AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: teakmtn on June 30, 2024, 11:28:17 PM
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Gentlemen, I finally was able to score a pretty good deer tag. Unfortunately it's in California where there is a lead ban in place. It's during the general rifle/any weapon season but I have an area that should not be too many folks. I should have my new Henry Scroll Guard by then in 58 Caliber. My question is what non-lead round ball should I consider, for accuracy and deformation. With 58 Cal, that last should not be a consideration I'm guessing. Also, what powder load range to start out with as I develop a load?
Thanks in advance,
Doug T.
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I suggest you google ITX in Cal. and see if they make a .562" ball for you. That would be about perfect for a .58 and allow a decent patch
lubed with mink oil, Neetsfoot oil or some other concoction.
For deer, use the most accurate load. It might be 75gr. of 2F or 130gr. 2F.
You need to find some non-lead balls and find a load for them.
Good luck.
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What would happen if you just went ahead and used the lead balls?
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If checked, a charge PLUS likely lose his rifle. That is what would happen here, if the laws were the same.
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Just spit balling here I wonder how tin would work. The challenge with a muzzleloader is that wardens can’t just look at the cartridge box, so they could be suspicious of anything home-cast.
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I was wondering about tin or pewter as well. I have bought 562 ( 9\16) brass round balls but that won't " fly" I suppose.
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Last I knew, CA required "certification" that ammunition was lead free (well, <1% lead), and that certification had only been granted to commercial firms.
Casting with any of the alternate materials available requires changes in casting temps/techniques and in expectations. Tin was particularly problematic: I had trouble getting consistent weights with all the alternates I tried (though further refinement in casting techniques might have reduced or resolved this), but tin was the worst. The lead-free metal offered by Rotometals (an alloy of bismuth/tin/antimony IIRC) required casting at lower temps (<500 degrees), paying particular attention to mould temperature, and longer waits before cutting the sprue. At longer ranges I suspect the velocity loss is going to be a significant factor.
Performance-wise, all alternates were harder and less-dense than lead. As a consequence, they all shot lower and lost velocity faster than lead. No obturation was noted: balls shot into a snowbank and recovered in spring mic'd the same as when fired.
I tested several alternates while doing some control shooting of feral hogs and whitetail deer. My test gun was my .50 cal GRRW Leman. Tin showed some deformation but minimal expansion when bone was struck. Rotometals' offering basically disintegrated when major bone was struck. Both performed adequately (no game was lost) but I hunt close: out of a dozen animals, none were taken past 25 yards.
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what if ya carried a bag full of what ever they require, but had just one lead ball in the gun? If ya saw someone coming just fire it and say ya missed what ever critter yer hunting.
I know it sound deceitful, but when yer dealing with certain folks ya might have to be.
Just my opinion.
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Recommending people violate the law, even if you disagree with the law, is generally not a good idea, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thread gets locked because of it. Why don't we stick to recommendations that allows teakmtn to legally hunt. This is after all what he requested.
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There's no excuse for not following the statutes. The changes might be a pain in the posterior, but they are doable. The certification process looks like it is now available for private individuals and can be done online; no fee was listed for certification. Might take 30 minutes to fill out the form if you don't speak bureaucrat.
Rotometals' lead-free alloy is ~$15/lb; that would yield 25-30 .562 round balls. A Lee mould for the .562 ball will run about $45 delivered, so a DIY approach would cost about $1/each for the first hundred, and $.60/each for subsequent balls. Expensive (compared to lead) but comparable (or less than) many jacketed bullets.
As for buying the lead-free balls, I couldn't find a commercial source for .562 balls. If available, I'd expect them to sell somewhere in the range of $1.50-$2/each.
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I'd consider a lead free bullet if I had to use lead free, at least then you can get back to the roundball sectional density and get some weight back......
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Have you considered trying to cast copper? It is lighter than lead but will deform. Several unmentionable manufacturers offer copper solids for large game. You may get a little better muzzle velocity but lose it faster down range. You may also find that they shoot a little high with the same powder charge.
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https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/brass/0-5625-brass-ball-260-grade-200-pack-of-20/pid/20418 (?)
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https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/brass/0-5625-brass-ball-260-grade-200-pack-of-20/pid/20418 (?)
I actually just purchased a bunch of these a few weeks ago from this exact seller. I plan to use them for a ball mill, not ammunition, but it's a funny coincidence.
Grabbed the calipers and measured 10 of them. Every single one was .5620-.5625 in every direction I checked. That's pretty darned consistent.
(https://i.ibb.co/d5dtRrd/9-16-Brass-Balls.png) (https://ibb.co/TgV1skV)
Don't have a .58 to test fire them though.
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Sorry guys, I apologize for ever asking the question regarding the law. It was not my intent to open that can of worms.
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ITX lead free roundball IS certified by California DFG. We made sure that happened back in 2009.
I don't think they make .58 cal though.
Try molding your own 80% Bismuth and 20 % tin. It is also certified by CA DFG by Rotometals.
That works too.
Ken
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Thank you for all the input. Unfortunately ITX does not come in 58 Caliber. That would have been the easy choice. Maybe the solid brass round balls, but it looks like I'm going to have to get myself set up to mold my own utilizing the Rotometals offerings. I have only done campfire running balls with a primitive ladle and mold. I'll go with the advised .562. Thanks again everyone for your advice.
Doug T.
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THERE YOU GO---LEAD BALL WILL PASS THROUGH SO WHATS IN YOUR BAG/NONLEAD-ECT WILL WORK.. JUST CHECK ACCURACY
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For what it is worth...
On another muzzleloading forum, a member there tried the solid brass balls with a good patch in a side lock muzzleloader and shot whitetail deer with the load, as I recall it was a complete side to side pass through and a dead deer. Whether or not they are legal to use in California I have no idea.
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I would suspect a brass ball will have the same accuracy challenges that ITX has. Engaging the rifling is relegated to whatever patch you use and that is the rub.
Back in 2009 when I was testing 80/20 bismuth/tin alloy I found it did pretty well. And I could cast it like lead. The trick is to get just enough tin in there to keep the bismuth together. Bismuth is brittle without a significant amount of tin added. The other deal with bismuth is it EXPANDS when it cools. So the finished roundball will be slightly larger than a lead roundball coming out of the same mold.
Lead is a very unique element and rather hard to duplicate. Unless you used soft gold maybe. That might actually be perfect. LOL.
Ken
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260 brass alloy balls would qualify. But no certification. Even though it’s a accepted commercial alloy. Standardized at less than .07 percent lead. A fellow by the handle of Round ball experimented with these and glass marbles. And hunted with the brass balls successfully. I’m sure his threads can be searched on the other muzzloading forum. I followed the threads because of the possibility of lead bans. BJH
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I know it was not difficult to have it certified as a CA approved non-lead projectile. If I recall correctly was simply a matter of filling out a form and sending it in.
K
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I’ve seen where some people coat bullets with powder coat paint and bake them. They can add up to a few thousands of an inch to the diameter. They buy the powder from Harbor freight and bake them in a toaster oven. A few coats of paint may provide something for the patch to “grab” onto. Might be worth a try.
I also wondered if one could mix some of the new #9 or smaller super heavy shot like that found in turkey loads, into some tin and melt that and mold it. The right mix could be a similar weight to a lead ball. I assume the melted mix would have to be stirred every time before pouring into the mold. It may also be possible to fill the mold with the shot, and then pour in the tin to hold it all together. Molten tin fills spaces vey well. Larger size shot might be better in that case to allow the tin to flow.
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The solution to this conundrum is simple. Smaller ball, heavier patch. Recently I used a .530 ball, double patched with .024 canvas in a 58caliber Rice barrel. I was shooting at an 8 inch gong at fifty yards. Hit center.
Granted this was only one shot. There was no experimentation no change in powder charge. Another fellow had to do the same thing with a .50 cal rifle using .440 balls he used four .015 patches to make up the difference. He also hit center.
This I know works with hard balls made with wheel weights. Smaller balls heavy patching. The ball patch combination has to be tight, but it cannot cut the patching.
The only problem I see with the ITX balls is that they are expensive. So, experimentation will cost you.
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Thank you for all the input. Unfortunately ITX does not come in 58 Caliber.
Could you take some ITX balls, melt them down and cast the size you need?
Tim
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ITX roundballs are made with a sintering process, where powdered metal (tungsten and iron) is combined with a malleable resin like substance, and heat injection molded. They are generally softer than barrel steel but very much harder than lead. The small shot version of the product can be crushed easily with a pair of pliers but not the larger roundball version.
Another important thing to consider is you cannot use a standard ball puller should you dry ball. You have to unbreech the barrel and push it out with a rod, OR use a c02 discharger.
Ken
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If you have a caliber that is not one of the 4 sizes that ITX offers, The best solution is to use your existing ball mold, using bismuth and tin alloy. Bismuth is quite dense like lead, and tin helps hold it together. It's malleable and will perform very similar to lead. the best % of bismuth and tin I found in my testing back in 2009, was 80% bismuth, and 20% tin. Any less tin, and the ball will shatter on impact as bismuth is quite dense like lead? but rather brittle.
You can get ingots of Bismuth/Tin from Rotometals and they are certified and listed on the CA DFG approved non lead options.
Ken
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There was a gent who frequented this board, that wrote and article about his California deer hunt using ITX. He totally misrepresented ITX by stating in the article that the product was made with bismuth... BUT he did take a deer with ITX.
Also, Black Powder Magazine, produced an article about ML champion Steve Chapman testing ITX, and his conclusion was that ITX was not inherently as accurate as lead, but that it was accurate enough to hunt with as long as you did your part. He also mentioned the risk of dryballing.
Ken
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Good info, Ken.
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I forgot to mention that I believe our own Daryl also tested ITX roundball.
I have hunted with both ITX roundball and ITX shot. It works!!
The shot product is actually pretty good stuff. My favorite load is a duplex of #4 and #6 shot. I will admit the roundball product is kind of scary to use as you seriously do not want to dryball it... I also try to use the strongest patch material I can find, and usually use a pretty thin patch-- thinner that what I use for lead... not because it is more accurate, but because I am so fearful of getting the ball stuck in the bore.
Good luck.
Ken
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Thanks Ken, Good stuff. I was hoping you would chime in here as I know you hunt in California and have done some experimenting with non-lead muzzleloading projectiles. I ordered some of the solid brass round balls. We'll see how that goes before I try molding up some balls.
Cheers, Doug T.
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Doug, what zone are you going to be hunting? I hope you have a good hunt!
Ken
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ITX roundballs are made with a sintering process, where powdered metal (tungsten and iron) is combined with a malleable resin like substance, and heat injection molded. They are generally softer than barrel steel but very much harder than lead. The small shot version of the product can be crushed easily with a pair of pliers but not the larger roundball version.
Another important thing to consider is you cannot use a standard ball puller should you dry ball. You have to unbreech the barrel and push it out with a rod, OR use a c02 discharger.
Ken
WOW! That is interesting, never heard of such.
Thanks, Tim
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I did not know anything about it until I met up with Continuous Metal, a company located in Ridgway, PA. They are the parent company for TomBob Outdoors that makes ITX. I am still listed as a "pro staffer" for TomBob Outdoors, but have not spoken to them in years. I have ITX roundball stored away in .50 cal size and some in .62 size... probably enough to last me a lifetime. I did a lot of shooting and testing early on, but lately not so much. I use ITX shot in my smoothbore quite a bit though--- I find that it works very well on my local turkey and gray squirrels.
BUT... if I could do so legally, I would use lead to hunt with. These muzzleloading guns were made to shoot lead and that's what they do best. My work developing lead free roundball was in desperation-- to be able to hunt the way I love to hunt. Yeah... I feel the passion of wanting to practice civil disobedience and just ignore the crazy California laws, but I had a son I was raising to respect the Law, and that was more important to me. Today he is grown up well, and his response to crazy California was to move to Idaho where he can live free(er). Maybe I will join him someday, and hunt with lead again.
Ken
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Lead free pewter is no harder to cast than lead. Does it melt at a different temperature, I’m sure it does, experiment with it. If people on YouTube can cast fancy googaas in a silicone mold with pewter melted over a burner on the stove, I’m sure I can make a bullet or two with my lead pot, and a mold.
And by the way the CDFW has testers that can detect lead residue from a bullet hole.
Hungry Horse
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Lead free pewter is no harder to cast than lead. Does it melt at a different temperature, I’m sure it does, experiment with it. If people on YouTube can cast fancy googaas in a silicone mold with pewter melted over a burner on the stove, I’m sure I can make a bullet or two with my lead pot, and a mold.
And by the way the CDFW has testers that can detect lead residue from a bullet hole.
Hungry Horse
I have some britannia metal (one of the common lead free pewters) that I recently used to repair an old jewelry box. Britannia is 92% tin, 6% antimony, and 2% copper, and melts at just under 500f. I also have some Callahan bullet molds that have never been tested. Figured I'd give it a shot.
Was quite difficult to get it to pour into the mold, kept balling up and running over the side. Even after heating up the mold a good bit. Every time I've cast it into silicone, there was a much bigger hole. Maybe lead has a lower viscosity when melted, I've never actually tried to cast lead before. :-[ I'm not that experience at casting any metals either. This recent jewelry box repair was my first foray into that world.
Had to get it a bit hotter than I liked for it to flow into the mold, and even that took a couple tries. Ended up just heating the mold with the propane torch till the metal I had inside remelted. The nice thing about it, is that it takes almost no time to melt with a propane torch.
(https://i.ibb.co/VpDMVV6/Brittania-Casting.png) (https://ibb.co/Kz7V66n)
You can tell from the purple and yellow oxidization that it got hotter than optimal. Still perfectly serviceable. In the midst of remelting things I don't think I kept the mold closed all the way. No big deal, the flashing came off with a finger.
(https://i.ibb.co/7GQTs0y/Brittania-Casting-2.png) (https://ibb.co/vJhr0Mz)
Here's the weight of it compared to some identically sized lead balls from Kibler.
(https://i.ibb.co/y5hCYy1/Britannia-440-Ball-Weight.png) (https://ibb.co/J2xTy74)
(https://i.ibb.co/w7HbLxR/Lead-440-Ball-Weight.png) (https://ibb.co/MfTjh3s)
Lead seems to weigh almost exactly a third more. 33.46%
Ran some numbers to compare it to the brass balls. Pure lead seems to be around 11.348 g/cm3, and 260 Brass is 8.53 g/cm3. Lead weight is only 25% heavier than brass.
With a 58 caliber gun, I really don't know if those weight differences matter. It's possible that lead free pewter would expand better than brass. Could make up for lost weight.
Of course, you could also just work up a double ball load if you're worried about it. ;D
I've shot a bunch of .54 double ball loads, .58 can't be too much worse.
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Yes, pewter does melt at a low temp and is easy to mold, but pewter is not close in density to lead. If the goal is to have a projectile that will perform like lead both in accuracy and in the ethical harvesting of game, then it needs to have a similar density/weight. Sure, there are stories of the old dead guys melting pewter forks and spoons to make roundball in the case of a indian attack, but this was a desperation measure, and I doubt anyone won any shooting contest with it.
In my testing years ago, I tried using other easy to mold options, and none of them performed like lead. The lighter balls would bounce off my target or shatter with little penetration. With bismuth and tin, I was able to get "decent" penetration on my test target. (a thick piece of split poplar.) It was still not identical to lead but it was closer.
ITX non-lead roundball is very dense, and in my tests (baled, wet newspaper) it had significantly deeper penetration that lead did on a target. It has zero expansion however. Brass balls too will have zero expansion. Something to consider for sure. But in a .58 cal size, maybe expansion is not a deal breaker.
Both ITX and Brass will also have serious ricochet risk, so be careful shooting steel or gongs with it... If you drop a lead ball on a tile floor, it does not bounce. (thunk). If you drop an ITX ball on the floor, it will bounce. Brass? it too will bounce...
I don't know how the CA game wardens test in the field if you are using lead. I seriously doubt they do any testing at all. When I go out, I carry with me some of the product packaging for ITX. If I am using my own Bismuth/Tin roundball, then the game warden would need to take a sample or take my word for it. I have never encountered a game warden in my woods. With a muzzle loader, they cannot ask you to unload to show what's in your gun like a breechloader so... Its one of those funny laws that the details were not all thought out before it was enacted.
Ken
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I would think the bismuth/tin is what I would use in a .58.
The other option would be the .562" brass balls.
Had the ITX balls been smaller in dia. Like
.480" instead of .490", I am sure we could have tested them.
I now have a .50, but didn't when Ken sent them to me. Of course now that summer is here, I cannot do any testing. I'm busy for the summer.
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Thanks again Ken and Daryl. Ken, my tag is for X8. Which is basically East Slope Sierra, Alpine County. Carson Pass to Ebbets Pass. I have hunted the area a lot with a bow when I could get a tag. So this should be fun with my new Flintlock. I will try the Brass balls in .562, however, if I want to try molding some balls, what size mold should I consider? I read here that the Rotometals mixture will expand when cooling. Is there a formula to use to come up with the correct ball size? I'd rather not have to purchase several molds just for experimenting purposes. I will order a Callahan mold for running lead balls but am I correct that a non-lead mold will be a different size?
Thanks again,
Doug T.
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Yes the bismuth expands. hmmm I would try them in whatever mold you currently have, and measure the ball to see what the expansion is. Then order a custom callahan mold.
You might be able to contact Rotometals and they might have data. They are pretty decent folks.
Ken
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Thanks again Ken and Daryl. Ken, my tag is for X8. Which is basically East Slope Sierra, Alpine County. Carson Pass to Ebbets Pass. I have hunted the area a lot with a bow when I could get a tag. So this should be fun with my new Flintlock. I will try the Brass balls in .562, however, if I want to try molding some balls, what size mold should I consider? I read here that the Rotometals mixture will expand when cooling. Is there a formula to use to come up with the correct ball size? I'd rather not have to purchase several molds just for experimenting purposes. I will order a Callahan mold for running lead balls but am I correct that a non-lead mold will be a different size?
Thanks again,
Doug T.
Rotometals links to a forum thread discussing the stuff.
https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy.5585/
Sounds like it expands a bit, but not horribly. One user said .001-.002 and possibly another thousandth if the mold was really warm. Don't think that's really enough to worry about when you're shooting with a patched round ball.
I'd probably just buy a standard size mold and play with patches. If you're worried about it expanding more than that it shouldn't hurt anything to have a ball size slightly smaller. You'd just need thicker patches.
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As far as a mould goes, I would think in terms of a .562".