AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on December 17, 2023, 02:39:30 AM
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My current build is based on CB-6 and CB-7 in Grinslade’s book on Flintlock Fowlers. Like a number of these used for militia use it appears that 4” or a bit more of the forestock was cut off and a long, round brass nosecap added, held in place by the underlug near the muzzle. See the picture below.
Questions:
1) is any wood remaining beneath this nosecap?
2) is the top edge of the brass nosecap a single thickness of rolled over?
3 how is it kept from sliding forward? Looks like it’s not pinned THROUGH the nosecap but BENEATH the nosecap
4) is it generally accepted that these are secondary work associated with adaptation for militia use?
(https://i.ibb.co/t4mDtKz/IMG-1540.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdypfjC)
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By the looks of the muzzle sticking out of the end cap, there is no wood, there, but at the base, where it is tapered, I suspect the wood bleeds off (diminishes to zero) by the time it
gets past the 1st 2 grooves.
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These seem to be purpose built this way. There was one that was a basket case came through RIACO 10 or 15 years ago that I studied closely. No wood under the brass except where it meets the stock. Just one pin through an under lug is all that holds it on. I'm going to try one this winter.
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(https://i.ibb.co/VYWRxxC/Afbeelding-22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3my2vvF)
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Thanks guys!
Adrie Luke, how do you think the nosecap is fastened on the one pictured? I’m still trying to understand why they do not slip forward unless there’s a rivet at the rear where there is still some wood to rivet to. Or a rivet or screw up to the barrel. Anyone else see how it’s prevented from slipping forward?
Most seem to have an underlug sticking through but I cannot see a pin. Confusing.
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Hi Rich,
It almost looks like there is a barrel lug that goes through the brass cap and then some sort of tennon pin (perhaps tapered) goes through the lug anchoring the cap. That lug inserted all the way through the cap would prevent it from sliding forward.
dave
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What Mike said
(https://i.ibb.co/8mbGV1Z/Afbeelding-22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4F2Cxhr)
Click to make larger
Adrie
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Rich here a visible barrelkey
(https://i.ibb.co/G59Lpr7/Unknown-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kSJfBPK)
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Thanks Adrie. My brain is like soup sometimes. Now I realize that the nosecap has a slot for the barrel tenon and that keeps it from moving fore and aft. Should have been obvious.
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Is it possible that this muzzle cap is simply a shim to take up the slack of a bayonet that has too large a tube? The barrel tennon may be the lug that secures the bayonet.
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Is it possible that this muzzle cap is simply a shim to take up the slack of a bayonet that has too large a tube? The barrel tennon may be the lug that secures the bayonet.
Could be, but it’s a common style on club butt fowlers.
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Wouldn't the front sight located forward of the lug interfere with a bayonet?
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Wouldn't the club butt muskets predate the socket bayonet?
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Wouldn't the club butt muskets predate the socket bayonet?
Per Grinslade’s book on Colonial Fowlers, club-butt fowlers were made through and after the Revolutionary War.
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Here's some reading
https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2004-B89-Eighteenth-Century-American-Fowlers-The-.pdf
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It looks like the brass is much thicker than a normal brass nose cap. Maybe about a 1/16 or 3/32. In the image that Adrienne sent it might have been thick than above. Note the foreword end were it appears to have a lip that that was filed? in.
Cheers Richard
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It looks like the brass is much thicker than a normal brass nose cap. Maybe about a 1/16 or 3/32. In the image that Adrienne sent it might have been thick than above. Note the foreword end were it appears to have a lip that that was filed? in.
Cheers Richard
Thanks. I looked at that one but I can’t make sense of that picture with the nosecap with the lip. It’s not held in place by the lug as most are. I don’t think it’s typical.
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looks like that lug may have gone through the cap to act as a bayonet lug also.??
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I know next to nothing about bayonet lugs but thought they were substantial and brazed on. I’m not going to bayonet any turkeys! I hope!
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looks like that lug may have gone through the cap to act as a bayonet lug also.??
Hi,
No, it was not for a bayonet. The front sight would interfere.
dave
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seems like a bayonet would clear the one adrie luke is showing , no? i thought colonial bayonets where made to fit the guns they were going at the time. [minus of course besses and charlevilles]
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Hi,
No, the one Adrie Luke shows would have a very short and weak socket. It is not for a bayonet nor does that possibly apply to the original gun Rich highlighted. This is a decorative cap and not to fit a bayonet.
dave
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In many cases during the 1770-1790 era the ends of the forestocks of fowlers were often cut back for a bayonet, but that does not seem to be the case with this group of club butt fowlers. An underlug n a dovetail is not strong enough to hold a bayonet in place. A wide, low, brazed lug is needed. Imagine twisting a tight bayonet over that thin nosecap held in place with a thin dovetailed underlug and thrusting it into a bale of hay with all your strength. That would get mangled in a hurry, I’d think. We don’t see many club-butt fowlers here except for a couple Mike Brooks has made so there’s not been much exposure or discussion of the variations here. Grinslade and others suppose this type of nosecap was the product of just one or a couple shops.
Thanks everyone for the interest and input!
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A question about the function of the nose cap:
The way the nose cap overlaps the end of the forestock suggests the nose cap could negate the need for a forward barrel pin. Do these fowlers tend to have an upper barrel pin in the usual place, or are they omitted?
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I’m guessing the nosecap protected the end grain of the forestock from whatever it is nosecap protect the stock from. Water when cleaning? The cone shape at the rear with the nosecap held firmly in place by the lug should snug the stock up to the barrel. We will find out! I used just 3 pins on this short 39” turkey choke 20 gauge barrel. It’s going to be a diminutive club butt for sure. Maybe 7 pounds.
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If I had to make something like this I would...
If using thin brass sheet have wood running all the way through and tuck the sheet around into the barrel channel, wedge at bottom to hold everything tight to the barrel. The first photo looks like thin sheet.
If using thick brass sheet, might only have wood at the rear end and wedge to hold to the barrel. To me it looks only like a decorative feature but might be wrong.
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Just had this thought, having been a seaman at some stage of my life. They might have lashed some kind of knife or dagger to the end. A seaman would do that kind of thing. ;D thats now if these guns were used by seamen :o
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Good Golly. I had no idea this would be so controversial. Look at the several examples in Grinslades book. This is a " school" of club butt fowling guns. Very area specific. Just quirky is all, nothing more, nothing less.
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Controversial??
I had to go back and read through the thread looking for the controversy. Couldn't find it. Looks like just another discussion and sharing of information, thoughts and ideas to me. Some float and some don't.
Just sayin.
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Mike, I had hope to see some people do that, I guess thats out of the question now.
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It just gets a little old when people who don't know what they're looking at make a WAG when the answer has already been stated. ::)
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Apologies Mike, I went read the whole thing and saw you did clear up the mystery. I get told by my wife all the time that I don't listen, hear or read everything.
Are you going to lash a knife to the one you are going to build? ;)
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I don't think my wife has every said that to me, but she may have. ::)
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Apologies Mike, I went read the whole thing and saw you did clear up the mystery. I get told by my wife all the time that I don't listen, hear or read everything.
Are you going to lash a knife to the one you are going to build? ;)
Sword.
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Adrie, thanks for the link regarding fowlers. Interesting reading.
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Hello Rick, Love that nose cap. I've used that several times on builds including the one in the picture that was posted by Adrie Luke. I'll include pictures of a couple more although they are all similiar and done in the same way. My thoughts are this piece was fabricated after there was no longer a need to use a bayonet and you were now concerned about protecting the end of your fragile stock. First there is no wood under this cap. I made mine in one piece by making a half tube seection and flaring out the end toward the butt end to go over the stock wood that was been beveled down to fit under it. It is held down by going over the lug and a pin to secure it. I've never had any problem with this arrangement. I tapered the pin a little and it doesn't move. I though it was going over the previous lug for the bayonet but am not absolutely sure about that. One question I had with this setup is how there was a front site in that location with a bayonet in place. I'm thinking that was moved or added at some point. In any case I really like the looks of it.
(https://i.ibb.co/zP4NF0g/IMG-1269.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r5wv31h)
(https://i.ibb.co/X7Xdp1b/IMG-1708.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VgVhDRt)
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Thanks, Ken! Making progress on the build. Barrel in and pinned, ramrod hole drilled, thimbles made. Gotta make a few more parts. I’m fiddling with fabricating vs modifying a buttplate. Prototype fabricated from sheet brass looks like it will work. Trigger and plate and side plate to be made also. I’ve been advised to simply solder the silver wings onto the side plate (see CB-6 and 7 in Grinslade’s book for the side plates with raised silver “inlays” on the side plates).
Mine is based on those 2 but petite with a 39”, 20 gauge Colerain turkey choke oct/rd barrel. My Wilson English round face lock is assembled from TRS castings; just have to harden the parts. Going to have to get the forge going to deep case harden the frizzen, as regular hardening does not seem enough on TRS frizzens and I don’t want to face this one.
Question on trigger plate - builder’s choice, among “just a nut”, “boat”, and “keyhole” styles?
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I think I always did "just a nut" on the ones I made. Of course I don't think I ever put a buttplate on one either. I just made them all very "utilitarian". They were all jug choked turkry blasters anyway.
EDIT: I guess I did do one with a buttplate! Appears to have all 1st model bess parts. Why didn't I keep these guns. ::)
(https://i.ibb.co/2t5NcPV/mikescbutt2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqS8htZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/D86QNRY/mikescbutt13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7LZ14F)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jn2b5K9/DSCF2018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrfVzbF)
(https://i.ibb.co/vv43LxS/DSCF2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7wtVXz)
(https://i.ibb.co/xFwDksK/DSCF2023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLn4Ghw)
(https://i.ibb.co/x3Z235R/DSCF2027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DLd1LKS)
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I think I always did "just a nut" on the ones I made. Of course I don't think I ever put a buttplate on one either. I just made them all very "utilitarian". They were all jug choked turkry blasters anyway.
EDIT: I guess I did do one with a buttplate! Appears to have all 1st model bess parts. Why didn't I keep these guns. ::)
(https://i.ibb.co/2t5NcPV/mikescbutt2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqS8htZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/D86QNRY/mikescbutt13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7LZ14F)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jn2b5K9/DSCF2018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrfVzbF)
(https://i.ibb.co/vv43LxS/DSCF2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7wtVXz)
(https://i.ibb.co/xFwDksK/DSCF2023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLn4Ghw)
(https://i.ibb.co/x3Z235R/DSCF2027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DLd1LKS)
That one would be extremely "nifty" in my book!
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Everything Mike makes is Nifty....just saying...
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I want to see Ken Gahagen's club butt he teased us with above!
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I want to see Ken Gahagen's club butt he teased us with above!
Maybe this one.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/10/american-club-butt-fowler-by-ken.html
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I want to see Ken Gahagen's club butt he teased us with above!
Maybe this one.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/10/american-club-butt-fowler-by-ken.html
Ah, very high on the nifty scale. I don't get to see near enough of his stuff.