AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: lexington1 on February 25, 2024, 09:55:52 PM
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I thought this was pretty cool. A William Turvey breechloading rifle. The 34" barrel is approx. .75 caliber and has a twist rate of approx. 1/48".
(https://i.ibb.co/NS7RGv3/20240225-110541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8SpPjB)
(https://i.ibb.co/9cLfPhg/20240225-110609.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZGPw9SX)
(https://i.ibb.co/xGf1FzP/20240225-110650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q9WNJmX)
(https://i.ibb.co/fGKYMTy/20240225-110641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qF4MB2c)
(https://i.ibb.co/4WT2DHp/20240225-110810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SNnc1zB)
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I thought this was pretty cool. A William Turvey breechloading rifle. The 34" barrel is approx. .75 caliber and has a twist rate of approx. 1/48".
(https://i.ibb.co/NS7RGv3/20240225-110541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8SpPjB)
(https://i.ibb.co/9cLfPhg/20240225-110609.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZGPw9SX)
(https://i.ibb.co/xGf1FzP/20240225-110650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q9WNJmX)
(https://i.ibb.co/fGKYMTy/20240225-110641.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qF4MB2c)
(https://i.ibb.co/4WT2DHp/20240225-110810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SNnc1zB)
Very nice example. Have you shot it?
How far from the plug is the breech? The Pendrill rifle I have has a smoothbore chamber that is about 5 inches long. Pendrill made similar breech loaders with the plug rhat served as a rear sight.
Mike
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That is really a great piece! About when would that have been made?
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Very neat indeed. I have plans to try and recreate a similar rifle inspired by Turvey's work, its on my "one day..." list :D
Carl
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No, I have no plans to shoot it, but the condition would probably allow it. Turvey died in 1745.
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How is that loaded?
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It was loaded by unscrewing the gadget on top of the barrel that looks like a huge sight. When it was removed you just dropped a slightly oversized ball into the opening and push it against the rifling. Of coarse it could also be loaded like a regular muzzleloader. The ramrod shows quite a bit of wear, so it probably was loaded that way quite a bit.
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Nifty
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I'd like to see more photos, Lex. close up of trigger guard, lock and sideplate if poss!
Lovely rifle!
Breech loaders were quite often used for hunting park deer, where the hunter would sit up in a tree. (According to W. Keith Neil)
Easier to load a breechloader from a tree....
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So I'm thinking this rifle is SOMEWHAT like Mr. Furgesons rifle only it opens from the top and not by turning the trigger guard from below??? :-\
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That is lovely architecture.
I'd be kind of interested to see the threads for the bolt and know how thick the barrel wall is at that point, if you have a mind to take more pictures. I would also be interested in knowing what the probable powder charge was intended to be - it isn't often that we get loading information matched up with a gun, and with that big bore and fast twist it could be interesting...
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That is lovely architecture.
I'd be kind of interested to see the threads for the bolt and know how thick the barrel wall is at that point, if you have a mind to take more pictures. I would also be interested in knowing what the probable powder charge was intended to be - it isn't often that we get loading information matched up with a gun, and with that big bore and fast twist it could be interesting...
I'll get some pics and measurements later this week.
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What a Great rifle !!!!!
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Wow! With a 1 in 48 twist it probably shoots well with relatively mild loads.
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Hi Lexington1,
Thank you for posting these pictures. It is a wonderful gun and the design typifies English rifles from the 1730s-1750s, muzzleloading and breechloading. The screw plug breech goes way back into the 17th century. Sometimes it was on top, sometime on the bottom. These were "deer park" rifles and slow loading was not an issue. I know many are focused on the breech loading mechanism but the gun has lessons for any English rifles of the period. First and foremost, the breech and wrist are massive! You can see that this is a very robust gun through the lock and wrist sections. The famous Turvey rifle in RCA 1 is the same. The published photos just don't reveal how big the gun is. It was an eye opener for me when I saw the RCA 1 Turvey at the exhibition at Rockford Plantation. Think Edward Marshall rifle size rather than English fowler size. John George in his great book "English Guns and Rifles" described how English rifle makers during the mid to late 18th century subscribed to the idea of many grooves and fast twist even in big bores. John George discussed how that notion created very accurate rifles shooting patched round balls but only with relatively light loads for the calibers. Otherwise, the patched bullet would strip the fast twist rifling. He wrote how those rifles worked well out to 100 yards but failed miserably at longer ranges. That was the source of the great debate about rifling that propelled Ezekiel Baker to the forefront. He knew that a slow twist would better suit patched round ball accuracy under heavy loads for distance and the number of grooves did not matter that much. Keep in mind that before Benjamin Robins published his paper on ballistics in 1742, no gunmakers anywhere understood the physics controlling rifling and accurate shooting. Finally, it is interesting to note correspondence by Phillip Lee (ancestor to Harry Lee and Robert E. Lee) in the 1740s extolled Turvey rifles proclaiming they were much better than the local products.
dave
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Lexinton, that looks like a VERY robust rifle.
Taylor's 48" twist 16 bore Joseph Lang does well with 85gr. 2F and would likely shoot even better with more powder, perhaps 100gr easy.
lotsa grooves in 1853 or thereabouts.
(https://i.ibb.co/yyh6z4D/100-7311.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFb6WYP)
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The Turvey rifle is robust, but it doesn't seem at all bulky when you handle it. It fits me very well. I have an English fowler from the same era, with the same furniture, etc. and it is very apparent that it is a quite a bit smaller than the Turvey rifle.
It is funny that you mention the twist rate in relation to Ezekial Baker. I have two Baker rifle repos, one by myself from TRS parts, and another by Peter Dyson. Mine has a Colerain 1/66" twist and the Dyson rifle has the original 1/120 (I think) twist. I am anxious to try both out to see if they shoot differently.
Hi Lexington1,
Thank you for posting these pictures. It is a wonderful gun and the design typifies English rifles from the 1730s-1750s, muzzleloading and breechloading. The screw plug breech goes way back into the 17th century. Sometimes it was on top, sometime on the bottom. These were "deer park" rifles and slow loading was not an issue. I know many are focused on the breech loading mechanism but the gun has lessons for any English rifles of the period. First and foremost, the breech and wrist are massive! You can see that this is a very robust gun through the lock and wrist sections. The famous Turvey rifle in RCA 1 is the same. The published photos just don't reveal how big the gun is. It was an eye opener for me when I saw the RCA 1 Turvey at the exhibition at Rockford Plantation. Think Edward Marshall rifle size rather than English fowler size. John George in his great book "English Guns and Rifles" described how English rifle makers during the mid to late 18th century subscribed to the idea of many grooves and fast twist even in big bores. John George discussed how that notion created very accurate rifles shooting patched round balls but only with relatively light loads for the calibers. Otherwise, the patched bullet would strip the fast twist rifling. He wrote how those rifles worked well out to 100 yards but failed miserably at longer ranges. That was the source of the great debate about rifling that propelled Ezekiel Baker to the forefront. He knew that a slow twist would better suit patched round ball accuracy under heavy loads for distance and the number of grooves did not matter that much. Keep in mind that before Benjamin Robins published his paper on ballistics in 1742, no gunmakers anywhere understood the physics controlling rifling and accurate shooting. Finally, it is interesting to note correspondence by Phillip Lee (ancestor to Harry Lee and Robert E. Lee) in the 1740s extolled Turvey rifles proclaiming they were much better than the local products.
dave
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Would you not use the loading rod to make positive the projectile is against the charge ? Could this be the reason the rod looks used ?
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I have not seen this rifle, but usually the rifling starts ahead of where the ball sits, so it is a swage fit.
I don't think the rod would be used to check it was against the powder.
Most likely used for loading in the conventional way, and possibly for cleaning in the field.
Best,
R.
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I would expect those threads might become seized and thus was loaded from the muzzle for much or most of it's use.