebodys work is what really counts. Kind of how it ought to be.
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Ok Guys... I get a few photos in MB & Ml in th 90's Next thing you know I'm building guns for folks.... yeah! I'm loving it. But That is not were my heart is. I have at least three guns in the shop with my name ( idea.. on them since 95!) I'm building some kits & custom jobs, that I'm really not into! Am I doing good work ...$#*! I have to that is what is expected of me.... Am I enjoying my work? Well it depends... If I'm learning about historical firearms ( recent Jaeger build) it is exciting ( mostly) If I'm called upon to create something that another builder does sooooo much better......it is a sentence!
Lads, Be lucky you can express yourself! because if you find the niche You may be doin things you don't want ta! but the money has been passed and ya hav ta!
I'm not a long time builder ( only been at it since 83!) I've done my share of good guns & done my share of kits & "you really want that's!". ......( To pay my bills)
Just would like to get back to the enjoyment of the "challenge" of building a special gun for no one" but me!
My 2 cents!
Jim
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I don't know what makes that tick, Dave. I wonder about it alot, as I'd like to get a nice chunk of change for my rifles, but who is Tom Curran, anyway?
I think in large part, the famous name builders get themselves published and photographed, go to high visibility events, in other words, build an image that gets put before the public eye. This takes a long time to develop, and much time and money invested. I think some luck plays a big part, too.
About luck: A lucky person is one who prepares himself to be ready when opportunity knocks.
Tom
I know a man, Don King, who was doing very nice work in the 1960s. By the 80s he realized people were ordering guns from him then selling them for a profit since he worked too cheap. His guns float through TOW and I saw a couple of his guns at the CLR show back when I made it one year. But he is pretty much unknown. Hs not built a rifle in about 10 years and probably only one in the last 20+-. He is now 75. His guns still do not bring what they should. But they are collectable.
I traded this rifle out of the original owner, but needed to pay a doctor bill... Should have made payments to the doc. Still kick myself. It shot great and I killed several deer with it. Lock had engraving on the internals as well.
It was made late 70s IIRC.
I still have one of his rifles but its not in the same class as this one.
Dan
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FDonKing2.jpg&hash=8e1fa0a2212bf35c52ae18df977c68435a017a68)
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By the 80s he realized people were ordering guns from him then selling them for a profit since he worked too cheap.
That's exactly why I don't do engraveing for people. I'm not comfortable charging much and i would be extremely ticked if I found out someone was just selling and profiting from my work.
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EvilMonkey...Cody T, is that you? Your not a new member! Git yer post count updated!
When I see someone who just sold one of my guns, (not often, but for profit...of course 8)) I always ask for a cut of his profits. Think I ever got any? I won't build for him again >:(
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I think if you undercharge, someone will see the extra value they got for a pittance, and the easy money starts to eat away at their resolve to keep the gun. Greed takes over. Or necessity.
If you are worried about someone taking advantage over your work at a later date, then charge more. I don't know how that would work, but it seems reasonable to me. Maybe you would lose the sale, or people just wouldn't buy? I think it's all wrapped up in your marketing, your belief in your own work, in the visibility of your work and your person. Too much to know what the answer is in my experience.
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EvilMonkey...Cody T, is that you? Your not a new member! Git yer post count updated!
Actually, I don't want my post count updated. I felt like a geezer with all those posts attributed to me. Being a 'new member' with only a few posts makes me feel young again ;D. Besides, somewhere along the way my post count got artificially inflated by about 2000 posts so now I can sorta track some realistic numbers. In the unlikely event that I want to sell something, I may have to bribe a mod to boost my count to 25 ;D.
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I don't know if I'm qualified to post in here,but,If I were a builder(and I'm not),I would build the kinds of rifles and smoothbores that I like. Take no orders. Just build the kind that appeal to me.If I got famous,so be it.If I remained in anonymity,so be it also.
Building a style of gun that didn't appeal to me,for example, I'd most likely not have my "heart" in it and I would not be satisfied with my work. But on the contrary,if the project appealed to me,well it just makes most sense to me.Thanks for the opportunity to chat with the Artisans.
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This idea was also discussed on the old site. Barbie made a comment about promotion and how some of the better promoters do not necessarily do the best work. Her dad claims that the article in Fox Fire really helped him (Jim Chambers is obviously not one of those that does not do the best work). We have far more builders now that do fine work as compared to the earlier times when Chambers and House got started. I think in some ways the kits have helped as they permit one to do the finer work before they get tired of looking at the project. Promotion also helps make the work visible and gets it out to the correct people. I will restate a thing I heard from a knowleadgeable bow dealer. Black Widow bows cost the buyer an extra $200 in advertising costs as well as labor and mateials. They are good recurves with a lot of satisfied users, but I question if they are the Mercedes Benz of bows as they claim. They sell a lot of bows and have a name as top of the line. Promotion does require that the promoter at least has a certain level of quality to back their claims.
DP
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DPHARISS, Dan, Don King rifles I think are extremely undervalued. He was on the top of the pile in the 80's. His work is in Contemporary makers by Robt. Weil. So he had "exposure". Constantly featured in the Buckskin Report as an authority. (The best ML mag that ever was).
Everyone has a Niche. His was the "buckskinner"who was willing to pay a grand or more for a top notch rifle. It stuck. It could have been more but it wasn"t. If you see a rifle like the one pictured for $4000 you've got a REALLY good rifle for the price.
Everyone has a niche. I look at myself. All you have to do is look at my website. I can't give a rifle away for $ 3000. Or $4000. At $6-7000 I'm busy forever. Example: I've got all the parts to make a S. Mtn. rifle with hand forged hardware with a long fancy tang and very cool side opening patchbox with silver inlay and engraving, and a Bill Large barrel, tapered, .93 to .85. .43 cal. If I priced it at $2800, it would sit for a year. Go figure.( I may do it anyway, just for fun.)
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You will know when you have reached that point when they come up to your table and say, "where's that gun everyone
is talking about?". Even when you reach that point, you must go out there and show your face to the public. We have
been urging Allen Martin, Mark Wheland, and others to go along to Friendship (when we now go), or other places, even
tho they may have enough orders to keep them busy. You must get out there and be recognized. That is one of the things that make Dixon's and the CLA show so great. .....Don
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You will know when you have reached that point when they come up to your table and say, "where's that gun everyone
is talking about?". Even when you reach that point, you must go out there and show your face to the public. We have
been urging Allen Martin, Mark Wheland, and others to go along to Friendship (when we now go), or other places, even
tho they may have enough orders to keep them busy. You must get out there and be recognized. That is one of the things that make Dixon's and the CLA show so great. .....Don
But this is assuming that you will go someplace and have a table.
As you point this is a failing. Basically hiding ones light under a bushel sort of thing. But sites like this can change that, assuming the person is computer literate.
Dan
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there are so many fantastic builders today and so many that want to be great builders that there is not a lot of room for getting to be well known or famous.you really have to work hard and never stop promoting yourself.
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Just an observation guys. It's like any other art form. There are literally thousands of great artists who's work will never be seen and thousands of great musicians who's music will never be heard.
I envy all of you guys. I don't have the talent to cut a board straight.
Centershot