AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: dave m.1 on December 19, 2009, 07:46:55 PM
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I'm getting close to finishing my first rifle.While at dixon's gun makers fair this year I was talking to bill slusser about the finish he uses on his gun's.He said he use's birchwood casey's true oil which I thought put a nice finish on.I tried a test piece and I'm happy with the result's.He said he put's one or two coat's on to seal under the inlaid part's.My question is would it be allright to assemble the gun after those one or two coat's and apply the rest of the coat's with the gun assembled?Would the true oil do anything the brass,lock,or barrel after it's browned?Also while drilling the hole's for the pin's my dril press which is quite old (I need a new one) made a couple of my hole's a little sloppy would bees wax be the thing to use for that?Like i said this is my first rifle and although i made my fair share of mistake's I'm @!*% proud of it.Iv'e been working on it for over a year.I allready bought another beautiful piece of maple for my next one and can't wait to get started on it.Thank you for any advice.
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When I finish a gun. I will usually do most all the sanding/scrapeing with the metal parts in place. Then stain. Any burnishing of the stained wood is done with all nearby metal in place so no damage will happen to the inlets.
Your finish will more than likely tighten up your pin holes enough that you will need to redrill them by hand with a drill bit held in a pin vise.
I like a coay of finish under metal patch boxes and but plates. You can wax the patch box metal and reinstall while the finish is wet. This saves hasseles with finish in the corners of finely inleted areas. I also reinstall the butt plate immediately as the finish is applied to prevent any damage th the edges of the inlets. True oil will not harm any of your metal pieces. If the finish is put on properly and rubbed back all the oil finish will come off the metal as you go.
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I'm probably not applying the oil properly, because if I leave metal parts on the rifle, and some stay naturally like nose cap, inlays, etc., I get a build u-p of the finish on the metal. I have to steel wool those parts after I'm finished to get the hardened varnish off the metal. The varnish kills the polish and has to be removed IMHO.
I'm unhappy with Truoil. I find that it does not wear worth a bean. And the stains then leach out of the wood creating a mess - light areas of muddy colour.
I have to find a more durable finish, and go to AF for stain. I used to use Fiebing's Leather Dyes to stain my maple stocks, and I always got super definition of curl and a great colour. The dyes seemed to remain in the wood better than Laurel Mountain Forges Stains too. The only drawback is that they are U*V sensitive, and bleach out over a period of several years. I would love to hear from others who use their rifles a lot under all weather conditions,and who don't have this problem.
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Taylor, I probably don't polish my brass as bright as you do. :-[ So a bit of dressing with OOOO steel wool is my final polish. Having seen your fine work the finishing technique that follows is not probably of much use to you, but some of the other forum members might find a usefull detail or two.
I usually do not use True Oil my self. I have mostly used Formby's Tung Oil. I rarely do a relief carved gun so my application process goes as follows. Stain using aniline dyes. Then a slop coat of Formby's, I put as much on as the wood will soak up and keep it wet for 20 to 40 min. Then I allow it to get good and sticky. Then rub all of it off back to the wood with a sock. The finish will be semi dry and will actually get quite hot from the friction of the rub out. Any spots that need more rubbing will have a cloudy appearance. I repeat this process not as aggressively, twice a day as needed until I get the finish I want.
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I've tried true oil and tung oil but when I discovered TEAK oil I never turned back! The stuff made to endure sun, salt, cold and all of the elements aboard a boat where teak wood is used. It has a very fast drying time and can be handled within an hour of application.
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Captjoel,
Teak oil.....what brand? Where is it available? Some additional info would be helpful.
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For the past few rifles, I have used Keith Casteel's gun stock finish. It holds up well and gives a pretty durable finish. I leave all metal parts in place, except for barrel and lock. I am just careful about where I put the finish. If I do get any on the metal, I try to wipe it off with a dry cloth, or use 0000 steel wool once it has dried. As for the pin holes, you might put a drop of oil finish down the hole, if they are not too bad.
Brian
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Of all the guns and rifles I've made, I have only finished one with tung oil - my Brown Bess. it looks as good today as it did when I finished it. So you are obviously onto something. Teak Oil - brand? Where available?
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I just started playing around with Teak oil.... not on guns yet .... but I'm liking the results so far.
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captjoel,i will try a test piece with teak oil.Is there any particular brand you use?
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I rarely use Tru Oil myself. I find it to be rather thick and as someone else pointed out the stain can leach out of it.
I do still use it on certain projects though.
I live in Pacific rain forest and I have actually noticed areas where the stain washed out through the Tru Oil(mostly where my hands hold the gun) probably from getting wet a lot.
Oddly the finish does stay shiny. I haven't quite figured out how it can allow the stain to wash out but still leave a glossy varnish type shine but that is the main reason I don't use it.
I am doing a Hawken rifle right now and I had Tru oil and didn't want to use it.
I also had BLO handy.
I made a batch of home cooked BLO using straight oil with some birdshot dumped in it to add a lead "dryer".
On this batch I got distracted while it was boiling and when I got back to it it was absolutely smoking and the lead had actually melted.
The BLO was also a a dark brown color.
I thought it was a ruined batch due to over boiling.
I rubbed it on a piece of wood though and it is still clear when applied and dried FAST.
I soaked the Hawken stock with it and the curly maple just drank that stuff up. I had to keep applying it as it was soaking into the wood almost as fast as i could apply it for about half an hour.
After about 40 minutes I rubbed it out and it is SUPER beautiful.
I plan on putting more coats on it but it looks so nice with just that first heavy coat rubbed out I'm not sure I need it.
It was accidental that I let the BLO get that hot but it really worked well for a finish and it has been 4 or 5 days now and seems completely dry without any fishy odor I sometimes get with BLO.
I'm pretty happy with it for an accident.
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Star brite Premium Golden Teak Oil, Sealer\Preserver\Finish for Marine Teak. I buy it at Walmart in the hardware section.
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thank you, everyone for the help and advice.A couple of my pin holes are pretty bad i'll try some beeswax and see what happens.
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I'm still partial to bees wax after iron/vinegar . Sometimes I mix the beeswax with walnut oil.
Applied with heat, it soaks right into the wood, and is about as protective as most anything. I've hunted in rain, camped out in waterlogged settings,[ moose hunting ] and so far, so good. I buff on a bit of wax/oil mix at the end of the year.
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Evidently, Teak oil is actually Tung oil boiled with additives. This is their description:
"Premium Teak Oil formula combines virgin Tung Oil with special polymers that bond with Teak and create an extra long-lasting finish. Ideal for all fine woods." Apparently they also add UV protection for marine use.
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Tung oil is a very durable oil. The Chinese, I have read, used it to seal gravel B-29 runways in WW-II.I Think the J*ps used it on military guns as well prior and during WW-II.
Dan
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If you need to fill pin holes (and small gaps on an inlet) try the wax crayon sticks used on furniture. They are usually available at Home Depot in the stain area. Available in several colors so you can match most any finish.
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I'm still partial to bees wax after iron/vinegar . Sometimes I mix the beeswax with walnut oil.
Applied with heat, it soaks right into the wood, and is about as protective as most anything. I've hunted in rain, camped out in waterlogged settings,[ moose hunting ] and so far, so good. I buff on a bit of wax/oil mix at the end of the year.
Bob, Why not just the walnut oil??
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Of all the guns and rifles I've made, I have only finished one with tung oil - my Brown Bess. it looks as good today as it did when I finished it. So you are obviously onto something. Teak Oil - brand? Where available?
I can vouch for this stuff:
http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_seafin.html
Made right here in Seattle. We also use it to touch up the finish on work hardwood floors that had been years ago give Swedish oil finish. Worked great.
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I have had great success with a product from Chem-pak called Pro Custom Oil, product #642-9. It is a tung oil/urethane finish that dries quickly and produces either a satin finish or gloss, depending on how much rubbing you do. It blends very well and is very durable to use and moisture. I have used many products and this is my favorite.
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Another way to get dried oil off inlays or spots you don't want is to use a Q tip dipped in acetone and then squeezed out. A little rubbing and it will take most dried finishes off any area you want. It could also be used to take most of the oil off and then rub with OOOO steel wool afterwards.
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I used the Formby Tung oil finish on my brother's rifle at his request. After 2 years the finish is looking a little worn on the lower fore-arm at the "carry place". I bought a can of Jim Chambers' stock finish last summer for my current build. Do any of you have experience with it?
Thanks.
Best Regards,
JMC
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With regard to the bees wax/ oil mix; It is a softer mix to apply than straight beeswax , and the oil seems to add to the surface finish, about the consistancy of shoe polish, which makes it nice for yearly touch ups.
For the original finish on the gun, I'm just as happy with straight bees wax. It will actually bleed right through into the barrel channel when applied with heat. Can't get much more " waterproof" than that.
Buffs to a nice soft sheen.
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Quite a mix of 'mixtures' to schmutz on a rifle ::) Proves again there is more than one way to skin a cat (or finish/finish a rifle stock! ;D
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I once 'finished' a Cheroke "D" section bow with bacon grease - worked well and sealed the wood from moisture, but I didn't allow the dog close to it.
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Long John - I have previously used the Chambers finish on a couple of rifles. It took a little longer to completely dry than the Pro-custom oil that I'm now using. Eventual durability of the finish was fine and it produced a nice satin sheen. The quality that I liked most was the slight reddish tint of the product. This produced a beautiful warm cast to the eventual finish. I'd likely still be using it, but I had used up can and then locally bought the Pro-custom oil, rather than order the Chambers through the mail. It has been my experience that all Chambers products are first rate.
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I have used the Chambers finish on three rifles and will on the one I am building now. I like it very much. I let it dry 24 hours between coats...in the sun if possible. It can be used for a sealer coat as well as finish coats. If you use shellac as a sealer make sure you take it back to bare wood before applying any oil varnish.
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If you use shellac as a sealer make sure you take it back to bare wood before applying any oil varnish.
How about when using Permalyn for a seal coat? Take it back to bare wood or leave it on the surface before appling the Chambers oil?
Thanks, and God bless
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Well, I don't use Permalyn....but I would guess that the spirits in it might make the shellac on the surface gooey...that is what oil varnish like Chamber's does. In any event it is sealing to the surface, not on the surface that you want. Like filling the grain. I use garnet shellac flakes so it still leqaves a little reddish tint.
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I am an absolute novice at this, but here's my 2 cents. I recently completed a 1792 Contract Rifle (components by Don Stith). My original intent was to use vinegar and iron for the stain, but in the end I chose Aqua Fortis. For the finish I wanted to try the mixture of equal parts beeswax, BLO and turpentine. While I intended to make the mixture myself, I found it on the internet as Tom's 1/3 mix. It is a paste that was easy and fast to apply, dries quickly and leaves a nice, soft satin feel and finish. I cannot attest to the longterm durability yet, but I have had it out in snow and sub-zero temps. Thus far, there is no evidence that it will not maintain its appearance or waterproof properties. If problems do occur, I am convinced that additional applications will bring it back to its original appearance.
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Hi Folks,
Formby's and Minwax tung oil finishes do not contain any tung oil. They call them tung oil finishes because they imitate a tung oil finish. That said, both are fine finishes and if you read my tutorial on finishing a pistol case, I describe using Formby's in my finishing strategy and why I chose to use it to achieve an old "in-the-wood" polish. I finish all of my guns using a sealing coat of 25% polyurethane, 25% polymerized tung oil, and 50% turps. Once the grain begins to fill, I switch to tung oil thinned 50% with turps. If I want a duller finish, I will mix in some BLO although that tends to slow the drying and curing. Tung oil is a superb preservative and is very tough.
dave
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Dave, can you give a link to your tutorial?
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Hi DWS,
Just click on "General Discussion", then scroll down to the tutorial section and click on it. Then scroll down and click on the the thread: "Making and 18th century pistol case: Part 3 finishing the case". Or just click on the link below:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5369.0
dave
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This is the first I've heard that Formbys and Minwax Tung Oil finishes do not contain Tung Oil. Seems to me the Formby's can lists Tung oil as one of the ingredients. I thought both actually did contain small amounts of Tung oil. Confusion results because these are varnishes and don't give you a real oil finish. Same thing with Tru oil (another varnish)- does not give you a true oil finish. Varnishes are ususally a mixture of oils, resins, and drying agents. If you want to do a real, hand rubbed oil finish, steer clear of these and other "oil finishes". I use BLO or Tung to finish my stocks. Apply in thin coats (I cut the first coats to a 50/50 mix of oil and turpentine/mineral spirits), rub in well, wipe off excess, allow to dry, rub back lightly, repeat, repeat, repeat.......
But then that's just my preference.
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Chiefs50,
Formby's and Minwax tung oil finishes do not contain tung oil. Formby's contains compounds derived from tung oil, which no longer have the properties of tung oil because of their conversion to a varnish. I don't think Minwax even has that minimal connection to tung oil. In fact, I think Minwax "tung oil" finish is a mix of varnish and linseed oil. You are correct that you shouldn't use them for a hand rubbed oil finish because they are varnishes not oils. That said, they can be used to finish a gun nicely if a varnish finish is preferred.
dave
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Great info! Can I spin it a bit and ask about making an aged finish? Something that looks like it's been used for 20 years but was actually made last week, ya know?
Geoff
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I'll second the recommendation of Daly's products. I use a good bit of Ben-Matte and Sea-Fin. Use a respirator.
Here's where I get my tung oil. The pure stuff. Never tried the "dark tung oil." Oh--don't be tempted to buy too much at a time. False economy. You'll throw out expensive garbage when it goes hard on you. I drop small clean rocks into the container to keep the air volume minimal.
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html
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I have used "Sno-Seal" on a modern rifle and it looks and wears great.