AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Dphariss on July 01, 2024, 09:22:47 PM
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Long gun: 50 yards RESTED anyway you like. Shooters may shoot 25 yards rest with a pistol.
Shooter may staple on an aiming point of their choice color/size/shape/location. But no sticky targets. It has to be removable without target damage to show the target for score.
You may shoot one shot per target (best idea IMO) or all 5 on one target if they are readable to score individual shots. Shoot as many targets as you like. HOWEVER. Shooting one shot per target means the targets shown for score need to be of consecutive shots. No cherry picking.
I recommend a piece of card board box for a backer it will make cleaner holes. Since its a rest match we will use center of hole to determine the score.
https://www.nssf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Target-Bullseye.pdf
Remember offhand is a poor test of a rifle.
I somehow dropped the photo of the target off this post in an edit. This is the target linked above.
(https://i.ibb.co/qN1vj6D/IMG-8541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPKRMZf)
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No but for those who don't have target rifles, offhand is a better test of the rifleman's skill. So are we testing the guns or the shooter? I'll take a pass on this one.
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No but for those who don't have target rifles, offhand is a better test of the rifleman's skill. So are we testing the guns or the shooter? I'll take a pass on this one.
Well you, after all, would know your abilities better than I. I like to shoot, win, loose or draw is irrelevant. I travel very long distances to shoot matches that I KNOW I can never win but I love the sport. A ML match where I live is 100+ miles one way. I do pretty well most times.
If you cannot shoot a group from a rest how can you shoot one standing? A person does not even need a zero for 50 yards for this. Shoot a shot or two at a piece of paper with your aiming point and just put the aiming point at a place on a score target where the sight picture will put the ball in the middle. But then a rifleman should know where his rifle shoots.
But then silly me, I thought this was about TRADITIONAL MLs so I cooked up something at least SOMEWHAT like what was shot back in the day. Where rest matches were the NORM. Off hand matches did not become popular until well into the percussion era when Schuetzen became a big money game in the US. The “chunk match” match never really died out in America. At least nit until after WW-I.
Hunting? I almost never shoot offhand at an animal if I can avoid it. I have done it a few times, range short and no way to do anything else since the critter had “made” me. But I really like prone or a rest.
And I dislike luck matches.
BTW an actual quote by Rev. Doddridge speaking of the frontier 1763-1783, reads “..The present mode of shooting off hand was not then in practice. This mode was not considered as any trial of a gun, nor indeed, as much of a test of the skill of a marksmen”.
Now I seem to remember the “poor test of a rifle” from somewhere but this is the one I have bookmarked in LaCrosse’s “The Frontier Rifleman”. It basically says the same thing with more verbage. It might be in “Colonial Riflemen in The American Revolution”. Or I somehow “translated” Doddridge.
And with the lock time of a flintlock its nearly impossible to shot group as small standing as I can with a BPCR with its slow lock time.
Then….
(https://i.ibb.co/CJBfLGt/IMG-8536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rbkV9rt)
So do you consider a 54 Kibler Colonial a “target rifle? Yeah it was shooting too high. So I put on a taller front sight.
With the proper aiming point it would do pretty well as it was on the target shown in my first post.
ITS A RIFLE MATCH. Rifles are supposed to shoot small groups.
But then America has always been populated with gun owners, shooters and riflemen. The first generally knows where the bullet comes out, the second can hit what he is shooting at if its big enough. The rifleman is more competent. He is the guy at Second Saratoga that shot Burgoyne's cannoneers off their guns, who killed British officers (General Frazier at 300 yards) and drove the British scouts back to Canada. Won at King’s Mountain and quite a few others as well. I try to be a rifleman, not just a gun owner.
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https://targets.s3.amazonaws.com/PDF/Bullseye1Multi.pdf
This is the target I get with your link. Can’t find the one you show in the picture.
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Dang dunno how that happened. Must had a loose nut at the keyboard
This should do it Will edit original as well
https://www.nssf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Target-Bullseye.pdf
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Thanks Dan. Works now.
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It doesn't take a lot to confuse me. There is only one target on your post that comes up. That is the one you shot with the Kibler colonial.
The link takes me to a target with a small bullseye and is a two page taped target.
Which is it?
Then your last post says one shot per target. The first link that Okabow posted goes to a target with 5 bulls on it. So now I am thoroughly confused.
Any how I'm not printing anything till this is clarified.
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This is the correct link.
https://www.nssf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Target-Bullseye.pdf
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It doesn't take a lot to confuse me. There is only one target on your post that comes up. That is the one you shot with the Kibler colonial.
The link takes me to a target with a small bullseye and is a two page taped target.
Which is it?
Then your last post says one shot per target. The first link that Okabow posted goes to a target with 5 bulls on it. So now I am thoroughly confused.
Any how I'm not printing anything till this is clarified.
The first post has the rules and the link. It also had a photo pf the target but when I changed the link to the correct one I somehow dropped that off.
I somehow got the wrong link initially. So the wrong target came up. DUNNO how but I screwed up. I corrected this in TWO PLACES.
The shot target? I was trying to point out that a typical hunting rifle should shoot well enough at 50 yards and that a target rifle was not needed. And the target was shot in 2022 as is written on the target. Its not even on the same post as the link.
No, its not a 2 page taped target.
THIS is the TARGET as my printer prints it. Note the size.
(https://i.ibb.co/qN1vj6D/IMG-8541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPKRMZf)
This is the link.
https://www.nssf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Target-Bullseye.pdf
And I said it could shot on ONE TARGET IF the shooter wants but needs to have 5 holes that can be scored and 5 shots in one hole can make this tough so its best to shoot FIVE targets.
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Thank you Dan. I will probably shoot this of Sticks. Our public range has great benches for CF rifles, but they leave a lot to be desired for muzzleloaders.
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Thank you! I’m going to try and get some shooting in this weekend
Tony
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Dan,
Your reply in post #2 is exactly as I see it.
All the best,
R.
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Ok, think I finally figured it out use an aiming point like the chunk shooters??
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Exactly.
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(https://i.ibb.co/3vPFWd9/IMG-1879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sCX1QRd)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zzgg1hs/IMG-1877.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qYggFRG)
(https://i.ibb.co/4J6MSYW/IMG-1876.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ybz8dy2)
(https://i.ibb.co/XjwH4y1/IMG-1875.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34JKsf2)
(https://i.ibb.co/t8QkMkc/IMG-1874.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0hm8j8Z)
Here are my 5 targets from this morning, I score it a 45?
.40 at 50 yds rested
Tony
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Good shooting, Tony.
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Good shooting Tony. However, you could have done it all on one target. I plan on shooting this and have my targets printed. I doubt that Dan is going to have a hard time deciphering where my shots are.
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Good shooting Tony. However, you could have done it all on one target. I plan on shooting this and have my targets printed. I doubt that Dan is going to have a hard time deciphering where my shots are.
I was afraid that all 5 shots would be in the 10 ring and make it hard to score. 😉
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Good shooting Tony. However, you could have done it all on one target. I plan on shooting this and have my targets printed. I doubt that Dan is going to have a hard time deciphering where my shots are.
I was afraid that all 5 shots would be in the 10 ring and make it hard to score. 😉
I have no such fear!
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Would have been a really nice group.
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Nice shooting.
Yes it is a 45.
You can lay each target on a sheet of paper one at a time and mark the holes to get a group on one sheet.
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Once you have figured out your sighting and are confident of your ability, you could staple 5 targets together and shoot once. For that matter you could just shoot at bundles of five targets till you hit a bullseye LOL.
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The rifle that I used was a .40 flint rifle that I use for Table Shooting, a form of shooting that’s similar to a chunk shoot.
Tony
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Shooting Dorothy, my .54 Jaeger, 70 gr 2F a .535 RB a .018 patch Hoppes Lube, sand bag rest on bench. I have it sighted for 3inch high at 50 yards, so used pink sticky notes for my aim point.
(https://i.ibb.co/hM72z6n/July-postal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rt75rjL)
target 1
(https://i.ibb.co/dPPDNGX/July-D1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VggTF2b)
target 2
(https://i.ibb.co/v4SHBXK/July-D2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qYvdnJP)
target 3
(https://i.ibb.co/WzCXDVX/July-D3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t2R6ZL6)
target 4
(https://i.ibb.co/WPVH4x3/July-D4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQXc6wB)
and 5
(https://i.ibb.co/QmsPBbS/July-D5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/12HrVvy)
Looks like a 43 to me.
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I agree 43.
I will be on the road or at Camp Perry for about 2 weeks starting Saturday but will try to keep up on this. But its hectic. Packing right now.
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Good luck at your "shoot" Dan.
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yep, have fun at that little gathering ;)
Cool place to shoot.
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Took my other .54 Jaeger out today. Evelyn has a Moody barrel, fast twist of 1:30, narrow lands and wide grooves. I have not decided yet on a best round ball load for this gun, though I keep hoping to find a happy medium for it and the other. (Dorothy has a Douglas barrel 1:48, wide lands narrower grooves, results posted yesterday.) At present I have Evelyn adjusted for 3" high at 50 yards. Knowing it would not group as well as the other rifle I used a single target for all 5 shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/sHFjGqV/Evelyn-score-36.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLNJHQr)
I put it at a 36 score.
Some day soon I am going to run some Minie bullets through her and see what I get for accuracy.
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Good luck at your "shoot" Dan.
I will surely need it and divine guidance.
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yep, have fun at that little gathering ;)
Cool place to shoot.
I shoot FLs, other bp rifles and unmentionables in competition. I like to shoot.
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Took my other .54 Jaeger out today. Evelyn has a Moody barrel, fast twist of 1:30, narrow lands and wide grooves. I have not decided yet on a best round ball load for this gun, though I keep hoping to find a happy medium for it and the other. (Dorothy has a Douglas barrel 1:48, wide lands narrower grooves, results posted yesterday.) At present I have Evelyn adjusted for 3" high at 50 yards. Knowing it would not group as well as the other rifle I used a single target for all 5 shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/sHFjGqV/Evelyn-score-36.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLNJHQr)
I put it at a 36 score.
Some day soon I am going to run some Minie bullets through her and see what I get for accuracy.
I see 36 as well
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Have you tried a heavy linen patch? I find heavy linen at fabric-store(dot)com.
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I suggest you try lighter loads for Evelyn. I have a lady friend who was trying to shoot round balls in her 1 in 28 twist inline.
She was shooting 55 grains of Triple 7 behind her .495 Hornady balls. She is not a Novice shooter; she is a Master Bullseye competitor.
She was shooting off the bench at 50 yards and her group was a bit larger than yours.
I suggested she lower her load to 30 grains. Her groups improved dramatically. All she had to do was adjust elevation on her sights.
She is not a hunter but wanted to shoot the inline her husband had bought her, without getting beat up with recoil when using saboted bullets and heavy powder charges.
Just a thought.
70 grains 2f is my plinking load on my .54 flintlock. It has a 1in 72 twist rate.
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The Moody barrel in Evelyn has a good cone for starting ball and patch, the .535 RB and .018 patch is pretty tight. In fact, before I had the breach plug in I had to gently push to get a .535 ball through and it came out just slightly engraved by the narrow lands.
I have thought about lowering the charge, and may test this for targets, but did want it to have enough energy to punch through a WTD, out maybe to 75 yards (which is about the farthest I can see in my woods).
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Folks that think about coning should read the description of the Hawken barrel in John Baird’s “Hawken Rifles The Mountain Mans Choice”. It was surely measured by TK Dawson. Its not what people are doing now.
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I used a universal coning tool one of the members here sells. Needed to do something after shortening the barrel or those tight narrow lands would have torn patches when loading. Not sure if it is HC, but it works.
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Went out to the range yesterday. I used my offhand target flintlock. It has a 40 inch by one-inch atf Douglass XX barrel in .45 cal.
I used 60 grains Dupont 3f with a .451 ball batched with bear lubed canvass.
I used this target as a aiming point.
(https://i.ibb.co/0KMmhx1/0721240549.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypydWrK)
I simply shot 5 shots at it and placed the smaller target centered on the center of the group.
It was sunny and not too breezy when I shot at this target. By the time we had a seize fire and was able to place a score target under it, a storm blew in the sun was gone and the wind became strong and variable.
The wind kept gusting and changing direction on my first scoring target,
(https://i.ibb.co/n1v5vJG/0721240548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WzwYwJh)
I didn't notice that I posted the target upside down under the sighting target. There are two holes in the seven ring on the right.
They called a seize fire after my fourth shot. So I placed a target below the other target and shot it without a sighting target over it.
(https://i.ibb.co/njqvGnG/0721240548b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PgsnL9L)
It is my best target with a 41. That little dot is hard to see.
I shot one more target under the sighting target but by then the wind got pretty unpredictable and I lost track of it on my last shot. I also placed that one upside down.
(https://i.ibb.co/6YjBSGb/0721240548a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p2YyTNZ)
I plan to go out again where I can use my cross sticks, and don't have to deal with the range seize fires.
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Nice targets, alacran!
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Dan,
As I promised you, I finally had an opportunity to try the July target. By the way, I VERY much appreciate you having a shoot from a rest and somewhat old fashioned in its approach.Shooting from a bench alllows us old guys an opportunity to more effectively participate. My 81 year-old-eyes let me down today and I just couldn't seem to get the groups to center. Oh well, still had fun trying. I scored it as 43.
(https://i.ibb.co/6FkVFgD/July-2024-ALR-Postal-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/njFZjzQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/M6wRN2h/July-2024-ALR-Postal-Close-up007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HdwrgF2)
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That’s a very good group!
Tony
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I was spotting for JB today. The lighting was terrible. He did some good shooting. My test group to see where mine was hitting was so bad I didn’t bother. On JB’s target the second hole from the right is two shots through a slightly enlarged hole. God bless, Marc
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Good shooting, very nice group JB. 43 is correct.
Dan
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The double hit in that hole is obvious.
Nice group.
My fishing rods dont shoot very well
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First let me say Good Shooting JBJ. I hope I can shoot that good ten years from now.
I went out yesterday to the creek bottom and set up cross sticks and lasered my target at 50 yards.
I shot the same rifle and load as on my last outing. .45 caliber Douglass barreled flintlock. 60 grains Dupont 3f, bear lubed canvas with ,451 balls.
This is my offhand flintlock target rifle. Haven't shot it off sticks in quite a while.
My first target was my best target even though it started with an 8 due to a sighting error or whatever.
(https://i.ibb.co/fYZNM9q/0730240426.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWbCVxJ)
I score it a 44 but it may be a 45. I ran out of 50# paper and the 20# paper doesn't cut as cleanly.
I made a sight adjustment for my second target but I went one click too many.
(https://i.ibb.co/fYB3y7x/0730240426a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XZNnKTC)
I score it a 40. Easier to score a crappy target.
My third target I changed back to my original sight setting. I did have a slightly slow fire on my second shot, but I should have held through better.
(https://i.ibb.co/b7Gt9ps/0730240427.jpg)[/url
I score it a 43.
Not a big fan of shooting from a rest, but it lets you know that your rifle is capable.
(https://ibb.co/0Qz5bPC)
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Thanks for the kind words. I agree that rest shooting will test the rifle's capabilities AND it will also test your abilities to manage the care and feeding of the rifle AND your ability to read light, etc., etc. Clearly, I didn't do so well reading the light nor being alert enough to shift my aiming "bud" in a timely manner. Perhaps my eyesight isn't the only thing that's getting wonky ;D. These days, offhand shooting is but a distant memory - so I'll just watch until the next "rested" postal match comes along. BUT it's all fun! Thanks, Dan.
J.B.
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I spent way too much time looking at Alacran's #1 even shining a light though it and a super imposed clean target on a glass table top. Given that it appears that the black circle obscures the "leaded edge" of the closest to center hole that is obvious on the others and would make it a 10. I can only call what I can see. But a 44 is the win anyway. So congratulations to alacran and to the other shooters as well. Pretty close race at the top.
Back from Camp Perry last night then remembered I needed to find the winner here..... Shot some decent scores but not in the one I really wanted to do well in. But one must keep one's brain in gear at all times. And mine seems to have jumped into neutral at the wrong time and I shot too many 9s.
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Guys, I must have missed something or miss counted, but didn't Tony N turn in a 45 on his July 6th post of 5 separate targets? Might be my wonky eyes again ;D
J.B.
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I concur with JBJ. Tony N turned in a 45. I scored my target a 44.
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OKI have to recant here.
TONY won with a 45
Dang I hate that.
How I missed this I cannot say.
But I was still not 100% after 1 1/2 days at the speed limit in 7 states so forgive me.
Just spaced it but I did have a pretty busy 2 weeks getting up at 4 am most days.
Please forgive.
Dan
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That was a very close match with 3 or 4 of us within 2 pts of each other! Rested at 50 yds isn’t as easy as it sounds to me.
I would like to try this target again, same rules as July, unless someone has a better idea?
Tony
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Have you tried a heavy linen patch? I find heavy linen at fabric-store(dot)com.
What weight do you order, Dan? Most of it seems light but I did see some 10oz
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10 to 11 ounce should be perfect.
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Big duck canvas. 10.10 60 inches wide. I read about it on the site. It is unbelievable stuff and cheap. I have shot Teflon for years, this stuff with moose milk shoots as good as my best Teflon. If any one cares it measures about .021.
If I knew how computers work I would post pics of some of my groups.
Michael
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Michael I don't know how computers work either, but post pics here all the time. If you do a search on how to post pictures, you will quickly become able to do so.
10 ounce denim also measured .021" and shoots well in all my guns.
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I am having back surgery on Tuesday. Doc thinks I will be able to shoot off hand again. If so I will learn how to post pics and shoot some of the matches, always looked like fun, but I have not shot off hand in four or fives years.
Michael
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The more the merrier.
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Good luck on your surgery Michael. Hope your staying away from all those fires.
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Surgery got moved back a week. No fires in our area.
Thanks,
Michael
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If I understood Tony N, the August match is a repeat of the July shoot - same target, same distance same rest/bench shooting. Thank you, Tony! Post surgery (which we all hope goes well), you may find the bench/table easier to deal with than offhand. Us old geezers find bench matches easier to manage than ofhand. As Daryl said, the more the merrier!
Marc and I expect the range to be saturated following Debby, but as soon as we are able, we will give it another try.
J.B.