AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: survtech on February 07, 2024, 01:17:03 AM
-
Tim tells me it's ok for me to post about side-locks but not box-locks.
So here we go:-
These pistols were commissioned by Napoleon and presented to Mariano Luis d'Urquijo, Spanish first minister for Foreign Affairs who later presented
them to José de la Serna e Hinojosa, 1st Count of the Andes and last Viceroy to Peru. (May 1, 1770 – July 6, 1832)
They were passed down by descent to Eugenia de la Rocha y Fontecilla, Marquesa de Angulo great grandmother of the last person to own them before me.
I wrote a paper on them for anyone who is interested. I won't post a link in case I get put in jail again.
Do any members know of a forum who might appreciate my little French box-lock pocket pistols? I really like them but it is a lonely hobby, I haven't yet found anything outside Facebook.
Kind regards
Mike Barnett
Perth
Western Australia
(https://i.ibb.co/18WrVNb/DLS-MOODY.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9s5bX0G)
(https://i.ibb.co/41txgpY/DLS-2-1edited.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KKhHzWL)
(https://i.ibb.co/6JTCdR4/dirtytrigger.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tq73CBH)
(https://i.ibb.co/LxLV0jp/IMG-0025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWKzdYP)
(https://i.ibb.co/K72v1TZ/Claentrig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xG1T4xv)
(https://i.ibb.co/5h6Gq3p/IMG-0277-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JjKmXT6)
-
Welcome back, and thanks for the great photos. I think you will like it here as a variety of topics (within the rules) are discussed and there is much to learn that will help you understand most of the flintlock world. Some of the best in the world frequent this forum.
Hope you enjoy yourself here and become one of our "regulars"
Best regards,
Carl
(PS: It is considered good form to use a name on the forum :))
-
Thank you Carl. I have added my name to my profile.
Kind regards
Mike
-
WOW! Just WOW! Those pistols are really something! And the set trigger... oh my goodness! Thank you for the wonderful pictures!
Welcome to ALR Mike. I'm glad you gave us a second chance. Did you replicate the set trigger? In the one picture they look brand new. Thanks again for posting them.
Ron
-
What amazing pistols!
Thanks for sharing pictures of them.
-
!Pistolas magníficas! Parecian nuevos hasta que vi el óxido debajo del gallo. Gracias por permitirnos verlas.
With high level Spanish connections through Napoleon, I thought they deserved the above Spanish respect. Magnificent pistols! They seemed new until I saw the rust under the cock. Thanks for letting us see them. We Americans seem to love patina on our old guns. I suspect we obscure the fine line of distinction between patina and destructive rust ::)
Bill Paton
-
WOW! Just WOW! Those pistols are really something! And the set trigger... oh my goodness! Thank you for the wonderful pictures!
Welcome to ALR Mike. I'm glad you gave us a second chance. Did you replicate the set trigger? In the one picture they look brand new. Thanks again for posting them.
Ron
Thank you Ron. The set trigger wasn't replicated, just serviced.
Mike
-
!Pistolas magníficas! Parecian nuevos hasta que vi el óxido debajo del gallo. Gracias por permitirnos verlas.
With high level Spanish connections through Napoleon, I thought they deserved the above Spanish respect. Magnificent pistols! They seemed new until I saw the rust under the cock. Thanks for letting us see them. We Americans seem to love patina on our old guns. I suspect we obscure the fine line of distinction between patina and destructive rust ::)
Bill Paton
Thank you Bill, they are lovely, they now live in Florida.
I suspect we obscure the fine line of distinction between patina and destructive rust ::)
I have a fairly simple, perhaps naive view on "patina". If I was presented with a presentation pistol in 1795 and was lucky enough to still be alive in 2024, that pistol would look as good today as it did when it was presented to me. I would service it regularly, as one would with a fine watch, motor car, camera et al.
If I needed a firearm for my job, be that a soldier, policeman etc, my firearms would show the signs of use but they wouldn't be dirty, they wouldn't be gummed up with patina dried-out oil.
With regard to the De La Serna pistols, they were "untouched" when I bought them nearly a quarter off a millennium after they were made, they were very, very close to the point where the patina was going to devour the set trigger mechanism and eat into the lock-plates. The pistols still show that General De La Serna actually fired these beautiful pistols, but now they also show that someone (me) cared enough about them to give them the care and respect they deserved.
Please don't get me wrong, if I had the dagger used by Bucilianus to stab Caeser in the back, I wouldn't try to remove the dried blood, I do understand that some things need to stay as they are, but, for me, one man's patina is another man's corrosion.
Regards
Mike
-
I have never been fond of that style of pistol. But, lots of folks think they are quite nifty.
-
What was your technique for cleaning up the trigger? It came out very nicely? I have this one that I just pulled from my Barber pistol.
(https://i.ibb.co/bJ3DzBB/20240207-161111.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHPzyww)
(https://i.ibb.co/vkWF7Q9/20240207-162502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9W0DFVP)
-
Hi Justin
I'd say it depends on your comfort level in assessing the damage.
If you're not sure, start by using a non-aggressive but potent solvent, say, acetone and a stiff brush.
If that doesn't give encouraging results, go for something a little stronger, an over-the-counter rust remover.
After that, try a brass wire wheel.
I think you've got the message, it's a lot easier to increase aggressive cleaning than it is to mitigate it after you've gone a bit too far.
Personally, I go straight for the wire wheel and a light touch, but I have a trade background and know what healthy steel should look like.
Kind regards
Mike
-
Outstanding pistols and are a collection by them selves.The single set trigger is one of the simpler patterns and sometimes found in an American rifle.I have made a few of these in the long ago past.More complex designs were said to have been made by watch makers in the French speaking part of Switzerland. One of my German customers called them "Der Franzosicherruckstecher".I have never seen one that was taken apart.Thanks again for showing us the collection.
Bob Roller
-
Lovely pistols those are, and in-case complete.
-
Outstanding pistols and are a collection by them selves.The single set trigger is one of the simpler patterns and sometimes found in an American rifle.I have made a few of these in the long ago past.More complex designs were said to have been made by watch makers in the French speaking part of Switzerland. One of my German customers called them "Der Franzosicherruckstecher".I have never seen one that was taken apart.Thanks again for showing us the collection.
Bob Roller
Thanks Bob, they point really well. "More complex designs were said to have been made by watch makers" I had a pistol in my collection with a very elegant mechanism made by Pirmet, whom I think was a watchmaker. Dean Taylor, in an article for the 1982 "Arms Collecting" (Vol.20, No.4) mentions that Boutet recruited gunsmiths, jewellers, locksmiths, sculptors and wood carver, clockmakers and edge tool makers for the Manufacture de Versailles, also
Torsten Lenk's 1939 work; "The Flintlock: its origin and use" mentions Jean Bourgeoys as a watchmaker and gunsmith.
-
Mike beautiful pistol set. What craftsmanship. Perth is one of my favorite places I have ever been. Thanks for sharing.
-
"Mike beautiful pistol set. What craftsmanship. Perth is one of my favorite places I have ever been. Thanks for sharing."
Thank you for the kind words, yes, Perth is a beautiful city, it is somewhat isolated though, the nearest capital city is 1,700 miles away by road.
-
Bob Roller’s comment about complex set triggers from French-speaking Switzerland brings to mind my 22 lb schuetzen rifle made in Morges near Lake Geneva by Bachelard. The set triger is easily removable by a thumb screw holding it in place by the trigger guard. It has a mind boggling 6 stages between the rear and front triggers. It looks like a clockmaker's work.
Bill Paton
-
a mind boggling 6 stages between the rear and front triggers
I'd love to see a photo if there's one available. I never ceases to amaze me what was conceived and achieved a couple of hundred years ago.
In a 1982 article for "Arms Collecting" Dean Taylor had this to say about the rifling of firearms at the Manufacture de Versailles: -
From a contemporary account it is stated that a workman must file 2,500 times to make each groove and two men were able to make three grooves per day. Since Boutet also was about to be given responsibility for presentation arms of honour for the Directoire, records show that ordinary luxury carbines had 3 grooves and superior luxury grades would have 133 grooves.
Doing the math is an exercise in wonderment.
-
PM sent.
Bill Paton
-
Got it Bill, thanks.
Mike
-
What was your technique for cleaning up the trigger? It came out very nicely?
Try the product Evapo-Rust. It's nearly magic. https://www.evapo-rust.com/
(https://www.evapo-rust.com/)
Ron
-
This is an excellent SS trigger design, the best I think and I have made several based on this. Varying spring locations etc as needed. It is pictured as a drawing in George’s “English Guns and Rifles”.
The pistols are a knock out from the workmanship standpoint.
-
What was your technique for cleaning up the trigger? It came out very nicely? I have this one that I just pulled from my Barber pistol.
(https://i.ibb.co/bJ3DzBB/20240207-161111.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHPzyww)
(https://i.ibb.co/vkWF7Q9/20240207-162502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9W0DFVP)
Try acetone and ATF and a stiff tooth brush after a 24 hour soak.