AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: jim m on August 19, 2008, 02:17:37 AM
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ignition just a tad slow, click then boom. chambers late ketland lock, 1/4 white lightnin touch hole liner. bottom of hole is even with top of pan and dead center. any suggestions. works best with a very small amount of powder in pan
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Jim, What's the barrel size? What powder are you using to prime?
Cheers,
ken
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Appears to be the same settup as mine, except for the lock. Mine has very fast ignition, which Taylor remarks about, each time we're out and he shoots only Chambers locks pretty much now. They are fast, but this Dickert L&R is a wee bit faster.
: If the Dickert will fit the period and lock mortice, it might be worth a try. But then, maybe I just lucked out. The geometry of this lock of mine just seems to work well.
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7/8 x .45 cal. liner is drilled out to 5/64 and edge of liner is 1/64" ahead of breech plug. face of breech plug is also highly polished. 3f for main charge and 4f in the pan
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Out of curiosity, why did you drill out the line to 5/64? Its possible with 3f that you may be getting a self priming action similar to overpriming with a fuse effect. Many folks counter sink the touch hole a little but don't increase the size. Saw a 45 one time loaded very light and vent the whole charge out the touch hole. That touch hole was about 3/32. I got to put a new vent in that rifle for the individual.
DP
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I run a .070" vent and get good velocity with that size per grain of powder, along with excellent ignition. I also use 4F in the pan.
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Based on my chance to time vent holes and vent locations:
1. Vent location is fine.
2.Vent hole is plenty big. I think Optimum is closer to .070 - (no. 52 bit??); you might be a tad big.
I'd try the following:
1. Cone the exterior with a countersink. Not much - I like to do it very slowly with a drill or by hand.
2. Prime as close to the vent as possible - not banked away. (Banked away was 15% slower in the tests I did. The closer the better.)
3. Try Swiss Null B - In my tests with an L&R pan, .5 gr was faster than 1 grain.
I know that no. 2 above sounds like heresy, but it is based on repeatable testing proceedures. If you want to see the test results try the following, especially parts 4-6:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php)
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I was hoping you would respond, Larry. As to coning on the outside, the White Lightening vents are quite thin walled between the inside cone and the outside flat. of course, this depends on how much is filed off to make it flush, which is directly effected by how deeply one countersinks the vent in the barrel. When m rifle is loaded, I can see powder in the vent's inside cone, from the outside. If I was to cone the outsdie, it woudl be way too thin and burn out prematurely.
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.070" is a #50 drill bit size
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One needs to basically make sure there are no ridges from drilling or whatever on the outside. 5/64 is .781. Some of the old catalogs like Dixie recommends 3/32 but as a use without an insert. You can drill them out if you want, but with 3f in a 45, I think the 1/16 works fine. I have used other vents and counter sunk them to channel the flash ( and have also counter sunk the interior that goes into the barrel). Otherwise I think Larry is correct in that the positioning of the powder in the pan would be the only other alternative. One thing I used to do was to put the pick inside the vent and leave it when I poured the powder to make sure everything is clear.
DP
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David,
WOW!! .781 would indeed be a large touch hole. I think you meant .0781". I always drill my vent hole out to .070". I have been doing this for years with no problems at all.
Randy Hedden
www.harddogrifles.com
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Screwed up didn't I. .0781 according to charts. Probably wouldn't matter all that much whether .0625 or .07.
DP
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Indeed, 5/64th is way too big. The stock white lightnin' is .060 I believe. I've drilled them out to .067 as well as .070 with good results.
KW
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Screwed up didn't I. .0781 according to charts. Probably wouldn't matter all that much whether .0625 or .07.
DP
If I calculated the areas of a .0625 touch hole as opposed to a .070 touch hole correctly, and I probably didn't, the larger TH has a 78% larger area than the smaller. IMHO, that is significant increase in area.
I am sure one of the mathematicians on the board will correct my calculations. ???
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Number 52 stuck in my mind because that was the last one I did. Here are three that I would begin with:
52-----0.064
51-----0.067
50-----0.070
When asked I usually suggest starting one numbered bit size bigger than 1/16". I feel going bigger than a number 50 won't help. If one of these won't light your fire then there is something else wrong.
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Jim,
With a flint in the jaws dry fire the gun a bunch of times paying attention to what you see and hear happening, the "click" you describe before the "boom" sometimes means something is slowing the lock down, can be a weak set trigger also if you are using those. Your problem may be happening before the prime even ignites.
If that's not the case, you can try watching as somebody else fires the gun, may make it easier to see how it acts after the priming powder is lit
Doesn't look like it from your picture, but make sure that your frizzen isn't hitting the barrel or binding anywhere, even a little will slow you down.
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thanks a million for all the replies. spent the day at the range today and this is what I learned. this lock just does not like very much prime in the pan!! if it looks like there isn't enough in the pan, then it is just right. also, today anyway, picking the vent before each shot helped. was able to get the sight dialed in and things are much better. also if the vent hole size turns out to be a problem, I have another insert and will start over. again thanks for the advice.
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Ive always only used percussion ML's until now. What grade powder do flinters use? 2f,3f ? and has anyone ever put say 5 grains of 4f powder first in the muzzle then fill the rest with 2f or 3 ff so that ignition time would improve?
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Heres something I made (video) last night when I was bored ( cut and paste) . http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=9au4pj&s=4
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Ive always only used percussion ML's until now. What grade powder do flinters use? 2f,3f ? and has anyone ever put say 5 grains of 4f powder first in the muzzle then fill the rest with 2f or 3 ff so that ignition time would improve?
Depends on what a person likes to shoot from their flintlock. I've used both
2f and 3f all the way down to .45 caliber and up to .54 caliber (as that's the largest caliber I own), and have had no problem with either. I've even tested priming with 2f with a 2f load. It works, though one can tell it boarders on slower ignition.
There really is no reason to duplex load with 4f in my opinion. On a humid day one might find that 4f becoming soupy in the breech packed very tightly, causing a missfire or hangfire. I personally don't see this as gaining anything.
What I have found that works for me is that on humid days I prime with 3f, and on very low humid days I like to use the 4f as prime. Again it becomes a matter of choice in which powder you like to use as a main charge.
I might make one quick addition here... I'm not sure 5 grains of 4f under your main charge would even amount to anything of value depending on the location of your vent hole?
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I'm with Candle Snuffer on adding anything to the main charge. I find 3F and 2F both ignite at the same rate in the barrel. I always use 4F for priming. We don't get very high humidity here very often and even when we do, with a water filled pan after loading, wiping it out with a cloth and priming with 4F results in a fboom - normal, fast ignition.
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As for coning the outside of a White Lightning it depends on how deep the intitial countersink was when first installed. The deeper the CS the more distance between the face and the internal cone.
Since the initial CS is mostly guesswork, some rifles really need an outside CS, some don't. Personally I treat all mine to the CS. But sometimes you can hardly see it.
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thanks a million for all the replies. spent the day at the range today and this is what I learned. this lock just does not like very much prime in the pan!! if it looks like there isn't enough in the pan, then it is just right. also, today anyway, picking the vent before each shot helped. was able to get the sight dialed in and things are much better. also if the vent hole size turns out to be a problem, I have another insert and will start over. again thanks for the advice.
Just a heads up on using the pick.....Be careful when so doing, in particular when you bend the pick to go round the flash guard (if you use one) As that pick gets rough and pitted she will wear the vent larger fairly soon then you have more headaches..
Don't ask me how I know this ::)
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I often see reference to "picking" the vent here. I've always found mine to be self cleaning. I also never wipe the pan or the flint edge as I have seen some shooters do. The only time I get misfires or hang fires is if I let the flint get dull.
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Ditto, Harry. I don't find any advantage to wiping flint of frizzen = although I've been know to do it now and them, to slow things down in a tgiht competition.
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I guess it is a good stalling technique Daryl... ;)
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If the vent is just barely ahead of the breech then some of the inside part of the cone of you liner may covered. A lot of the old guns had a sort of tapered groove filed into the face of the plug to alleviate this. You might want to try pulling your plug and lay it against the outside of your barrel to see how the plug and the liner match up. If the plug end overlaps the liner by any appreciable amount use a small round file to create a notch for the vent.
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In my experience coning the outside of a vent is a mistake.
Vent liners similar to the White Lightning should be installed so that the length of the drilled vent is very short. .030 max. Almost nothing is best with the WL internal design or similar.
This puts the charge right next to the priming. Never needs picking or very seldom and this is usually because a flake of fowling has gotten in the way to insulate the main charge.
I have never seen a lock slowed down by filling the pan. Light priming charges are the prime cause of flashes in the pan right in there with using coarse powder. Yes, using ffg makes my rifle less reliable.
If the vent is right or even close and its properly primed the main cause of slow ignition is the lock. Its wood bound or it needs modifications.
Poor spark due to a bad frizzen, hardness or alloy or the angles are wrong and its throwing the first sparks in front of the pan and some finally get into the pan and light it. Changing the angle will usually fix this. Another thing is a too weak frizzen spring that lets the frizzen move too readily.
if I had a slow lock with decent springs I would bend or otherwise modifiy the cock to point the jaws down a little more.
Dan
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After loading, I see powder next to the pan when looking into the vent. It's always there, 2f or 3F for the main charge. I've had flashes in the pan only when using 2F for the main charge. Each time this happens, I look at the vent and there is a small piece of fouling blocking the vent hole. It doesn't happen when using 3F for the main charge. I am asuming the 2F blows more fouing out the vent, or in larger pieces than 3F. This is in my .40 barrel. I've not had it happen with the .45 barrel, which is interesting. I'm assuming when I pull the cock back, a small piece of fouling falls from the side of the flint and sometimes blocks the vent - or the vent gets blocked by a piece of fouling as I close the frizzen after priming - I can see no other cause. It happens quite infrequently, but it happens. It cannot happen as the charge goes off as the .070 vent blows hard when the charge ignites - getting 1,850fps with the load so pressure is fairly high. If I was shooting squib loads, I could see that as being the cause - this isn't the case. As I said before, I always prime with 4F. It's rate of burn(consumption) in the pan iseems faster or it develops greater heat on flashing. With 4F, ignition is noticably faster than when using 3F or 2F for priming.
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Daryl
I tend to get slower ignition and more misfires with FFG Swiss in the pan of the Manton lock. But its a hard high polished powder and may not light from sparks as easily.
I also think that FFFFG is hotter, it makes more heat faster due to its faster burn rate (near 4 times FFG) the smaller grains should also "light" easier. The faster heat rise has to make for a faster light through the vent.
This has been tested with timers by Larry P. and FFFFG is marginally faster. But this is just for ignition time in the pan. How fast it lights the main charge would need another battery of tests. But if it ahsa faster heat rise which I think it must then it has to get the ball out the barrel faster.
Dan
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Daryl
I tend to get slower ignition and more misfires with FFG Swiss in the pan of the Manton lock. .. . . . . .This has been tested with timers by Larry P. and FFFFG is marginally faster. But this is just for ignition time in the pan. How fast it lights the main charge would need another battery of tests. But if it has faster heat rise which I think it must, then it has to get the ball out the barrel faster.
Dan
Hi Dan.
I saw your post as I was getting ready to leave for Friendship. I agree with your conclusion. In the last experiment, I timed from pan ignition to barrel ignition. But, I was comparing vent location and priming powder location instead of the differences between powders. However using what I learned, a similar series of tests could be done where priming powder was the variable.
It seems like I've worked all around your suggestion:
different powders - but lock only - (ffg, fffg, ffffg, Null B)
pan to barrel ignition - vent locationy only
pan to barrel ignition - powder location in pan only
pan to barrel ignition - vent diameter (cylinder hole)
It seems logical to do
pan to barrel ignition - with powders used in the orignial "lock-only" test. I think that is the test your last sentence calls for.
Regards,
Pletch
PS - at Friendship I hope to discuss a project with Jim Chambers. He suggested a test to compare barrel ignition speeds between percussion and flint using small Silers because of interchangeability. Added to this is the possibility of a mule ear lock built on a small Siler plate, giving us 2 percussion and the flint for comparison. Too many ideas and too little time. :)
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7/8 x .45 cal. liner is drilled out to 5/64 and edge of liner is 1/64" ahead of breech plug. face of breech plug is also highly polished. 3f for main charge and 4f in the pan
Are both powders from those cans proven tpo be fast in other Flintlocks?
Reason I ask is that I got hold of a few cans of Elephant 3F one time and it was absolute junk...wouldn't even ignite fast enough in caplocks...finally poured it all out into 10ft lines on the ground and burned it off...
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7/8 x .45 cal. liner is drilled out to 5/64 and edge of liner is 1/64" ahead of breech plug. face of breech plug is also highly polished. 3f for main charge and 4f in the pan
Are both powders from those cans proven tpo be fast in other Flintlocks?
Reason I ask is that I got hold of a few cans of Elephant 3F one time and it was absolute junk...wouldn't even ignite fast enough in caplocks...finally poured it all out into 10ft lines on the ground and burned it off...
Elephant had a lot or two that they pressed too hard and made too dense and this might have been what you had though I have not heard of this before.
Dan
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I forget the lot# (cans are up in the attic) but I recall it was made in '99...a number of people ended up with that junk...it literally had identifible little pieces of wood visible it in...have seen many posts about poor quality of Elephant powder over the years...my conclusion is that there cost cutting measures probably impacted their product quality in the years immediately prior to going out of business completely.
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Wood chips in the powder- sounds like Canadian commerical grades of toilet paper sold to BC Correction centres - ;D ;D