AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Pro Libertate on June 16, 2024, 05:16:01 PM
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Excited to have what I believe to be a William Beck Hawken-style rifle in my hot little hands! I estimate this fine example to have been built sometime in the mid 1800’s. It’s a .45 caliber.
This was a Gun’s International purchase. I’ll take more photos of it when it arrives and will include them here.
William was the grandnephew of John Phillip Beck, a master gunsmith in Lebanon, PA. A rifle built by J. P. Beck was presented to President George Washington, and is currently exhibited in the Frazier Museum in Kentucky.
(https://i.ibb.co/d2QfS70/IMG-1534.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G2VdXFv)
(https://i.ibb.co/qW3fmXq/IMG-1535.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KLpkVR4)
(https://i.ibb.co/BGzzbHd/IMG-1536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C611gpN)
(https://i.ibb.co/p0H3C1d/IMG-1537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FxQBGhz)
(https://i.ibb.co/9rqrgXY/IMG-1538.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S3K3yTv)
(https://i.ibb.co/b2t7cFP/IMG-1539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRqnYQx)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZtsmy7/IMG-1485.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wNYZ0q9)
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That's a good looking rifle. Nice find
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Good looking rifle and better workmanship and style than a Hawken.Looks more like New York than St.Louis.
Bob Roller
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Wow that's a shooter!
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The stock has survived in superb condition, with all crisp, unworn and undinged edges on cheek, side facings, etc. There's even no wood loss/burn around the percussion snail. If I didn't see the old barrel, I'd think this was a very fine modern-made rifle. I'd like to see a picture of the barrel's muzzle and rifling on this one.
Shelby Gallien
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Wow that's a shooter!
I can only hope! The barrel has very light rust and pitting but the rifling’s strong.
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That's a good looking rifle. Nice find
Thanks! I recently connected with contemporary rifle builder John Beck (one of William’s distant relatives) and I’ve since become very intrigued by the Beck family history.
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I agree with Bob Roller on this one. I see a rifle from the Eastern seaboard, ie: New York, Ohio, etc., even South Western Ontario or Upper Canada as it was called in the day, rather than a Hawken rifle. One has to be careful not to lump half stocked percussion rifles into the Hawken clique. This rifle stands up fine all by itself and does not benefit from being compared to a Hawken rifle...just my opinions.
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I thought Hawken rifles were highly regarded?
You’ll have to forgive my ignorance here… I’m a new collector and relatively new to muzzleloading in general. It simply appears to me to have the same lines and design elements as those rifles that Samuel Hawken pioneered: the buckhorn rear sights, iron scroll trigger guard, oval barrel key escutcheon, and beavertail cheekpiece are all classic Hawken features, are they not?
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The stock has survived in superb condition, with all crisp, unworn and undinged edges on cheek, side facings, etc. There's even no wood loss/burn around the percussion snail. If I didn't see the old barrel, I'd think this was a very fine modern-made rifle. I'd like to see a picture of the barrel's muzzle and rifling on this one.
Shelby Gallien
This is currently the only picture I have of the muzzle. I’ll take some pictures of the rifling when I have time. I have a camera I can put down the bore.
(https://i.ibb.co/gtSKQ80/IMG-1608.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2cv4Rrz)
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All I'm saying is that this rifle more closely emulates features of east coast rifles from the percussion era than it does Hawken rifles. Those who know me know that I am a huge fan of anything Hawken...I've built around 200 of them myself. But your rifle, as Bob Roller has pointed out, has finer architecture fit and finish than most Hawken rifle did. A Lexis is just like a Lada, except for a few minor features.
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I’d be really interested in seeing some of examples of the rifles with which you speak— those that you feel it more closely resembles. I’d also be curious to know if they pre-date Hawken’s rifles or if they may have been influenced by his work.
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Americans from all over the country made half-stock rifles. If I saw that rifle with no name, my first thought would be that it came out of the northeast or Wisconsin or Michigan. The English and other European gunmakers were also making half-stocks even earlier. Half-stocks in the U.S. seem to gain popularity after the U.S. Model 1803, but still weren't really all that common until the 1840s.
Here is a New York one from Jon Zettler of New York City:
(https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/48/231.jpg)
The Hawken is a pretty specific style generally, and reproduction companies copied the name because they were popular. There were some reproductions that were much more like an actual Hawken than the more mainstream T/C guns.
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Thanks for chiming in, Seth. Can you please help me understand precisely what features distinguish a Hawken rifle? Is using the term “Hawken-style” a misnomer?
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There's really nothing wrong with throwing the term 'hawken style' out there in relation to this rifle, because *most* people would immediately know the reference and envision the rifle you have, or something like it - a mid century percussion half stock. You, however, happened to post this on a message board that has for years been something of the pinnacle when it comes to discussion of historical flint and percussion arms, and we're all nitpickers here, so the terminology is being nitpicked! I'm being jokey btw, I think everyone here recognizes that you've got a great piece in spectacular condition and despite being nitpicky, we all know what you mean. And yeah, it does look much more refined and like an eastern halfstock than a 'Hawken' or other rifle made for the western trade, but regardless, it's a really nice piece and I'm jealous. If the bore is rough, I'd get it freshed out and shoot it one way or the other. That's a hunting rifle begging to get back in action.
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I genuinely appreciate being corrected; my goal here is to learn. Coming from the Muzzleloading Forum, where there's a lot of immature behavior and posturing by self-proclaimed experts who constantly disagree, I find the ALF to be a refreshing change.
I do intend to shoot the rifle in moderation for as long as it is safe to do so and do endeavor to be a good caretaker of it.
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There were a few varieties of Hawken rifles.
Here is the typical form people are talking about when they think of a Hawken rifle, a fairly stout half-stock percussion rifle around .54 caliber:
(https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/86/1059.jpg)
There are also full-stock Hawkens:
(https://images.ctfassets.net/pujs1b1v0165/3aAJ2QqiI0FPoy2xcEnrm6/9f07efb1c1664cc4733c4d242412d26a/left_side_hawken_rifle.jpeg?fm=webp&w=900)
And there are the more eastern styled Hawkens:
(https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/81/3290.jpg)
Some notable differences in your rifle include the more complicated manner in which the lock is inlet, the spurred trigger guard, and the general proportions.
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I genuinely appreciate being corrected; my goal here is to learn. Coming from the Muzzleloading Forum, where there's a lot of immature behavior and posturing by self-proclaimed experts who constantly disagree, I find the ALF to be a refreshing change.
I do intend to shoot the rifle in moderation for as long as it is safe to do so and do endeavor to be a good caretaker of it.
Check it with a rod to see if it's loaded.A lot of these old ones are loaded and I have found them in antique shops that were.
Bob Roller
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Certainly! Always a good idea, Bob. I’ll be giving it a thorough inspection and rigorous cleaning prior to any firing.
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Now that I've shot my mouth off, I feel obligated to answer some of your questions, though because of the complexity of the subject, this site is not the place for such detail. Forgive me if I have come across as one of those from a different forum who has to have the last word and is negative about everything. That is not my wish or goal.
You are correct that your rifle has many features that are similar to rifles from the Hawken shop and I can see how one might draw comparisons. It has been suggested by some students, collectors, and builders, that Hawekn rifles borrow heavily from English sporting rifle tradition, ie: scroll shotgun style trigger guard, captured double barrel slides, escutcheons around the keys, patent hooked standing breech tang and plug, percussion snail bolster and nipple seat, sheet metal under-rib and rod thimbles, beavertail cheek piece, and so on.
But generally, Hawken rifles have heavier barrels and larger calibre, sheet iron or cast nose piece, plain maple stock wood, two captured barrel slides with iron escutcheon plates, gentle purch belly to the underside of the buttstock, simple scroll trigger guard, less definition around the lock panel, iron lock bolt escutcheon, entirely different percussion lock plate, deep crescent iron butt plate with less of a heel extension.
Hawken rifles and your fine piece, are almost contemporary. I suggest though, that your rifle antedates the Hawken mountain rifle, and I feel that Mr. Beck, the maker, did not draw heavily if at all from the Hawken design. Percussion half stocked rifles of the middle of the 19th C, in North America, I believe were far more influenced by English and even Continental firearms, many of which were being imported and sold in gun shops and hardware stores across the continent, in competition with the hundreds of American gunsmiths who were turning them out by the thousands.
I and many others who frequent this site, have invested a lot of money and time in order to study particular styles, and get it right when we replicate or re-create these interesting firearms. So as Eric has so acutely and gently has said, it is just an old geezer nit-picking when someone throws out a catch-all phrase such as "Hawken styled" to describe your wonderful rifle. Thank you for posting pictures of it.
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Thank you for your detailed response, Mr. Sapergia. I appreciate your insights and the effort to address my questions despite the complexity of the subject. I was not offended in the least by your earlier remarks; my whole point in joining the forum was to acquire knowledge.
Your point about my rifle postdating the Hawken mountain rifle and being influenced more by English and Continental firearms is well taken. It’s clear that there was a wide variety of influences on firearm designs in North America during the 19th century.
I appreciate the dedication and investment that you and others have put into studying and replicating these styles accurately. Eric’s point about the use of the term “Hawken styled” being a bit broad is duly noted, and I won’t be so quick to throw around the term in the future. Thanks again for your thoughtful analysis and for acknowledging my rifle’s qualities.
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PL: I used the word antedate rather than predate to describe your rifle, meaning your rifle was almost certainly built after the heyday of the Hawken rifle, actually closer to the cartridge era. At least that is the impression I get, judging by the use of that style of lockplate and the curvature of the buttplate in addition to the use of the cast trigger guard. But it is possible too that there may have been some overlap of time, since Hawken rifles were produced for a considerable length of time.
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Antedate is a synonym for predate. "Ante" meaning "before" as in the term "antebellum" meaning "before the war," so in this instance Taylor is meaning to say your rifle postdate's the Hawken rifle which I would definitely agree with.
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Thanks for the clarification. The English language can be rather confusing, can’t it? In any case, I understand what was intended; I just misspoke. Considering William Beck was born in 1817 and the first Hawken rifle appeared around 1823, it’s highly unlikely he was making rifles (at least of this quality) at six years old. ;)
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Antedate is a synonym for predate. "Ante" meaning "before" as in the term "antebellum" meaning "before the war," so in this instance Taylor is meaning to say your rifle postdate's the Hawken rifle which I would definitely agree with.
Seth, you are quite right, and I was the one confused. Thanks for the clarification.
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More photos of the William Beck rifle for your viewing pleasure!
I finally have the rifle in hand, and it’s everything I could have hoped for. The only issues are the barrel wedge escutcheon on the left hand side of the rifle had detached and a couple of the nipple threads going into the drum/bolster are boogered. I’d like to shoot the rifle, but I’m not so sure that’s a good idea in its current state, and I’m reluctant to drill and tap for a larger nipple for obvious reasons. I’ve considered repairing the escutcheon, but I’ve also contemplated simply leaving it alone. What are your thoughts?
(https://i.ibb.co/cFZD1J5/IMG-1826.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZQqtLD)
(https://i.ibb.co/TTzLVT0/IMG-1839.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wLDs9LQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/52hjjzw/IMG-1834.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M9k11jQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/LN8NBHc/IMG-1827.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rj9jtds)
(https://i.ibb.co/RCXptR7/IMG-1828.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cnj54RW)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YLQQgK/IMG-1829.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsXZZh0)
(https://i.ibb.co/4RDPStd/IMG-1830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3m8BFdz)
(https://i.ibb.co/VWC7LF7/IMG-1831.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TB0VwQV)
(https://i.ibb.co/MRqv3Yp/IMG-1840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hKp6tPH)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpd98Z8/IMG-1841.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYKs2H2)
(https://i.ibb.co/xDM140X/IMG-1833.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f2Ckc5q)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMDpXG4/IMG-1805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/09jtNBq)
(https://i.ibb.co/R0q0vJt/IMG-1816.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wWfW028)
(https://i.ibb.co/7VfF8Km/IMG-1810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCk134m)
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You could very easily CA r epoxy that plate back on. Appears to be a very nicely made re-stock.
I would suggest the nipple threads need "repair" or redoing to larger size. The next size up in a metric
might be less of a job than a total drill and re-tap to a larger standard size.
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The stock looks so perfect and unblemished, could it be a restock of period parts? Was that escutcheon plate glued in?
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Karl, I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe refinished ? I don't recall seeing the inside of a lock mortise look that good before. I don't mean to offend just wondering. Still a nice piece. Jim
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My initial thoughts when I seen this for sale was “restock” due to how clean it appeared. However notice the darkening of the wood around the patch box, that’s evidence of increased oxidation, you only see on originals.
I have almost a clone made by his older brother Samuel in Indianna. And if I was a betting man, if I scraped the stock of finish on mine it would look very similar, “although the gun I have has had a hard life for sure.”
There are guns from the golden age that come up occasionally in this level of condition, though it’s highly rare and best error on the side caution. I think it easily could have been cleaned/restored, as that was the common practice not too long ago.
Gun would have to be observed in person for a determination, seeing the barrel channel and behind the butplate would help, if it was refinished you’d likely see.
Regardless it’s a beautiful example.
(https://i.ibb.co/PT7gxMK/IMG-8884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7gwKvQP)
(https://i.ibb.co/KX8Tggy/IMG-8883.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MsJFHHN)
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The stock looks so perfect and unblemished, could it be a restock of period parts? Was that escutcheon plate glued in?
The escutcheon was glued in. It sure looks like hide glue to me; it has that transparent amber hue.
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Photos of the barrel channel:
(https://i.ibb.co/b3hpbNJ/IMG-1865.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mBsQNh8)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jz5ZqRz/IMG-1866.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fC4J9YC)
(https://i.ibb.co/1bnJLx9/IMG-1868.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TrTqk5H)
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It looks like a restock or maybe the whole gun is new. Looks too good to be true
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At first I thought this rifle to be refinished, but after seeing the interior of the capbox and the barrel channel, I believe it is a restock. Having said that, whoever restocked it was second to none. Both in workmanship and in maintaining the original style and proportions, it is about as good as I have seen, and I have seen and handled a lot.
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Thanks for chiming in. My personal feeling is that it was simply refinished. I think the use of hide glue on the pewter nose cap and escutcheons, the heavy soiling inside the barrel lug slot, and the aforementioned oxidation around the metal allude to the relative age of the stock.
I’d love to get it into the discerning hands of an expert. At the very least, I’d like to find someone with another W. Beck rifle with which to compare its construction.
(https://i.ibb.co/kBk0FSc/IMG-1866.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0TMJwy)
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As nice as it is, I believe the patch box was done with hand tools. There’s evidence of chisel marks.
(https://i.ibb.co/R97Z7cH/IMG-1877.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HVX1Xqg)
(https://i.ibb.co/RNm7fGg/IMG-1873.jpg) (https://ibb.co/42GJzwF)
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Track sells over size nipples and taps in .005" increments. Depending on your nipple thread, that might be your best option for repair. Keep on mind - you cannot go directly to .015" as an example. You need to work up in .005" increments.
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That's a nice looking rifle, and will likely make a fine shooter.
As for original or not, I would think a restock.
I say this mainly due to the use of glue only for the inlays, and no holes for pins, screws or nails.
As for the use of glue, I've never seen nose caps/inlays or anything simply originally glued in place on these old guns.
I have seen loose inlays glued in, but those originally had small nails, pins or screws to hold them in place.
This gunstock has no old holes for pins, screws or nails, and makes me doubt its originality.
Just my thoughts and others may have a varying opinion,
John
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very observant, John. Give me a couple years I would of seen it also. Jim
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I’ll play devils advocate. Never say never, I’ve seen plenty of NY target guns and Ohio half stocks with no pins or screws in the inlays…. When did that become a thing and why? No idea.
The excessive age and grime in the barrel lug holes makes me think the stock was extensively cleaned and refinished and they missed this area. I’d be curious to see behind the butplate because there is less chance that would have been cleaned.
Check out this original for example while a different style, check out the inlays:
(https://i.ibb.co/w0VtJt7/IMG-8898.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HF6ZNZC)
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Thanks for your assessment, John. Here’s a number of other photos I took to help piece the puzzle together. I find it quite odd that virtually all the screws have a substantial amount of rust on their threads. Seems strange to me that someone would take the trouble to refinish the stock and not wire brush the hardware.
(https://i.ibb.co/SQ6bzPq/IMG-1881.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VHLRstX)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wt2FFp3/IMG-1882.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q5r99Fn)
(https://i.ibb.co/gJMpvVD/IMG-1883.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7KJ5g4G)
(https://i.ibb.co/S3KS1hs/IMG-1884.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2kjJLDn)
(https://i.ibb.co/br898nj/IMG-1885.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2jf4fB0)
(https://i.ibb.co/3zHqq66/IMG-1886.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6L44ww)
(https://i.ibb.co/D8T8Sw3/IMG-1887.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GtNtbCg)
(https://i.ibb.co/KFHWS9x/IMG-1888.jpg) (https://ibb.co/72FKLGt)
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JD, are you sure there's no pins?
I have a New York target rifle with silver pins in the inlay, and they are next to impossible to see now.
Also, so are you supposing the inlays are glued in with Hide Glue?
A quick search says the Hide glue is water soluble. So, rifle, in the rain, inlays fall out, nose cap falls off?
Now, I can be wrong just as easy as anyone.... :o
John
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I don’t profess to be an expert, but I do know that not all rifles of that time period used pins to hold on the escutcheons or nose cap.
This is just one of numerous examples: https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/158172-half-stock-percussion-target-rifle-al5785.html
(https://i.ibb.co/CMpcRdB/IMG-1897.png) (https://ibb.co/8dnC13M)
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Ok, You guys will have to help me through this. I'm not sure if this applies to other inlays. I've have never seen it on anything but patch box side plates. The side plates that used to be next to the patch box on this rifle I'm posting, were not pinned in. The wood was cut out at an angle ane they slid into place with the edges of the wood holding them in. At least it did for a time. I hope I'm explaining this clearly . The inlays on the op,s rifle don't apeer to be attached this way . I've never really studied the later rifles . So I don't know. It seems like glue would not be very permanment for a tool such as this.. I'm thinking out loud after a couple of scotches. Jim
(https://i.ibb.co/V3Nky9r/IMG-2347.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yVRxTPG)
(https://i.ibb.co/17zNfyz/IMG-2348.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5mTgbm)
(https://i.ibb.co/RPs9fGH/IMG-2349.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k0wxjVc)
(https://i.ibb.co/17vsFSV/IMG-2350.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JmBxDhL)
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Ok, You guys will have to help me through this. I'm not sure if this applies to other inlays. I've have never seen it on anything but patch box side plates. The side plates that used to be next to the patch box on this rifle were not pinned in. The wood was cut out at an angle ane they slid into place with the edges of the wood holding them in. At least it did for a time. I hope I'm explaining this clearly . I'm thinking out loud after a couple of scotches. Jim
Now that’s cool right there!
JTR they could be pinned, they just don’t appear to be pinned. So I cannot say for certain. I do find it unlikely hide glue would be used for something like this, it’s an interesting discussion, and maybe someone on here knows? They certainly had water proof glues at this period of which I have several recipes typically involving resins like copal or shellac.
I have observed several that don’t seem to be pinned, but they could peen the silver over and polish it to hide the fact? Tight inlay, and wood swelling? A combination?
Discussion leads to learning for sure…
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I’m grateful for the discourse, guys. I haven’t been fortunate enough to handle a great deal of these period firearms first-hand, so I’m relying heavily on examples I’ve seen online. A Google search of “W. Beck rifles” and subsequent scouring of the results only turned up a single rifle that had been sold on an auction site, so it’s not as though we’ve got a lot of examples to compare this rifle to. We know that his son (W.G. Beck) was also involved in the business, but I’m not sure to what extent. Was he also a gunsmith, or was he involved in more of the administrative aspects of things? If he was a gunsmith, it’s plausible that he could’ve been tasked with restocking the rifle or even with its construction. Unfortunately, a lot of this is lost to history, and we may never know the answer.
In the 1800s, hide glue was indeed commonly used, but there were other options for water-resistant adhesives as well. Casein glue, made from milk protein, was known for its water resistance and was used during that era. As John Beck alluded to, natural resins and pitch were also utilized for their adhesive properties and water resistance.