AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Steeltrap on May 13, 2024, 01:05:23 AM
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Brand new GM 45 cal barrel. Using Hornady .490RB and .018 pillow ticking, Trappers Mink oil for lube.
Now, I cut this barrel and re-crowned it. Today I shot it for the first time and could not get any consistent groupings (50gr Swiss FF).
So....I'm thinking:
Facts:
---Patches were\could have been to dry as I lubed them last year then stored in a sealed plastic bag.
---RB is "hard" to start with short starter. I have to whack it pretty hard to get it into barrel.
---When I got home I loaded three PRB and pulled them back out. All three had the patches cut from loading.
What to do?:
---I took some 340gr paper and "thumb sanded" the muzzle. It's nice and smooth but I loaded another with the patch freshly lubed and the patch stilll cut. (Initial load still needed a substantial whack with using a short starter)
---Go with thinner patch. Maybe .015 or even .010?
I feel pretty certain the reason for the bad grouping is the patch is cut when loaded.
Any input or idea would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Joe Woods coning tool.
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Well if you’re trying to put a .490 round ball in a .45 cal. Barrel it should cut the patch.
Hungry Horse
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Not necessarily - LOL, depends on the crown. Well, I do suspect a .490 would cut.
With a .440" ball and .018" patch, there is no reason to be cutting the patches when lubed with water,spit or anything, if the
crown is nicely radiused and smooth.
A .445" or even a .450" ball will load in that bore size, with that patch - IF the balls are Plumber's lead or softer. I would think even a 40:1
lead to tin should load as well.
I've still a bunch of .690's that I load in my .69 with a .021" patch.
The smaller the bore size the easier they are to load.
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Did you find any of the patches? A blown patch could be for any number of things not necessarily the crown,
I have seen the ball starter be a problem. Cutting the ball before driven into the barrel. Also, many rifles are powder sensitive. I shoot 65 grain of 2F Swiss in my Green MT barrel, which shot well, but the new Goex 75 grains 3F was GREAT!
Michael
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You said you lubed patches last year. Depending on the lube, the patches might not be as strong as they should be. I load .440 and .018 patches in both an old Sharon and a Colerain barrel and have never cut/torn a patch. You could try some 7oz denim(.015) very tough material. Double check your crown for any edges witch may be cutting patch. Also try some new patching.
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I would expect a .490 ball in a .450 bore to be extremely hard to start and to cut patches. Situation normal.
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Post one number wrong and get "payback" :-\
Yeah.....It's Hornady .440 RB's. I used Trappers Mink for lube.
I'd post a pic of the muzzle but I doubt that would help. Muzzle looks great and it's tough to run your finger inside a picture.
I'll spend a little more time with fine sandpaper smoothing the muzzle and see how that goes.
"Old patches" could also be the culprit. I have some dry one's that I'll lube up and see how that goes.
Thank you for all responses!!
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MJB is right, check the shot patches to see what's going on then proceed from there.
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Brand new barrel, run scotchbrite or steel wool through it on a jag a couple dozen times. If you use an undersized jag you can get scotchbrite through without tearing it. Or use patches with valve grinding compound rubbed into them.
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Hi,
I just got to ask, is that .490 a typo ??
DGB
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OOPS, Missed the .440 correction.
DGB
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Ok. I lapped the muzzle a bit more, then ran a patch several times with a bore past to knock out any over-sharp areas.
I cleaned it up and “loaded” three mor RB’s (this time I use 62 cal 😁 ) and no patch cuts. Also, the initial load went in easier. (Or I suddenly got stronger)
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The left hand muzzle is a GM .45 barrel. My normal load in this barrel is a .445" ball and 10 ounce denim (.0225 at that time) or the .0235" Mattress Ticking we used to get.
75gr. 3F or 85gr. 2F GOEX with a slippery lube. 2,240fps chronographed. A water based lube would shoot with as little as 65gr. 3F.
(https://i.ibb.co/VpZnFKp/Crowns45and58001-zps2a7b2e16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x809n48)
The right hand muzzle is a .577 Musketoon barrel that actually measured .574" land to land.
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If you have a CO2 discharger, you can load your ball and patch (no powder please) ram it down the barrel leaving an inch of space above the breech.
Discharge the ball into a box with rags or plastic bags. You can see when you retrieve the ball and the patch if there is any cutting. If it cuts without a powder charge it will definitely, do it with a powder charge. This saves both powder and balls.
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And if you don't have a discharger , I take a 6 inch piece of 3\8 brass rod, oil the bore, slides the rod in the bore and load the patched ball in about 6 inches. Then upend the barrel and the rod will slide down and push the ball out.
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Try some pocket drill for patching, really tough stuff.
If you have a sharp place in your bore, it will show up under close inspection, use a needle file to lightly remove it and resmooth the crown evenly all the way around.
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Sorry - I glossed over the old lubed patches. They are garbage. The only ones I've known to hold up, were some 12 ounce (.030") I had lubed up with Neetsfoot Oil
and were over a year old. They still loaded and shot well, but I was only using a very weak, low pressure 82gr. powder charge in the .69.
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I'm going to put the primary blame on the old patches. But I did re-do the muzzle with 340grit and did some strokes with bore paste.
I usually use my air compressor to blow out any un-shot projectile. I remove the vent liner, dump the powder out and blow out the projectile. I know there is a safety issue using an air compressor, but the projectile is "aimed" at a plastic garbage can with a concrete wall behind it.
With the old patches the air compressor wouldn't blow out the projectile. I had to use a ball puller. I haven't tried it with the new one's so I'll test and let you know.
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So...once I start thinking about it I had to go test it. I loaded up this PRB to about 1" of the breech, then using my air compressor I blew it out.....caught it in a box with paper stuff. No patch cutting. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/FRtY9NGl.jpg)
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After you 340 grit, use 600 and then crocus cloth and make it like a mirror. I go back and forth with the thumb 5 times then rotate the barrel 1/4 turn, 5 times rotate, etc. I then use Pocket drill cloth as I haven't seen good ticking in a long time. With a .490 and Jo'anns Pocket Drill and bear oil I dont even need a short starter and the rifle will shoot under 2 inches at 50 yards when I aim it right.
Bob
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Had a chance to get back out and shoot some. Since my .45-.50 patches are no good I used my .54 cal patches.
I was shooting with the rifle front rested, but I was shouldering the buttstock. With 60gr FF Swiss I got a 3 shot group of 2.5” at 25 yds. Then a 2”, two shot group using 65gr FF. (I started out shooting 50gr FF Swiss and got unimpressive results)
THE .54 patch size is somewhat “sloppy” to deal with. But I wanted to shoot it. The groups were not that impressive. I gathered about 8 patches. All burned well with only one having a cut in it.
So, the next outing I will have a rest that’s solid on both front & rear. I will also have “right size” patches and will expanded the powder load a bit more.
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A ball put into the muzzle on a long strip of patching material should look like the ball in Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook as to marks on the ball.
(https://i.ibb.co/LNNrBvr/Ball-and-patch-fit.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3RRvVkv)
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Ok. Well that makes sense as if the "fitting" was to lose there would be blow by in the groves.
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Since I like to thumb start my patched ball, I get blow by with 2 of my rifles. A small wad filler of jute or my favorite kapok before the patched ball eliminate the blow by and accuracy doesn't seem to be effected.
Randy aka bpd303
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Went to the range today with front and rear range bags. Shot several shots using Hornady .440RB and .018 lubed PT. I shot 60gr FF and 65gr FF. The first pic is 60gr FF.
I then went to a thinner patch of .015PT and dropped the powder to 50gr. That's the second pic.
I'm now using new, proper caliber size PT patches. I have more shooting to do before I settle on the load, but right now the .015 patch with 50gr appears promising.
I may try .045RB as well. That will depend upon if I can tighten up the groups with the .440RB or not. I hate to buy a box of .445 and watch them collect dust.
(https://i.imgur.com/IyEXgzvl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/EosI57il.jpg)
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Let's see .018" spit patch .445 ball and 65 to 70gr. 3F at 50 yards.
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I have found 25 yards is only useful for roughing in sights.
For great accuracy at 50 yards, takes a tighter load and more powder.
Of course this all depends on what you want or demand from the rifle.
Some guys are happy with just hitting the target as they never compete.
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Thanks Daryl. I have to make an order so I’ll add some .445’s.
My expectations are to have this rifle shooting at least as well as my 54 cal Leman. Here's a pic of my 54 cal at 100 yards, off a bench of course:
(https://i.imgur.com/M5FJlNRl.jpg)
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Target visibility is very important concerning grouping ability at longer ranges.
Its important at all ranges not-so the longer the range.
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I went to the range today with my supply of 3F GOEX. I've had a pound of this for a few years when I tried it in my 50cal pistol. My pistol prefers 2F. (Go figure)
So, the first pic is 60gr, then 65gr, and the final was 70gr. I only shot 2 with the 70gr as that's all time permitted today. I used Ballistol for a wet lube and used only .018PT. These results were much better than previous outings.
I set up the target at 50 yards this time as I just figured I'd see how well 3F would do. It proved much better.
My initial thoughts are 65gr may be the right load. This is a youth rifle and I had cut the barrel length to 30". So, unlike a "normal" BP rifle, this one doesn't have the additional length to burn more powder.
(https://i.imgur.com/JKowyALl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wJlzKRbl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/236iT1xl.jpg)