AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Kurt on February 28, 2024, 06:37:42 AM
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Does anyone regularly hunt whitetails with a 36-caliber rifle? How does it perform on them? Where I am nothing smaller than a 44 caliber may be used so I am just curious. My great-grandfather had two 36s and a shotgun but I don't think there were very many deer around while he was alive. About 9 years after his death PA began stocking deer(1907). Thanks, Kurt
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A 36 caliber even if legal is a rat killer.Anyone who "hunts"animals of any kind should have a gun that can is more than adequate.What does a ,36 caliber ball weigh.I think a 44 or 45 weighs about 140 grains.The 58 as I remember weighs under 300 .Maybe a good discussion can get going on this subject.I remember reading about a man who claimed he killed a buffalo with a 36 caliber ball and that is hard to believe..
Bob Roller
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I have not personally done it. I have a good friend in Yuma, AZ. who has killed several Coues deer with a .36 using round ball. He said the ranges were under 40 yards since he was sitting a stock tank.
The Scandinavians were known to shoot Moose with .40 cal rifles using round ball.
When you consider how quickly a round ball looses velocity, keeping the shots close is important.
Biggest thing I have killed with a .36 was a javelina the range was about 18 yards. Complete pass through both lungs and heart.
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Deer are killed every year with a stick.
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Didn’t Wild Bill Hickock use a .36 caliber Navy to kill Davis Tutt in their famous gunfight in Kansas City? At a fairly long range for hand guns, also. The .36 roundball will certainly kill if placed in the right spot, just as the largest calibers will only wound if placed in the wrong spot.
.36 is legal here in Tennessee, but I would use a larger caliber unless it was a survival situation.
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.36 is fine for deer, bigger than most centerfires used to hunt them with… just sayin
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A 36 has probably taken many deer but I personally don't think a 67 grain round lead ball up to the job for any of the generally heavier northern deer. But shot placement is always the most important factor.
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I'd prefer a much heavier round ball than 65gr.(.350"), just saying.
I firmly believe States with .44cal. minimum balls size, are pointed in the right direction.
Deer can be and are killed by people with .22 RF's too, but that doesn't mean . 22's are good for killing deer.
Possible, yes, morally correct - well, you be the judge.
Much depends on the size of deer you are talking about. Muley or whitetail deer weighing over 200pounds,
or coastal sitka/blacktails dressing out at 40 pounds?
If you were hunting Morsby Island of the Queen Charlotte islands of B.C., now called Haida Gwaii or some such
for those little fellas, a mature 5 point (10Eastern count) can dress out as small as 30 pounds, then I'd say, within
50yards, I suppose a .36 might be a preferred calibre.
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For many years the minimum caliber for deer in Florida was .40. In the last few years, because of the high-powered air rifles, the minimum caliber for both air guns and muzzleloaders are now .30. I personally don't think it is a good idea, but I have successfully taken both a wild pig and a spike buck at point blank range with a .30. The group of men that I hunt with have taken several wild pigs and 2 bucks at close range with .32 calibers. The quality of the shot and short distance had a lot to do with it. I prefer larger calibers for the larger game. James Levy
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Good luck getting that close to an Eastern Oregon mule deer. However it is all about putting your shot exactly where it needs to go, not just in the area of the vitals or spine. I for one prefer my bigger game to be shot with a .54 caliber, but if shooting at what I call "archery distance" I might consider a 40 or 36 as long as it is a standing still animal and I have a perfect broadside shot. This is just my opinion.
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Can you kill a whitetail with a .36? Yes. Should you use a .36 to hunt whitetail? NO. Regardless of what the game laws allow or disallow, I personally don’t think it’s ethical. Lots of better choices.
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There was a bear hunter who took his .36 to a gunsmith and told him, "...make this a .38. I had to shoot the last bear twice." He was from PA I think. Cant remember his name.
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Where you hunt, might have a direct bearing on what you pack when hunting big game.
"When you go out to shoot a hare, be prepared to meet a tiger"
"for my spaniels have roused a panther when I expected them to flush a partridge"
"I have found my self face to face with wild elephants when looking for jungle fowl and
I have almost trodden on the tail of a tiger, when stalking a spotted buck".
Now, we only have grizzlies, here, but more now than ever before in history due to the moratorium on shooting them.
To go deer hunting with a .36 would be just about as foolish as a .45 - here.
Buddy of mine was out on a date with his soon to be wife, when they walked right into a grizzle boar on a logging road in the middle of a cut-block.
This was many years ago, and that young lady saw more grizzlies, when out walking with Keith than about anyone else living in this Province.
Keith was armed with a .45 calibre TC, loaded with round ball & 45gr. of powder for bunnies or grouse.
He said "did I EVER feel foolish, standing there with that rifle".
The bear just wandered off the trail and did nothing towards them.
From then on, he until 1986, he packed a .54, then in 86, the .75, a Purdy Styled rifle Taylor built for him after he saw my .69.
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Sort of, "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" Daryl!
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Is a 38 special with a round ball load a good deer cartridge? No, of course not. That is similar to the 36 round ball ML as far as external ballistic performance. How about a single OOO buckshot from a shotshell?
As far as extra velocity in a 36 long rifle, it slows very quickly.
We have an ethical responsibility to make a clean kill. Get a bigger gun.
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Become a better hunter and get close.
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We all “need” lots of guns! Probably a .36, a .40, a .45, a .50, a .54, and a .62 rifle. ;D
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Where you hunt, might have a direct bearing on what you pack when hunting big game.
"When you go out to shoot a hare, be prepared to meet a tiger"
"for my spaniels have roused a panther when I expected them to flush a partridge"
"I have found my self face to face with wild elephants when looking for jungle fowl and
I have almost trodden on the tail of a tiger, when stalking a spotted buck".
Now, we only have grizzlies, here, but more now than ever before in history due to the moratorium on shooting them.
To go deer hunting with a .36 would be just about as foolish as a .45 - here.
Buddy of mine was out on a date with his soon to be wife, when they walked right into a grizzle boar on a logging road in the middle of a cut-block.
This was many years ago, and that young lady saw more grizzlies, when out walking with Keith than about anyone else living in this Province.
Keith was armed with a .45 calibre TC, loaded with round ball & 45gr. of powder for bunnies or grouse.
He said "did I EVER feel foolish, standing there with that rifle".
The bear just wandered off the trail and did nothing towards them.
From then on, he until 1986, he packed a .54, then in 86, the .75, a Purdy Styled rifle Taylor built for him after he saw my .69.
Here is a period Scandinavian solution to the bear problem, circa 1868 IRCC:
(https://i.ibb.co/k0nsns7/4663147319-407d487829-o.jpg)
Lord Grizzly is sub-species of the Eurasian Brown bear, for what it is worth.
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Close to 30 years ago I was at an indoor archery shoot with one of my self backed osage bows, when some compound wielding, large corn fed ole boy in bib overalls asked me """they let you hunt with that skinny stick"""....I politely suggested that he looked like he would dress out at about 280# , that his chest was bigger than most large bucks I had taken , and if he were willing to get on his knees down range at about 15 yards I could easily send one of my 600 grain, 2 blade cedar arrows right through his chest, carhartts and all and put an end to his query.
To those who doubt what a well placed .350 ball will do out of a well tuned rifle I suggest the same thing. When you learn to hunt deer without the aid of range finders and tree stands you will be amazed at what little firepower is needed to bring down big game.
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We all “need” lots of guns! Probably a .36, a .40, a .45, a .50, a .54, and a .62 rifle. ;D
According to Lt. James F., rifles yadda, yadda yadda, start at 16 bore. I concur.
I replaced "for dangerous game", with yadda, etc.
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There are a lot of happy hunters that think what ever small can do, big can do better. ;)
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So who if any can answer the question?
Does anyone regularly hunt whitetails with a 36-caliber rifle?
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I do but they aren't muzzleloaders.
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So who if any can answer the question?
Does anyone regularly hunt whitetails with a 36-caliber rifle?
I'd say the no one regularly hunts deer with a .36. I knew a poacher that used a .22 mag quite successfully.
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Thanks for all the informative replies. For many years I wondered why my great-grandfather had two 36-caliber rifles. When I learned, in my teens, that deer in PA were even more scarce back then, than in the 50s and early 60s around my home in Southwestern PA I guessed he used them for small game or to dispatch livestock. He butched for people and cattle were more wild. One of his rifles had target sights so targets were probably a pastime. He lived until 1897 but never owned a cartridge gun.
I know some states have little to no regulations on the type of guns that can be used for hunting. I believe West Virginia is that way. Some people learn from early on to use what they have and their hunting style reflects the rifle they have. One of the replies mentions getting close to deer. As in archery hunting, I estimate.
I have 50 and 54-caliber flintlock long rifles, and a couple of 50-caliber Hawken-type rifles too. The Hawken guns became famous as Western rifles, referencing "Oregon Muledeer" and that got me thinking why a 54 caliber long rifle would fall to a Hawken rifle and length immediately comes to mind(riding horse), but also heavier powder charges to push balls faster, for use on elk and big bears. You all know this stuff.
I pretty much eliminated the idea that GGP used his rifles for deer, but just as many of us choose to hunt with flintlocks or other even more limiting implements, I thought maybe there was someone who preferred the challenge of getting close with a 36-caliber rifle and making a precise shot? Maybe they better not say.
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I would suggest, that a shot from a .36 cal. taken from a tree stand - range maybe 10' to 20yards might work, however, must remember, that ball will turn into a disk
which will limit penetration. Hit bone (plunging shot to coin a mariner phrase)and it is likely to stop.
Even 00 buckshot at an initial vel. of only 1,300fps expands considerably on 'game'.
A normal charge of say, 35 to 40gr. 3F will drive a .350" ball to about 1,800fps, maybe slightly higher than that. That's over 1/2 ball weight in powder. (Ball - 65gr.)
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May have been a few taken on Stoner Creek, mindful of shot placement….
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I used to use 65 grains of 3f in order to knock down 1/2 inch AR 500 Ram silhouettes at 100 yards. They went down with authority. They were the NRA pistol silhouette size.
North American deer are thin skinned. All the deer that I have killed using modern shotgun slugs have flattened to the size of a quarter. They lodge under the skin . All the deer I have shot with a round ball have been pass throughs. Good broadside shots under 50 yards with a 36 round ball with an adequate load will kill a deer.
The only reason for not using it is that it will not leave much of a blood trail. In my opinion there is no substitute for cubic inches. The bigger the hole the more the .blood
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I'd say if you are accurate and comfortable with your rifle, you'd be fine. I'd limit it to 40 or 50 yards and go with head shots though. No meat waste, and they go down quick. I use a .45 with roundball for my deer, and have shot them out to 120 yds with a vitals shot.
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Since a lot of deer have been killed with a 22 LR years ago by people I know pretty well. Within its range a 36 will get the job done. But shot placement is critical. A shot kust over the heart will kill one pretty soon I would think. I know that at 50 yards or so a 45 RB driven with 45 gr of FFF from a FL rifle will kill deer dead. In about 50 yards of running which is pretty typical. No matter what they are shot with.
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A .36 prb can kill a deer, has likely killed a few and I imagine there are any number of .36 adherents who use them. I, myself, have, in the dim past, used a .22 Hornet to take several. The .36 is a great caliber when used on game that's suitable for a small rifle. Since the mid 1960s I've drawn the line at the .45 where deer are concerned. IMHO shooting deer with a .36 is as much a stunt as it is ethical hunting and perhaps more so. In survival situations one must use what one has available. But when a better choice of caliber is readily available there's really no choice.
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Shot placement and adequate penetration. Der are not hard to kill.
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Bullet placement is critical, but you still have to reach a killing spot. I read somewhere that Karamojo Bell took elephants with a .256, and that a good many men were killed trying to imitate him. I don’t think he was dealing with muzzleloader velocities. Killing any animal should be quick and sure.
Lynn
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The 36 caliber would not be ideal but as some here have mentioned it could be used if nothing else was available. It is my impression the early timers valued the shotgun or Fowler for its versatility and I understand why, but lead being scarce probably explains the small caliber rifle.
An elderly neighbor lady(when I was very young) related a story of Indians traveling through her area with a travois with lead on it. She was afraid of Indian attacks when she got into her 90s and became senile. Probably from stories she heard as a child.
I had an uncle who lived in the Sierra Nevadas as a gold prospector (1940s) and he regularly shot deer through the lungs with a 22lr and then followed them till they succumbed. He also had a rubber hose he called his "Oklahoma credit card". Black sheep, but remembered.
I have a 32 and would never consider shooting at a deer with it, but then again I have 45, 50s, and 54s for that. Still I can't help but wonder what our ancestors might have done and needed to do that we in our modern time wouldn't consider.
I very much enjoy reading everyone's posts. Kurt
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Check your game laws. A .36 for deer might not be legal in your State. Some have
calibre restrictions, others have bullet/ball weight restrictions.
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Yes, PA requires at least 44 caliber.
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Personally I wouldn't use a .36. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I never liked the effect of a .50 caliber on deer.
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I'd say if you are accurate and comfortable with your rifle, you'd be fine. I'd limit it to 40 or 50 yards and go with head shots though. No meat waste, and they go down quick. I use a .45 with roundball for my deer, and have shot them out to 120 yds with a vitals shot.
I'd never advise someone to take a head shot on a deer. I've seen a fellow attempt to take one and took off the lower jaw of the doe. Doe ran into posted land. Not that where it ran would make a difference as it would likely lead to a very slow and painful death.
Take the heart\lung shot. I've not seen one fail yet.
And why use a .36 when .45 cal's and larger are easily available and certainly do the job .
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I hate to resurrect this thread, but, yeah, there is always a but, shooting the 36, in the back yard this morning, I shot a plastic 3 quart, Walmart brand, lemonade jug filled with water, at about 10 feet, just to see what would happen, with no thought to this thread.
A .345 ball with a .020 denim patch, powered by 35 gr of old, 3F GOEX, did not penetrate both sides of the jug. There was a fair bulge from the impact of the ball, on the back side of the jug, but no full penetration, which was something of a surprise. The jug was about 5" in diameter.
Some of the comments, above, about hunting deer with a 36 mentioned using pretty heavy charges on steel at long, for the 36, ranges. IF, someone thought deer hunting with a 36 caliber muzzle loading rifle, was a good idea, I do, highly, suggest heavy powder charges, fired at short ranges, for proper penetration.
As an addendum, I usually shoot this rifle into a stack of old magazines and catalogues, at about 20 yards, when practicing in the back yard. That little ball is mangled pretty badly when recovered for re-casting. Penetration is about 5 inches, there, as well.
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Sometimes, all you got is all you got. Grandpa used to tell us, “poor folks gots poor ways”. But we didn’t know no better. We used our .22 (not BP) to hunt deer. They die just fine if you hit them right. But if you have the means, there are better choices than .36. I would use at least a .40 or .45.
Ez
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I met a man in the early1960's who was called "Indian John"because of his appearance and he got deer with a 22 single shot whenever he needed the meat.One shot between the eye and ear and that was it.He wasn't much for fish and game laws.There may still be two idiots still around that might have survived an encounter with John and they were fortunate if they did.They robbed him at gun point and took his deer and rifle,It was winter and snow was deep and those two made the mistake of turning to leave and John hollered at them and they found themselves gazing into the muzzle of a big revolver..THEY had the pleasure of being left in the snow naked and John had their guns and the keys to their truck.In the hands of a man like John the 22 was all that was needed but he still had one of the center fire rifles he took away from those would be thieves.I asked John if he thought those two survived and he said"I don't know and don't care."I haven;t thought if this for years but the small bore hunting rifle thread revived memories of a colorful character.
Bob Roller
I asked him if they survived and he said "I don't know and don't care".I think 'Indian John"passed away about 50 years ago.
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in the 50sthrough the 70s my daddy hunted with a variety of guns. but his main gun was a Remington 550-1 simi auto 22, i still have the gun. it is un-telling how many SC deer he killed with that gun, and anything else that needed killin. i have skinned deer that was shot behind the shoulder and hit 3-4 times at close range, the 22s would go slam through to the hide on the offside breaking ribs. daddy always used solid bullets for penetration. another favorite for him and a lot of other rednecks was the 22 hornet, i killed a buck last year with a hornet, one shot, the deer made it 20 yds hit in the shoulder. it is like this, bullet placement. any animal cannot live more than a few seconds with no air or blood to the brain if hit wrong with any caliber you most likely will not find them i am planning to kill a deer this year with my 36 flintlock, the shot will be no more than 50yds and i will bet there will be a very dead deer at the other end at about 50yds, good story Mr. Bob,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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A local gentleman, who is not departed and was a survivor of the Battle of the Bulge used an old Stevens 44 in 25-20 for years to kill whatever needed killing. Deer, turkeys, hogs and beeves. He was a poor man and used what he had. You can talk about what is ideal, but what you have often makes the world go around. He was never at a loss for meat, nor wasted game. Sometimes we get in the Ideal Mood and forget what is expedient. The Eskimos used to use the old surplus .22 Hornet survival guns to take Polar Bears with 45 grain full metal jacket bullets in the US Army surplus ammo. It's where you put the bullet, not the size of the gun. A gut shot deer with a .458 magnum is still a gut shot deer. A .22 bullet or .17 caliber bullet through the brain stops them in their tracks. An old coworker said the best rifle he ever owned was a .22 magnum. He used it for squirrels, turkey and deer. He was a patient hunter and only took head shots on relaxed game. Keep the freezer full. There is the ethical side of things and there is what works for poor people.
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Now I’m gonna preface this by stating my favorite deer rifle is an old Savage 250-3000 and I’ve killed a lot of deer with it, so I’m not one of those guys that hunts squirrels with a 300 Win. Mag. there is no way you should lump this 25 caliber even remotely close to any muzzleloader. In my state the smallest caliber you can use on deer in a muzzleloading gun is .40. And that’s about right if you can use lead projectiles, but we can’t because the non-hunters in the state banned lead projectiles without considering the weight difference.
A .36 caliber is not a deer stopper. And I don’t care how many old poachers tell you how many deer they killed with a .22 I want to hear how many they crippled. They probably know that number as well as how many they killed, it just doesn’t make a good story.
Hungry Horse
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As long as man walks in the Flesh he will always place limits and draw lines based upon his own limitations....."I can't draw and shoot a 60# longbow well so surely you can't"....."Why would you disrespect deer so much that you would hunt them with self backed wooden bows when easy to shot compounds are much more humane????"..... "Flintlocks limit your hunting range and they have low muzzle pressure , that is why I use 300 Win mag"........"Why would anyone even attempt to catch 18"+ striped bass on a 3wt flyrod with 6x tippet when *ugly stiks* are cheap and available and can handle 25# test?"......."I cripple half of the animals I shoot at so you must cripple half of what you shoot at".......get the picture???
To those hunting with the .36 or thinking about it.....Do it and don't look back!
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Late seventies jobs were scarce. My only real income was trapping. A few temporary jobs in the summer. I lived in a rural part of CO. and was newly married.
I never shot a deer with a 36 caliber muzzle loader but killed a few with a 22 long rifle. Its like bow hunting. Get close shoot careful. Most of them heart shot. They don't go to far. A shot in the throat when they are looking at you hits the spine and they just drop.
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A shot like that with my .45cal. dropped one in it's tracks. The ball missed the spine and exited the back if it's neck.
75gr. 3F .457" ball, .022 denim patch.
I did a coup de grass with my wife's .36 loaded with a 128gr. slug.
That one entered the neck, then slid down the spine to stop between its shoulder blades. The follow up with my second .45 ball was in the ear.
Those maxi-balls did not like going in a straight line after hitting the animal. The overall design sucked. They seemed to collapse into themselves instead of expanding.
Bunch of guys up here found that out on moose with .50's and .54's.
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It's a moot point in MD since you need .40 to be legal. However these "Do you think (blank) will kill a deer" questions show up on archery forums all the time. Everyone wants to walk a tightrope on using minimum or sub-minimum bows or calibers to kill deer. Why not use a proven effective deer killing caliber and be done with it? Nor worries and no lost or wounded game.