AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: GBenson on August 17, 2024, 08:27:40 AM
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Hello all,
Long story short is I saved this from going to the dump or a gun buyback. This was in a since dissolved collection of a friend of a ex coworker. His wife isn’t into firearms at all but this survived the first separation of the collection by hiding under a bed. The ask was to make sure the remaining weapons were safe to hang around and what to do with them. The other two were pretty unremarkable but this stuck out to me as unique. Full disclosure I shoot allot but mostly modern precision rifle. Most if not all of my experience with muzzleloaders is a kit hawkin rifle I put together in my high school years. I’m hoping you guys can provide a little information on what remains of this rifle. At this time this is not mine, I totally wanted it for curiosity sake but now after my preliminary research this I suppose could be worth something and I’m in no way trying to swindle the owner who seemed more then happy to give it away.
(https://i.ibb.co/jGHsLYb/IMG-3361.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y5V78Cd)
(https://i.ibb.co/Km3BhMD/IMG-3362.jpg) (https://ibb.co/52fC4Nk)
(https://i.ibb.co/tH4NttS/IMG-3363.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRGYwwm)
(https://i.ibb.co/bJFMxHQ/IMG-3364.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hfcJkXL)
(https://i.ibb.co/JjJb8NJ/IMG-3367.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzDwv3D)
(https://i.ibb.co/g3stzWX/IMG-3366.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VtXM2Ch)
(https://i.ibb.co/0sSK4Gd/IMG-3365.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sf8cY39)
(https://i.ibb.co/7vvZPCr/IMG-3368.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JnnGVtr)
(https://i.ibb.co/yyzHfhq/IMG-3369.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zR3qn8Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/qyYj0Pp/IMG-3370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLzXHkx)
(https://i.ibb.co/bWnq88R/IMG-3371.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NVzQHHn)
(https://i.ibb.co/pP0gMmt/IMG-3372.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yRfDZ3w)
(https://i.ibb.co/FYSnbNp/IMG-3373.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C9kW5NL)
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Known issues include
1. Barrels are separated and held together by cord (I’m assuming these were soldered together originally like double rifles?)
2. Ramrod journals and bent inward towards the barrel joint (looks like it’s taken a few falls in its time with no ramrod to brace the journals)
3. The brass panels on both side are very loose and it appears peened over iron nails are holding them together but barley
4.both barrels have a significant amount of corrosion or gunk by the nipples with significant pitting.
5. Latch for the barrels doesn’t really lock anything together the way I think it should work.
6. At some point an angle grinder was used to thin out the hammer that may not be original as it doesn’t really line up with the nipples.
7. Lower tang is broken off at a screw hole and the upper one took a hit and is bent.
8. Missing stock, trigger, ramrod, trigger guard (integrated to the lever to unlock barrels?)
9.muzzle end seems significantly opened up from use
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Questions
1. It’s super cool what can you tell me about it
2. Is it worth anything so I can give a honest offer to the current owner (I’m pretty interested in it for some reason)
3. Is this something that could be restored/restocked (not interested in ever firing it but it’s just so neat)
4. Were swivel breach’s a common rifle in the early 1800’s (I’m assuming that the period of this rifle)
5. Am I correct in thinking this was originally a flintlock converted to percussion(looks like some filled in holes under the fixture the nipple screws into)
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This thing is just so cool and I’m really glad regardless that it didn’t end up at a dump or in a scrap metal bin. Any info is appreciated! This being my first post I suppose I should introduce myself. I’m a 40 year old paramedic by trade and precision rifle builder as a hobby. Out in California on the coast and enjoy tinkering with just about anything mechanical. This thing is in rough shape but just seems like a piece of history that would be so cool to bring back to a complete state.
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https://lamasterarms.com/products/virtual-show-nicholas-hawk-swivel-breech-rifle
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You might try contacting JTR from this site. He is the Hawk king out in Ca. He might see this and offer some help. Olut and Bill Paton from this site have handled more swivels than the rest of us put together . I'm sure they will offer insight when they see this. I wouldn't say swivels were common but they arn't rare. N. Hawk was known for making fine swivels and that is a meaningful find to those of us that are interested in these things. If it was offered to me for a thousand dollars I would grab it and run.
Other opinions may vary. Jim
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GBenson, That was a nice Nicolas Hawk. Are you sure the butt stock isn't still around with the owner?
The link that A Scanlan posted shows a complete rifle, so you have an idea of what the butt end would look like. By the way, I owned the gun in the auction for many years, and did the restoration work on it.
You're right in that your gun was originally a flintlock.
Just as a thought, you might put a Want Ad here, looking for a Hawk Butt stock. Making a new butt stock wouldn't be too difficult, but making the patchbox and inlays would be difficult, as he liked to engrave, and had a very distinctive engraving style, and that would be difficult to replicate.
I wonder where your located in Ca? I'm near San Diego. Message me here, if you want to talk about your gun.
Jim, Thanks for mentioning me, out here on this lonely coast! :-)
John
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Nice find, GBenson!
In addition to the above comments, with which I fully agree, my first choice for the rifle would be to keep it as is with judicious stabilization but no restoration attempts. I think they might mess up Hawk’s fine work and mislead future students as to how Nicolas made his beautiful guns. He had many unique features he used to construct these swivel rifles, and they should be preserved. If it is ever restored, it should be done by somebody who understands and sticks to Hawk’s original methods.
Hawk did not solder his barrels together, although I know of two of his rifles that were soldered together as secondary reconstructions. He used opposing dovetails on the meeting barrel flats, and held them together with elegant “bow tie” wedges capped on one end with a button-like head. The brass ribs have a bow tie hole on one side surrounded by oval engraving to surround the head of the wedge. Opposite to that is a round hole in the other brass rib for a punch to drive out the wedge while the ribs remain riveted together like rails once the barrels are removed. Your ribs show those holes.
The iron rivet you mention is really brass in the specimens I have seen, and the ribs have several holding them together to each other permanently after the barrels are removed.
If you remove the barrels from the front swivel plate, the vertical screw through the plate holding the breech plugs needs to be removed first to avoid damage.
Note that the tumbler has no internal bridle. Although this is commonly thought of as a very early feature in locks, it is also considered a later cheap alternative used in poor quality locks. I think Hawk used this method to narrow his delicate profile on his guns. Dispensing with the bridle narrows the action by at least 1/8”.
His swivel release was unique, as well, with the entire trigger guard sliding backward to unlatch the locking spring lugs.
If attempts at restoration are made, make sure they are done by carefully following Nicolas Hawks original methods. Otherwise the result will be a 21st century cobbled together fantasy gun instead of an accurate and valuable piece of history.
Nice find! Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska (As JTR stated, It’s a bit lonely up here on the North coast, too ;-)
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GBenson, I forgot to add you should check to be sure the barrels are not still loaded!
To do this, run a rod down each barrel, and mark the depth on the rod. Then lay the rod along side the barrel with the depth mark at the muzzle. If the barrel isn't loaded, the end of the rod should line up about the rear side of the percussion drum.
If the rod stops an inch or so ahead of the drum, the barrel is probably still loaded. It's not uncommon to find these old guns still loaded!
John
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Thanks all!! I’m just seeing this and got to drive home from a match. I’ll read through more completely this evening when I get home and cool off after roasting all day. Super appreciate the responses so far!
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Note carefully Dr Paton's construction comments. Bill's got enough hands-on experience (and probably excellent photographs of the mechanism) to assist in any reconstruction. This once quality gun need careful and judicious restoration to be done ONLY by a talented craftsman who is a student of these guns. If the stock is indeed missing, there are many high quality images of Hawk's typical patchbox, stock shape, trigger, cheekpiece inlay, etc to guide the rebuild. Get it done right by a skilled craftsman and preserve this gun for future generations... or sell it to add to my extensive collection of percussion over under firearms
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If it were mine I would have it restocked with the correct architecture but not put any copied engraving elements if that makes sense.
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If it were mine I would have it restocked with the correct architecture but not put any copied engraving elements if that makes sense.
Shreck, If it were mine, I'd probably do the same. It's still going to need a butt plate, trigger guard, trigger, etc. so it would at least look like a full rifle again.
Also, I wonder what's going on at the breech end, in that it looks like a couple inches of barrel have been added at some point?
GBenson, If you need pictures of the works, I took pictures of everything when I was restoring mine, and would be happy to share them with you.
I should add that I still have a regular Nicolas Hawk rifle, if you need any stock, etc, dimensions.
Here's a link to the one I owned for many years and restored. This will give you an idea of what the butt stock should look like. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3845.0
John
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Wonderful save. Would love to see it completely disassembled and the breeches removed. To see what ti going on there can buy cheap deep hole cameras that run off a cell phone. If you are worried about it being loaded this would tell the tale.
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John I would like to see the before pictures if you have them.
Thanks Dave
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John I would like to see the before pictures if you have them.
Thanks Dave
Dave, I worked on that rifle about 15 years ago, and the only pictures I have now are of the swivel works taken apart and lock internals.
I owned that rifle for many years, and wish I still had it.
The pictures I have are a bunch like this one, showing all the pieces and how they fit together.
(https://i.ibb.co/mFhqn70/Hawk-Works-033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KzVqtHD)
(https://i.ibb.co/6mDFgLS/Hawk-Works-031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SPVBRGg)
It looks like Mr. GBenson has departed this thread, and I wonder if he sold the barrels?
It would be interesting to know after all the comments posted here for him.....
John
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Thank you for the pictures, I was hoping he would contact you and you would have more information for him. I hate to see these old guns destroyed. Dave P.
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Hi all,
Super sorry for the few months delay in getting back to everyone who helped give me some context on these barrels. Family issues that pushed this way to the back of the line.
Quick update is i still have the barrels and when the owner gets back from a international trip were set to talk about a reasonable offer to make them mine.
I'm fully unsure what the next step will be for these if i end up owning them. I have a few other projects in the works (Remington No.7 from a casting kit) that are ahead of this. For one i don't have the skill or knowledge to restock or "restore it" at this point. I'm not interested in selling it if it becomes mine but more likely to try and get a stock and some of the missing parts together in the meantime.
Regardless ill update this thread once it becomes mine and whatever direction this find takes me.
Thanks everyone for your combined knoledge and enthusiasm in helping me figure out what this actually was. Again sorry for the delay i didn't mean to ask and run just hada family issue that required my full attention.
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Nice to hear from you again. And good luck with your acquisition and restoration on the rifle.
For your restoration, you might follow this link to a Hawk rifle currently for sale. https://lamasterarms.com/products/virtual-show-nicholas-hawk-swivel-breech-rifle
This rifle is about the same original quality of yours, so this will give you a good idea of what you're shooting for.
As for finding original parts, I've never seen any for sale, but then I wouldn't be surprised that someone on this forum might have something in the back of the safe!
Good luck, and don't forget to show us the results!
John
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Thank you sir. Those photos are super helpful!