AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Tanselman on May 02, 2024, 06:06:09 AM
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Perhaps some of you saw this well-decorated rifle at auction last week, internet only with no shipping, here in Indiana where I could drive down and pick it up. I watch smaller, out of the way auctions, since good items often go very reasonably as this one did. The rifle is initialed "J*S" and is heavily decorated for a late rifle. Stoudenour died in 1863, so this gun probably dates to the late 1850s. It has a couple "nicks and dings" and a missing forestock inlay, but for the overall quality of the gun, still a great little Bedford despite its late date. Barrel (full original length): 40-5/8" with .36 caliber bore. I really like it, so I thought others might like it, too.
The "different" style patchbox looks a lot like ones used by Charles Meissner of Muskingum County, OH, but the gun has subtle differences and is definitely a Stoudenour product. However, perhaps the gun tells us who trained the younger Meissner.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/4T20YS4/Stod-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jMzjWw3)
(https://i.ibb.co/cNYcBZn/Stod-box.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zh26jFD)
(https://i.ibb.co/sjc3dWN/Stod-finial.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hsr8JY4)
(https://i.ibb.co/KyDfPyb/Stod-rear-half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JK67Jm)
(https://i.ibb.co/CPhyHPq/Stod-side-plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xFJb7Fy)
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Great piece! I really like Stoudenour's work. When I see that patchbox, I can't help but think of the Art Deco movement.
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Nice rifle. It leans toward a Huntington feel and certainly diverges from what I think of when Stoudenour comes to mind. Nice to see.
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Perhaps some of you saw this well-decorated rifle at auction last week, internet only with no shipping, here in Indiana where I could drive down and pick it up. I watch smaller, out of the way auctions, since good items often go very reasonably as this one did. The rifle is initialed "J*S" and is heavily decorated for a late rifle. Stoudenour died in 1863, so this gun probably dates to the late 1850s. It has a couple "nicks and dings" and missing forestock inlays, but for the overall quality of the gun, still a great little Bedford despite its late date. Barrel (full original length): 40-5/8" with .36 caliber bore. I really like it, so I thought others might like it, too.
The "different" style patchbox looks a lot like ones used by Charles Meissner of Muskingum County, OH, but the gun has subtle differences and is definitely a Stoudenour product. However, perhaps the gun tells us who trained the younger Meissner.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/4T20YS4/Stod-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jMzjWw3)
(https://i.ibb.co/cNYcBZn/Stod-box.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zh26jFD)
(https://i.ibb.co/sjc3dWN/Stod-finial.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hsr8JY4)
(https://i.ibb.co/KyDfPyb/Stod-rear-half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JK67Jm)
(https://i.ibb.co/CPhyHPq/Stod-side-plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xFJb7Fy)
Hi Shelby.
Can you elaborate why you feel this rifle is definitely a Stoudenour product? Or even a Bedford, PA rifle? I see no resemblance to any Stoudenour rifle I have owned or handled.
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The rifle has Stoudenour's typical initials on the barrel, with his small 6-point star in between. The tear drop inlays have his small 6-point star engraved in the centers, as do the other smaller inlays. The side plate is absolutely his work if you look at the "sagging" front nose and upward expanding center post. The patchbox has his typical full width box hinge with three segments on the lid section. You can also see his hand in the finial engraving. Stoudenour liked to engrave "triangles" or large pointed figures using fine parallel lines in his finials, as present here below the scallops in the finial piercing where each scallop has a rearward pointing "triangle" made of fine parallel lines.
I agree the gun looks different from most of his work, and it's probably later than most, but it's a Stoudenour rifle based on many of its smaller details that show his hand... and his typical initialed signature.
Shelby Gallien
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A lot of those elements you are mentioning, are not uncommon to other Smiths. With the initials JS being the most common among gun smiths, I can’t yet ride along.
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Shelby,
First off great gun. What are the "lines" on the Butt? Can you post some larger photos of the Stock (both sides and forestock), forward the lock details? Not that my opinion matters, but I can see it as a late Stoudy.
Buck
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Buck,
I'll take a couple close-ups of the many incised lines on the stock, an odd detail, like some of the other details. Two other details that point toward Stoudenour, IMO as they like to say, are: 1) the thin, close-to-the-edge single line border around his patchbox edges and piercings, and 2) he cuts his butt's incised lines through the butt plate edge, but ONLY on the back side of the gun... which seemed to be common to Stoudenour's work. I also think the cheek shape, with its single mold line slightly angled toward the front, and the long, curving line coming off the rear of the cheek, follow his traditional patterns pretty closely. The gunmaker was well experienced, because the shaping treatment around the nose of the comb, as well as around the rear pipe, is almost relief carved and very finely done... to me the work of an older, experienced gunsmith.
I'm not an expert on PA rifles, just an enthousiast, but for those who do not think this is a late Stoudenour rifle made with more commercial parts than his earlier rifles, can you provide an alternative maker for this rifle, one with these same details and similar style J * S initials on the barrel? That's what drives me to Stoudenour. Easy to critique a somewhat "different" rifle, but hard to find another maker who fits the details and initials. When a non-standard gun pops up, I think it's better to attribute it on what details you can identify on the gun, rather than what details you can't. I'm not aware of other Bedford-area makers with the initials of J S who signed barrels like Stoudenour did, with a small 6-point start between letters, star made with long axis and short/small "x" in the middle. So if not Stoudenour, then who??????
More close-up photos of some key "artistic" details later this evening.
Shelby Gallien
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Here are additional images of the Stoudenour rifle that show more of the small details that make the gun special. These show the incised lines on the butt more clearly. The groups of incised straight lines were used in several places to decorate the rifle. You can see his small, 6-point star in the center of his diamond-shaped inlays on either side of the box's finial, as well as his "teardrop" inlays behind the side facings.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/YXkKCsZ/STD-front-half.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KDqQPvw)
(https://i.ibb.co/KjvqcGY/STD-comb-inlay.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRJ7WdN)
(https://i.ibb.co/p1W8xVM/STD-comb-nose-inlay-shaping.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x2m0D9B)
(https://i.ibb.co/0KfB9Bq/STD-finial-wrist-lines.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzbZ2ZB)
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Here are more detailed photos of the Stoudenour rifle... The areas around the nose of the comb, and the rear ramrod pipe, are lightly "cameo" carved, or slightly raised above the surface. Neat work by the gunsmith.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/txygX03/STD-butt-rear.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MGqr6z9)
(https://i.ibb.co/gg0yDNC/STD-back-forestock-and-side-plate.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nkXrD9S)
(https://i.ibb.co/6mSV44b/STD-rear-pipe-carving-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nbyZDDf)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pxcpjs3/STD-wrist-inlay-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2qv2h0m)
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Very interesting rifle and a stock profile that neat. Interesting how the comb just sorta blends into the wrist with such subtitles
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I love those funky Bedford rifles. Thanks for sharing. Let me know if you'd like to have this one added to the library.
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Shelby,
It's a very interesting piece. The horizontal incised lines give it a "stepped" appearance, a technique employed by both Stoudenour and Border. IMHO the brass inlays cheek side are a later addition but I like it.
Buck
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My Ohio rifle by Elijah Howe dated 1845 has the nearly identical patch box
(https://i.ibb.co/b1YR5Jz/IMG-4505.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y2JTBZp)
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Shelby, That rifle has a lot to like!
And I tend to agree with Buck re the brass cheek side inlays.
John